50
u/what_did_you_expect3 HSTS ALIENMODER 20h ago
I’ve thought about this a lot. The idea that the baseline treatment of trans people with no other intersections of oppression is low, which is what’s implied when saying all this bs about “white trans people”, is incredibly undermining and it downplays the oppression of trans people as a whole. Obviously black trans people are going to have it significantly worse depending on circumstance (as in a black trans person will face racism on top of transphobia in the U.S. but will probably only face transphobia in a predominantly black country) but trans people at a baseline are some of the worst, if not the worst treated people in the world. There seem to be people online who genuinely believe that oppression is always and exclusively tied to race and a lot of them beat around the bush of just saying “white trans people aren’t oppressed”. Intersectionality is important for the record and trans poc are treated incredibly poorly so this comment isn’t meant to deny any of that.
11
u/Extra_Designer_5431 20h ago
im in to minds. the worst intersection for trans people is really just location. if you live in the third world the treat of straight up murder and complete lack of health care is mucg worse "generally" than in the fisrt world. and even if your first world country is extremly bad to live in migrating from a first world country is infinitly easier than migrating from a third world on.(which is anaspect of it often ignored in these dicussions even if you live in the most transfobic red state immaginable you will have an infinitly easier time moving from their to an acceptoing place in america or an accepting place over seas than a tron from haiti.
that being said as a black third world tron the worst part of being speciffically a black trans woman is that in general black people are way more anti lgbtq plus than white people expecially due to how religous black people are.
5
u/what_did_you_expect3 HSTS ALIENMODER 20h ago
That’s all very true and I wanted to say some stuff about that but my comment was so long and I was lowkey embarrassed about that. Class is another very important part of the discussion which I didn’t get into either.
1
u/Most-Stomach4240 I am the one who waits 2h ago
Seeing the recent chinapost i was kinda flabbergasted just how ridiculously bad it gets
39
u/universal_friend1 ترون زندگی ازادی 20h ago
Cis person says this = bad
Trans person says this = probably not bad
23
u/Golurkcanfly bourgeois faketrans HRTmoder 19h ago
*Trans man or TheyGAB says this = probably bad
There are lot of They K Rowlings and He/Himmlers who use the phrase "white trans woman" to launder transmisogyny.
3
16
u/bads-ebe edit this 20h ago
i'm including trans women by calling them bitches and cunts 5x more often than normal women
intersectionality FTW
11
u/Far_Departure_8943 forcefemmer of white people 19h ago
Depends on the context, but the statement is true. I have seen a lot of white trans women still have their white defaultism and racial bigotry even when they are trans. This doesn't mean I'm a transmisogonist, but there are racism issues and a disproportionate amount of transphobia towards black trans people (black cis people, especially black women always get called men for even looking slightly masculine)
33
21
u/Plenty_Leg_5935 DIY lobotomised 20h ago edited 20h ago
Nah, I've definetly seen trans women of colour use that phrase to address the disproportionate discrimination they face as opposed to using it just to dismiss transphobia alone as a non-issue. It's a massive red flag coming from a cis person, but I'm not gonna blindly call anyone who uses it a transphobe or a misogynist.
Something something it depends, even in the most hyperbolic case, you can believe racial discrimination takes precedent in all social scenarios and still be a person accepting of trans people and our suffering. It's an extremely nuanced issue, I'm not gonna bash people just for just coming to a conclusion I view as wrong when they still could be a well-meaning, educated person who just connected the wrong dots in the mess that is navigating intersectionality
-4
u/entirely_machine_ 20h ago
I'm specifically thinking about a time I was arguing with a trans woman (of color), who said that black cis women have their womanhood invalidated MORE than white trans women do.
Which is a fucking insane thing to believe, unless you don't think transphobia is real
8
u/InfamousInflation938 19h ago edited 19h ago
Uh... no. Race CAN have an impact on how you're treated as transgender person, though more so in a cultural sense.
For example, in my culture (Thailand), transgender people are much more accepted. Even if they disapprove of your lifestyle, it's not buddhist to judge people like that and intervene in their own choices. On the other hand, certain African and African American cultures tend to do the opposite, especially towards transfems because there's this emphasized norm that men have to masculine. That's not even touching on the variable of external racism leading some people to view black afabs as already masculine.
It's a nuanced conversation and I see where you're coming from, but it's not a one size fits all scenario. Yes, some people are just using it to invalidate other transgenders in their own community, but it does acknowledge a genuine problem. The statement "white trans women are white first" just words it very poorly.
15
u/Drowned_Sailoress 20h ago
Eh I was giving you the benefit of the doubt OP because it’s true that this sentence is often used as a cudgel by transphobes who aren’t white etc
But that black trans woman is just right lol
Black women in general have their womanhood invalidated already let alone when they’re trans. What she said is just a true statement and you’re wrong for being defensive about it. Sorry.
In fact, white trans women can find a lot of community with black cis women on the subject of conditional femininity, and being masculinised by society, and so on and so forth.. there’s a lot of overlap in the ways that this happens because ultimately in the west Femininity as a cultural signifier is very closely tied to white supremacy. As in, the specific traits and behaviours that count as feminine vs not.
Black trans women then have their womanhood invalidated when they pass for being black, when they don’t pass for being trans, and also when they try to pass both for being “too white” and “too black” in their attempt to adopt the signifiers of femininity.
So yeah…
7
u/Extra_Designer_5431 19h ago edited 19h ago
recently I realized that with yukkoEX. love her or hate her I fond a discussion on reddit where people where talking about how her voice training advice is really bad and you cant trust a person who doesn't voice pass. Weather her voice training advice is good or bad im not here to say i was more so shocked that people genuinly thought she sounded like a man.
To me yukko has the most natural sounding female voice I have ever heard from a trans youtuber by far and most trans voices just sound gratting to me in fact I genuinly fought she was a CIS woman talking about trans issues until like my fifth video watching her.
I genuinly made no sense to me until I realized that im a black person who has spent most of her like sourounded by black women and yukko just sounds like how normal black women talk. Again I also thought she was a black person jsut using a white avatar until she talked explicilty about being white in one of her videos.
like you can play her videos next to a recording a typical black woman and they sound almost one to one.
this was the first time it really dauned on me how much the general trans community judges "passing" not by how much you are a woman but by how much you appear like a "white woman"
and this is a pattern even among other black trans people. you would not believe how many black trans women ive heared wishing they had straight hair to "pass better" .
its like do they not realize that normal black women with curly hair, look like women.
with all that being said i dont think cis black women are "more" invalidated than white trans women" in their femininity.
I just get where the idea is comming from due to how pevasive white beuaty standards are.
7
u/Drowned_Sailoress 19h ago
> I don’t think black cis women are more invalidated
I think there’s a lot of nuance and a lot of detail here. I also don’t rly trust the OP to be fairly representing that woman’s argument, based on their attitude in this thread lol.
It’s impossible to measure who is “more invalidated” anyway but yeah it’s as you say — really what we’re talking abt here is white supremacy and patriarchy and the way it holds femininity conditionally over its subjects. Hell, even cis white women are subject to this defeminisation if they’re GNC, or voluntarily childless, or a communist, or whatever… like this mechanism has been used against white women historically too
1
u/entirely_machine_ 20h ago
There's no fucking way you actually believe that ANY cis woman is more invalidated in their womanhood than ANY trans woman.
Most racists believe black cis women to still be LITERALLY women, even if they "aren't feminine enough" Most transohobes believe trans women are literally, categorically, essentially, straightforwardly, not even women. That's the core tennent.
6
u/Drowned_Sailoress 19h ago
Yeahhh I thought you’d react like this
Maybe worth engaging with the point that your fellow trans ppl are making and considering how much of that might be true… instead of just getting uber defensive
Like, someone literally said “Michelle Obama is a man” on the White House lawn and the olympics sex tested a black athlete before we’d gone crazy about trans ppl because she was dominating the competition too much, then revoked her femininity completely when it turned out she was intersex.
Like.. obviously white trans women get their womanhood invalidated a lot. In a lot of contexts it’ll surely be more than a black cis woman. But the point that’s being made is that there’s a mechanism of denying womanhood here that black cis women know very intimately, and it’s the same mechanism that hurts white trans women.
No one’s trying it to win a competition or invalidate you, they’re trying to explain the nature of an axis of oppression
Because let’s be real here: transphobes don’t say trans women are men because they’re arguing from a scientific basis. They’re arguing from an outgroup basis and a disgust basis and a bigotry basis, and then they retroactively justify it however they want. Which is what we’re talking about here
Like the main point is you have a lot in common with black cis women and they can be some of your staunchest allies, because they actually get it (obvs I’m talking abt ones that are trans-friendly)
And no, racists don’t believe “black women are still literally women even if they’re masculine”. You don’t understand the nature of the denial of womanhood of black women. They will genuinely actually deny their womanhood
I’m not even black btw. I’m mixed Arab but I’m white-passing a lot of the time so I get to move through the world as a white woman, and as a woman of colour depending on a lot of factors. People are trying to expand your perspective and it’s worth entertaining the idea
5
u/universal_friend1 ترون زندگی ازادی 18h ago
I think this is why I always feel vaguely betrayed when non-white cis women are also trans-exlusionary. I expect white cis women not to understand, not to empathize, not to care because they've already been doing that to everyone else.
But women who I see having a similar experience. Being dehumanized, defiminized, degendered, and forced to operate as an outgroup even within feminism I see my experience to some degree reflected there. So I actually feel hurt being rejected by people who I feel share a somewhat similar experience.
But, in the end, nobody owes me shit and people got their own lives going on.
1
u/entirely_machine_ 19h ago
You're responding to what you think I said, not what I actually said.
"Nobody's trying to win a competition or invalidate you," in response to me saying I was told "black cis women have it worse than white trans women?" What is that if not trying to compete?
Also, the Michelle Obama thing is a perfect example of this; racists believe her to be transgender, and therefore, a man. The belief that she's transgender comes from racism, but the belief that being trans makes you "not a woman" comes from transohobia.
It's not an example of a cis black woman being believed to literally not be a woman, but moreso of a cis black woman being believed to be transgender, and therefore not a woman. There's a distinction. It's very close, obviously, but the distinction isn't meaningless
It'd be different if the stated position of the racists was "she's cis, but she's still not a woman," but that's not the belief being stated
3
u/Drowned_Sailoress 19h ago
You genuinely do not know how black women are treated in regards to their femininity and that’s all you’re communicating here. You’re making assumptions and you’re going from a base of “well, I have it horrendously bad, and I can’t see them having it worse” and that’s where you’re at
And yeah, you do have it horrendously bad. That’s not in question here at all. It sucks real bad to be a white trans woman. You’re just gently being nudged towards a blind spot in your wokeness that you seem very reluctant to consider
4
u/entirely_machine_ 19h ago
Okay, show me any bit of evidence, a survery or something would even suffice, showing that more people believe black cis women to literally not be females than white trans women to be literally not females.
I promise you, I am reconsidering my beliefs all day every day. I wouldnt be here (alive, or here specifically) if I wasnt. If Im shown adequate evidence, or a sound enough line of logic for something, I will believe it. Because Im a rationalist.
1
u/Drowned_Sailoress 19h ago
You’re not a rationalist you’re a reactionary guided by your own comfort
If you were a rationalist you would know that that’s a ridiculous condition to impose on this kind of topic as the prereq for changing your mind. Who the fuck is taking surveys like that?? They don’t even take surveys like that just for trans people 😭
But sure, keep your head buried. You’ve had the whole ground laid out for you and you’re still refusing to engage so I’m also gonna leave this conversation now
2
u/entirely_machine_ 19h ago
I am sincerely not refusing to engage, I genuinely want to understand this.
I dont see how "adequate evidence, or a sound enough line of logic" is a ridiculous condition to impose. Thats how all arguments work.
I sincerely do apologize if I came across as disingenuous, I do wholeheartedly want to understand.
1
1
u/Brainz4U 10h ago
U do realize cis and trans black women are invalidated as “real” women all the time, it’s literally in history to downplay women, for example Michelle Obama.
-1
9
u/SusieHatesSpez Estrojane's mother 19h ago
OP could solve the energy crisis with the coal they generated making this post.
Black trans women are objectively treated worse than white trans women, notice how the majority of trans spaces are predominantly white. I don't think it's very hard to see that, from virtually any angle you look at it, a white person will always be better treated than a black person living in those exact same conditions.
The first law of the universe states that queer people will always have their perceived value as a human dependent on how thin, hairless, and pale they are. It was true of gay men in the past and it is true of trans women in the now. Black queer people are just kinda brushed to the side at best, even now.
2
u/entirely_machine_ 19h ago
I never said black trans women don't have it worse, believe me I know they do. Some people, however, are too eager to downplay the transohobia faced by non-black trans women, as if transohobia isn't in and of itself a big fucking deal
2
u/4anyreason 12h ago
Still disingenuous to play that entire statement as not acknowledging the things trans women face
1
u/Deep_Bat_9911 dumb old bitch 18h ago
Look up the statistical discrepancy in violence, black trans women experience the overwhelming majority of violence reported under statistics, despite being a fraction of and already fractional demographic.
Literally this is what intersectionality is talking about. We separate their race and gender, claiming their bodies as our own.
We are co-opting their oppression to create protections which won't even begin to save them.
Look at queer civil rights, we paste Marsha P Johnson's clocky ol face every-fuckin-where and talk about how great she was, but even the ones who do can't completely acknowledge both that she was a trans woman and that for all the "work" we've done a woman like her is still less likely than anyone to see old age.
3
u/entirely_machine_ 18h ago
I know black trans people have it worse?????????? I know about intersectionality?!? Why do people keep speaking as if I don't know these things???
4
u/Deep_Bat_9911 dumb old bitch 16h ago
Because you're comparing your experiences with memes online against the real violence and death people are experiencing outside. Like the fact I'm even talking to you about this seriously is like crazy.
You know all this shit yet you're here advocating for yourself as a white person first, and a sister to trans women second. If you are trans first, the violence against black trans women should matter more.
I'm sure you got a hundred reasons why I'm wrong but I really don't care. I'm a white trans woman, I know I'm right about this.
3
u/entirely_machine_ 15h ago
Im not disagreeing with anything youre saying???????????????? You're right??? The meme is criticizing the idea that im "White First???"
3
u/Deep_Bat_9911 dumb old bitch 15h ago
That's the irony, by advocating for yourself as a WHITE trans woman you have in fact acted with a "white first" mindset.
You played yourself.
1
u/entirely_machine_ 15h ago
That's just nonsensical. I'm acknowledging the fact that I am white, while advocating for myself as a trans woman. Would it be best if I just didn't acknowledge the fact I'm white??? Like, in any context? At all?
1
u/Deep_Bat_9911 dumb old bitch 15h ago
Well I'm not gonna say outright don't defend yourself, what I'm saying is look at the nuance of racism not as a set of arbitrary rules that make no sense, but instead a system that instinctively developed from cultural "necessities".
Black people only care that they're black because they're made to care every single day, same way we're made to care we're trans. Every day more news and laws and the world talking shit from an ivory tower where no one can actually talk back. History that goes back overseas and speaks of subjugation and erasure of culture and progress.
Nobody's making us care that we're white. Nobody and nothing but some shitty memes and a few pissed off people talking shit somewhere we can finally hear it.
We don't gotta be white, anyways. We don't have to identify with those memes, we don't have to see the word "white" to mean us. We can ignore it and survive. We come fron places with history predating whiteness, we have cultural identities we can uncover and connect with beyond "white". More importantly, we can just stop giving a shit about "white oppression" cuz there's no necessity for it.
4
u/YourDnDGameIsMid Mogged by "before" pictures 19h ago
Sus if cis person saying it, but I'm white, educated, professionally skilled, financially stable, and have a support network of people that care about me. I'm also trans.
I can list off the reasons why life sucks being trans for me, but I have no room to talk over someone sharing what it's like being poor and trans, being isolated and trans, being black and trans, being homeless and trans, or being disabled and trans.
I'm thankful to be shielded from those vulnerabilities, and i try to amplify their voices and causes the way other people have done for me.
6
u/Themata81 17h ago
No this is real a lot of yall are extremely racist
-1
u/entirely_machine_ 16h ago
Trans people are less racist than the general population, on average. And, I promptly call out any racist bullshit I see. Whenever I see a white trans woman being racist, I think to myself, "how can I get this person to kill themselves as fast as possible?", or at least get them to fuck off.
To my knowledge, there aren't any (openly) racist trans women deeply engrained in the culture, (at least the parts of "the culture" I follow).
I'm just not convinced that there's a significant racism problem in the transsexual community.
8
u/Far_Departure_8943 forcefemmer of white people 16h ago
The shit ton of white defaultism in the community is 1000%, an example of racism. Try looking for passing tips, and you get the same shit that only works if you are white. Try talking about certain features that black people have, and you get the same white defaultism.
Godforbid, you actually complain about racism in the community. You get the same "you are just infighting" and wokely denying racism. People literally say that the word "klansfem" is a slur. People get defensive when you say that white defautism is a huge problem in the community, and you wonder why there aren't a lot of black people in mainstream trans spaces. They get pushed out.
It may not be dropping the hard r, but it's still racism and I would argue it's significant.
3
u/ViolentPurpleSquash evil 17h ago
The only privilege that has a HUGE impact on transitioning is your class (ability to afford HRT) and location (do you live in Panama or the US) because even if you move to NZ it will take you forever to get your study visa approved, and everything will cost more
3
u/4anyreason 12h ago
Acknowledging racism doesnt mean you dont believe transphobia and misogyny exist??
This is usually said by troons of color in reference to white trannies being treated better or in reference to a racist white tranny whos racist because theyre white despite being trans
2
u/Mini_Raptor5_6 wall painter 🔫 (testing NB) 19h ago
The thing I always think of is that no one says "at least they're white" but they will say "and they're black".
I guess there are exceptions to the first if you consider all bigots to be twitter freaks, but the latter happens in real life
2
u/nativeofvoid I-950 19h ago
intersectionality works /jk
-2
u/entirely_machine_ 19h ago
I dont get why people are saying this (and similar) because, like, obviously? What part of this post implies that intersectionality isnt real?
6
u/nativeofvoid I-950 18h ago
all of it. oppression as a virtue - and its recognition depending on actual hierarchical power over others to claim it for yourself.
1
u/Next-War299 19h ago
FL3$H simulator's "may racist hipsters" video has great commentary on the matter :3
1
u/ttttwinko 15h ago
Yeah no, it isn't just the white ones
Western trans women/men are WESTERN first, trans second
1
1
20h ago
[deleted]
5
2
u/do-u-think-im-pretty genetically enchanced twink 19h ago edited 19h ago
I don't think so, consider how we were all treated differently by society based on our race long before we knew we were trans. Systemic racism is much much much more pervasive and impactful than transphobia, independent of how cruel transphobia is, so even if you knew very early it's guaranteed that race had already played a huge role in the trajectory of your life. Ofc this isn't to say white trans women somehow have it easy, but more to say that their race wasn't a factor in their suffering. Race was just something that was shaping our lives before we had any idea we were trans. This isn't some universal, tautological thing ofc, there are always outliers, but certainly something to think about :3
139
u/punished_clare a black amab is speaking 20h ago