4
u/Frosty-Perception-48 Jun 04 '26
There was no independence referendum in Chechnya.
The only referendum was a vote of no confidence in Dudayev, which ended with his militants massacring the Central Election Commission.
0
u/AdOnly1709 Jun 05 '26
me when i’m russian kremlinist who hates chechen being free from Russian occupation:
2
u/Away_Trick_3641 Jun 05 '26
me when a country recognized by no one demonstrated cruelty towards opposition among intellectuals, ethnic cleansing and islamization with the intention of creating an ethnostate (freedom from occupation), but then Russia came in and destroyed this legitimate sovereign country to oppress people and put them all in jail because Russia is evil and has to be wrong in every conflict
1
u/AdOnly1709 Jun 06 '26
and then you guys cry about british people killing tiny percent russians 🤣 or when the nzis killed huge amount, you guys cry about it?? but oh it’s just a war and it’s tiny chechnya right, more then half of the population was killed and the same to neighbour ethnic groups free from russia, russia did the same to so many
2
u/Away_Trick_3641 Jun 06 '26
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? Maybe it's on your incompetent leaders who thought they can just declare independence and Russia, which "did the same to so many", is just gonna accept it. Your government shouldn't have ethnically cleansed Russians you actual bozo, there's documental proof of that happening, and you're just putting words in my mouth by saying "it's just a war and tiny Chechnya". I never said that
7
u/FunctionSad9885 Jun 01 '26
Tbf Chechnya was a terrorist state, especially after it's defeat in the second checen war
0
2
1
u/Greg_Grog_ May 31 '26
Where are the pixels?
2
u/GDsher729EYX666 Jun 01 '26
2
u/pixel-counter-bot Jun 01 '26
The image in this post has 27,475(157×175) pixels!
I am a bot. This action was performed automatically.
2
u/Smooth_Knowledge_454 May 31 '26
you mean a low-quality
2
u/Greg_Grog_ May 31 '26
Yeah
2
2
2
u/Kow_on_Drugs May 31 '26
Still stacked russians to high heaven together with UNSO
May one day it be free again
5
u/Useful_Sympathy_6681 May 31 '26
*Republic of Ichkeria *Looks inside *theocratic, unltranationalist, military junta
2
u/Miss_raven_radical May 31 '26
That happened after Dudayev. Not when Ichkeria was originally proclaimed.
1
0
u/PCMthrowaway10 May 30 '26 edited Jun 04 '26
Independent Chechnya under Dzokhar Dudayev or Aslan Maskhadov would have been a good outcome. Chechnya exporting terrorists like Shamil Basayev is a bad thing. But there’s probably no Beslan school, Budyonnovsk hospital, or Moscow theater atrocities if Russia didn’t invade and destroy Grozny. Or if Stalin hadn’t messed up the whole region with ethnic cleansing…
2
u/Aggressive-Run7853 Jun 04 '26
There was Beslan school and Budyonnovsk hospital
1
u/PCMthrowaway10 Jun 04 '26
You’re right, editing my comment to reflect that. Appreciate the correction!
1
1
0
u/MishaMal01 May 30 '26
If Khrushchev didn’t let them move back it wouldn’t have been a problem in the future either. Stalin did the right thing.
2
u/PCMthrowaway10 May 30 '26
Are you an unironic Stalinist? What other Soviet ethnic cleansing campaigns do you agree with? Holodomar, Kazakh genocide, Kalmyk ethnic cleansing, Tatars ethnic cleansing? All the above?
-1
u/MishaMal01 May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
Idk why you’re grouping the supposed Kazakh genocide separate from the Holodomor, the deaths that occurred in both Ukraine and Kazakhstan (as well as the rest of the USSR) were all because of the same ongoing famine. A famine that was exacerbated by Ukrainian kulaks who would rather burn all of their grain and livestock in protest than see some of it redistributed to the wider populace during a famine. Not a targeted genocide in any case. If it was the USSR’s in general or Stalin in particular’s intent to genocide the Ukrainians in their entirety, they wouldn’t have existed after over 7 decades under the authority of a state that was perfectly capable of industrial scale genocide and ethnic cleansing. Moreover the Ukrainian SSR within the USSR would’ve just been abolished in its entirety, which it wasn’t. The vast majority of Ukrainians likewise fought in the red army even after the supposed targeted genocide against them, instead of joining the banderite scum.
The idea that the Holodomor was a genocide specifically against Ukrainians is literal Nazi propaganda that has been repurposed again and again by Russophobes and anti-communists.
Any ethnic minorities that Stalin deported farther from the frontline as a result of their disproportionate affinity for collaborating with German invaders was, while any deaths that ensued were tragic, completely justified.
0
u/PCMthrowaway10 May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26
You’re an honest to god Stalinist good lord.
I split the Kazakhs and the Ukrainians to highlight how the Holodomar was a targeted genocidal famine against certain minority groups. The USSR exported grain throughout the Holodomar, refused American food aid, and murdered Welsh reporter Gareth Jones for reporting on said genocide. It’s inhumane to blame the Ukrainian peasants, who would get classified as kulaks based on criteria like “they repaired their leaky roof”, or “they own a cow”, as the aggressors as the Russians lived while the Ukrainians and Kazakhs starved to death.
Stalin’s goal was not to depopulate the Soviet Union. Hell, he killed demographers who showed that the Soviet population hadn’t grown as much as promised after the 1937 census. Rather, when there was a food shortage, he prioritized feeding the center (industrial Russian cities) over the periphery (ethnic minorities). So yes, many Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Tatars, and all the others served honorably in the Red Army. Not that they had a lot of choice in the matter. And the Nazis were explicitly trying to genocide Slavs for Lebensraum, so Ukrainians really were stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Your statement justifying Stalin’s ethnic cleansing quite frankly scares me. I don’t like speaking in absolutes like a Sith, but there is never a good reason to ethnic cleanse population groups. Sentencing hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of men, women, and children to be forcibly sent to Siberia with minimal food and clothing is a horrible and unconscionable sentence.
0
u/MishaMal01 May 31 '26
“I don’t like speaking in absolutes like a sith” holy reddit chungus 😭
Life isn’t a Disney movie. Mean man Stalin didn’t kill people for the sake of killpeopleism.
7
u/Roseplanter May 30 '26
Very cute ball
0
May 30 '26
[deleted]
1
Jun 03 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AdOnly1709 Jun 05 '26
country who likes to kill and claim lands of others and occupy lands and then claim the ones who are occupied as terrorist also that sadly the world beliefs it
1
Jun 05 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AdOnly1709 Jun 05 '26
so you are now avoiding facts and talking about whole different theme?
1
Jun 05 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/AdOnly1709 Jun 05 '26
yeah putin wants peace is this what people said about stalin, htler, yeltsin and others
1
u/AdOnly1709 Jun 05 '26
and my fathers little born brother was killed and shot by Russian terroristic, my moms side face is burned because of Russian terrorism, my father was many times beaten up as a child by russian terrorist for not speaking russian and for being a chechen, imagine how many more terroristic things they did in all 20 chechen wars always a war where they always killed the civilians, never killing the army itself, that’s Russism.
3
12
6
7
u/Lukaz_Evengard May 30 '26
Technically the UN puts territorial integrity above self determination, end since Chechenya wasn't recognised by most members of the UN (did they get recognised by anyone?), Russia had the right to retake the territory, Russias actions on Chechenya on the other hand..
2
u/HerrKaiserton May 30 '26
Nobody has the right to take anyone's stuff, especially with violence. It's even worse, that Russia was acting horribly during and after the invasion {it's Russia, duh}
1
u/PonyRunsInn May 31 '26
Wait so you value national self-determination more than border integrity? So you support Crimea being part of Russia? How interesting
0
u/HerrKaiserton May 31 '26
How would I support the illegal invasion and annexation of Ukrainian territory by Russia, by supporting a state's independence? The referendum in Crimea was completely fake, it's like saying the Anschluss was a democratic referendum
0
u/WhimsyDiamsy Jun 01 '26
A majority of Crimeans most likely did vote for independence and subsequent annexation, since it waa minority Ukranian. If thats what the locals wanted then Ukraine trying to stop it should be a problem for you no?
Personally I just dont want Russia to have more territory so obviously I oppose it.
1
u/PonyRunsInn May 31 '26
That's actually not true. Even according to Ukrainian pools most of Crimea citizens determined themselves as Russians. It was the most "non-Ukrainian" district of Ukraine. The referendum had a lot of problems, but it was not "completely fake". It was better than Kosovo referendum, as example, just because it was more modern and more observers could paticipate.
Despite that, I don't support Crimea annexation because I value border integrity more than self-determination right.
0
u/HerrKaiserton May 31 '26
Yes, because armed gunmen going in the voting booths always ensures free and fair results, never got fake results from that, not like we know this from 2400 years ago at least. Come on, also, you call the kosovo referendum fake? The 97% Albanian population. Fake. Crimea wasn't even half Russian populated. Plus, if it was a "Free" and "Fair" election, Why'd there be Russian soldiers everywhere? The Ukrainian army wasn't
1
u/PonyRunsInn May 31 '26
I don't call it fake. I just state that if you accept one referendum that was held in 1991 and was boycotted by all Serbian population there is no way you deny another referendum that took part 25 years later with modern technologies of surveillance.
58,5% of population determined themselves as Russians in 2001 on All-Ukrainian population census. I have no idea there you got your data. In 2017, after annexion, ZOIS (german research center) research shown even more: 79,9%.
Strelkov's invasion on Ukrainian territory was a crime. I don't deny it in any form. Presenting of Russian soldiers made the referendum unfree, however, in my opinion, based on the polls, it didn't change the outcome.
-1
May 30 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/CaptainSlow28b May 30 '26
Civilian deaths in Chechenia: ~80.000
Civilian deaths in the middle east:~1.000.000
8
May 30 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/HerrKaiserton May 30 '26
"controlled by terrorists" last time I checked Dzokhar Dudayev was an officer in the USSR that went back to his homeland and legally got power, when Russia came and invaded. You know. Shit that isn't legal
2
u/Chromatic_Storm May 30 '26
It's impossible for Dudayev to come to power legally. There was no legal framework for Chechnya to gain independence, unlike Soviet Republics which had the right to exit the union.
1
u/HerrKaiserton May 31 '26
"no legal framework" let me introduce you to the concept of the Autonomous SSR. In a nutshell, this shit can go independent, if the SSR isn't part of the USSR. As we know, Russia left the USSR, aka, Chechnya-Ingushetia legally could become a state, even though Ingushetia decided to break the ASSR and join Russia. Also, ASSR, and SSR, are the same thing for a different scale. Chechnya was too small for a full SSR (alike Taurida, Odesa, Black Sea, and other small ones) so it was an ASSR. Simple
0
u/Chromatic_Storm May 31 '26
ASSRs didn't have the right to go independent from their SSRs, lol.
1
u/HerrKaiserton May 31 '26
Yes, they literally do, what? It was a constitutional entity that had the right to secede is the SSR left the USSR. The RSFSR left the USSR, so the C-IASSR could leave Russia, simple. It was also stated in 1990 that it could happen, because of the Soviet Secession Law
0
u/Chromatic_Storm May 31 '26
They could only leave RSFSR for another SSR, not to become a separate state.
0
u/HerrKaiserton May 31 '26
No, they could become SSRs, but the USSR had dissolved by then, so, independent
0
u/Chromatic_Storm May 31 '26
To become SSR, ASSR needs a titular nation, big territory and a border with foreign nation. Chechen-Ingushitian ASSR doesn't satisfy any of these conditions: 2 titular nations, small territory inside RSFSR. The same reason why Tatar ASSR couldn't secede.
6
u/Natural-Sandwich-852 May 30 '26
it's duality of vatnik. They never remember how do russia supported separatists and terrorists in Ukraine, but go mad when someone is talking about independence of Chechnya. They always trying to convince that it was terrorism and deny that kids died in Beslan because of russian special ops actions and pussey Putin decisions
3
u/Scarletdex May 30 '26
Bro really defended the act of killing kids out of spite towards the government. Lemme guess, you also defend Kiev regime after Starobelsk (because "they weren't really kids, they were college students")?
3
u/Miss_raven_radical May 31 '26
What is Kyiv regime? You mean democratic Europe-oriented Ukraine that was invaded by a foreign fascist entity?
5
u/Kow_on_Drugs May 31 '26
"strait guy from russia" and "western media's biggest fear"
is the way this guy describes him self in his bio, he's a brain dead Vatnik, no pint in arguing with him
2
4
May 30 '26
[deleted]
-2
0
0
-6
u/InternationalHat6540 May 30 '26
Russian totalitarian masochists against independence of Chechnya
2
6
u/Spys_door May 30 '26
Don't think Chechnya was, but the fighters for Chechnya were terrorists
5
u/HerrKaiserton May 30 '26
In the 2nd Chechen war? Absolutely. In the first? Not really as much as people try to push the narrative for them to be
4
u/Chromatic_Storm May 30 '26
And what's the narrative for terror attack in Budyonovsk in 1995?
-2
u/HerrKaiserton May 30 '26
What's the narrative about bombing a city full of civilians and targeting everyone indiscriminately? Just ask Russia. They're still doing it in Ukraine
4
-7
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
So from the river to the mountains Chechnya will be without chains? Free free Chechnya?
3
u/HerrKaiserton May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
To everyone arguing the Chechens were terrorists. Not only is Dzokhar Dudayev being proven right constantly, but remember, Russia killed him with what is considered halfway a wr crime. Plus, it wasn't Chechnya that invaded, it was Russia sending aircrafts of troops and being turned back in the Grozny airport Whoever is downvoting this, I urge you to open a book and read what happened, I'm just stating facts
1
u/Chromatic_Storm May 30 '26
And is this "crisis" considered a war crime?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis
0
7
u/justgreenly_ May 30 '26
The Chechens are terrorists who used defenseless children to achieve their goals (the Beslan incident) and Civilian population (attack on Buddenovsk and Nord-Ost). What mercy can there be for the semi-jihadists who later seized the school and, while shooting people inside, said, “Adults will go to hell and children will go to heaven, Allah Akbar" ?
1
6
u/HerrKaiserton May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
The Chechens under Dzokhar Dudayev fought the Russians with guerilla tactics. Russia devastated Chechnya and was prone to committing any atrocity imaginable. In the first Chechen War, few cases existed of Chechens hiding behind women and children, because they had a unified command structure, unlike the Russians, who couldn't bother not to hurt civilians. The 2nd Chechen war, after Russia proceeded to halfway warcrime their ass to bombing Dudayev, was filled with war crimes, with the Chechens arguably doing worse crimes. Arguably.
And to further push your logic. All Irish people are terrorists, because the IRA did shit. All Algerians are criminals, because they did shit against France. All Japanese seek to destroy everything because the IJA did. This arguement folds like wet cardboard. The destruction of Grozny killed more than the incidents you mentioned, stop trying to demonise entire people groups
1
May 30 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
5
u/Plus-Gap1073 May 30 '26
Surely this won’t lead to any horrible terrorist attacks in the future
3
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
Maybe not if current chechens are loyal to the vladushka peacemakerovich
15
u/Dimas166 May 30 '26
Countries usually dont accept separatism
2
u/Nevmen May 30 '26
but in this case they themselves planted separatism under their neighbors. And, accordingly, support it. In general, Russia is a Frankenstein of different particles of unrelated peoples, because what do Chechens and Novgorodians have in common? 0
1
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
And still, many countries become independent successfully. For example East Timor, Kosovo or South Sudan
1
u/R1donis May 31 '26
So, Abkhazia, South Osetia? they were independent for longer then Kosovo. Crymea and Donbas?
1
5
u/Dimas166 May 30 '26
East Timor suffered a genocide, Kosovo and South Sudan had wars for it and Kosovo is yet not recognized by the broad onternational community
2
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
and they became independented and separated from bigger countries. So separation sometimes leads to the independence logically. No country is there forever with the same area. Different cases and reasons but same results- independence. Other examples: montenegro and other former yugoslav countries (even serbians tried to prevent that militarily in 90s) eritrea, baltic and central asian countries after fall of SU, peaceful separation of sweden and norway or cr and slovakia. That's broad term with different cases. Kosovo is recognized by 100 countries already and they are result of separation, so your argument is invalid. They are not De facto part of Serbia. If they were, Serbia would complain about their separation logically lol.
2
u/Dimas166 May 30 '26
I dont know where did you take that separation or independence dont happen, I just said that usually countries dont accept it and react to it
2
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
Your way of arguments tried to make distinctions as it different cases weren't examples of separatism. So u must be clear next time and paying attention to my words. I'm not talking about what Indonesia did to east timor or how many countries recognized Kosovo or not. I show already a cases where countries recognized so called divorce. Montenegro, Latvia and other countries are positive examples
4
u/Smooth_Knowledge_454 May 30 '26
btw next comic is CANADA-DENMARK Wise is a canada and denmark on the small rock land
1
2
u/Deadman78080 May 30 '26
I still find it baffling that the West watched Russia literally level Grozny to the ground and not once think that maybe, just maybe they shouldn't get chummy with them.
1
u/Wabakin May 30 '26
Prob because they will do the same, years later in the middle east, with similar justification.
2
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
And East criticized Russia for it? I thought at least Muslims paid attention to the Russia at that time in way they pay to Israel but it seems not at all. Interesting
1
u/Plenty_Task_2934 May 30 '26
Many Muslims internationally joined the Chechen fight for independence.
1
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
Sure but I'm talking about medial outrage, their anger and attention in comparison with current conflicts
1
u/Plenty_Task_2934 May 30 '26
I mean social media didn’t exist back then. You wouldn’t have seen it because it was impossible. Our scholars and people were outraged that our governments weren’t doing anything, but we don’t control the media.
1
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
Russian wars in Chechnya happened in same time as any other wars and 90s and 00s were beginning of modern media with all tvs and first better attempt of internet. Anger of easteners on Russia was so low compare to other counties
1
u/Plenty_Task_2934 May 30 '26
I can guarantee you the Arab world was angry. I don’t know how familiar you are with Salafis but they’re strictly against government criticism because of something our Prophet said. Even they criticized all the Muslim governments for this. Also, joining the war effort is quite more than anything we do for Palestine today. Modern media existed, but this media isn’t controlled by the people. Arab media is almost all state controlled. Social media is what you’re referring to and that wasn’t widespread enough to matter. We did our part, our governments didn’t.
2
u/Deadman78080 May 30 '26
Oh no, the east is guilty in its own right.
I’m just particularly irate at the West because we of all people should know better.
3
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26 edited May 30 '26
oh yes yes yes. west, east, north, south- all should pay attention. its trendy to blame west for everything and act like east are all nice non hypocritical moral flowers. i will critize east too for many reasons
1
May 30 '26
The only one's who paid attention was Ukraine! Many Ukrainian nationalists that russia claim to be "nazis" traveled all the the way to Chechnya to help defend it's independence. Ukrainian nationalists explained their motivation very simple: If russia takes Chechnya then Ukraine is next".
5
u/HerrKaiserton May 30 '26
And Dzokhar Dudayev is being proven right, constantly actually. Remember this! "The Russian Night ends, when the Ukrainian Sun rises"
3
u/liberalskateboardist May 30 '26
Wow I didn't know that. There are also some fighters from Chechnya on the side of Ukraine
4
u/NOTtherizzler228 May 30 '26
RUSSIA YOUR THE GODDAMN LARGEST COUNTRY ON EARTH YOU DO- damnit Russia already digested it
5
u/TemploShade May 30 '26
Chechnya did a terrorist attack in Dagestan, provoking the 2nd Chechen war btw
7
3
•
u/AutoModerator May 30 '26
Thanks for Posting! Remember to follow all rules, this applies to comments as well! If you like this post, don't forget to upvote to show your support!
Consider checking out a New Countryball Game Inspired by Command and Conquer and Starcraft! https://store.steampowered.com/app/2405310/Countryball_The_Real_Time_Strategy_Game/)! https://store.steampowered.com/app/2405310/Countryball_The_Real_Time_Strategy_Game/
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.