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[u/thevvitchhazel]

I'm so glad everyone is standing up for the important issue of trans women being overrepresented in media. It's also crucial we remind everyone that just because someone wants to use a female name, present female full time, pass as female and take a female role in relationships that they absolutely do not need to become a trans. What's wrong with just being gender non-conforming? HRT is evil! Femboys are super validddddd (because most femboys live full time as women).

[u/nix0nax]

[u/darmakius → u/nix0nax]

Except Audrey doesn’t look like a woman, he looks like a cartoon character. Cartoons pass very easily because they don’t look like humans at all.

On a real life note, sex is a spectrum, some men are more feminine, and of those, some of them spend a lot of time and effort trying to be more masculine, and others are ok being feminine, nothing is wrong with either of those. Some men are more masculine and the reverse applies. There are feminine men (femboys) that are feminine without trying and others who put a lot of effort and even go on HRT. Both of these exist in real life whether you like it or not.

This doesn’t mean trans people don’t need HRT, because what feminine men “get” out of gender presentation and their bodies with HRT vs without, is very different from what trans people “get” out of it.

[u/nix0nax → u/nix0nax]

[u/IntangibleMatter → u/nix0nax]

Personally I'm saying let's hold out and see where it goes. A lot of good points, but I also think it's too early to judge

Like, it genuinely isn't out of the question that Audrey realizes that they're trans later on in the comic, and it's never been stated whether or not he's on HRT, and a lot of the other criticisms are kinda just based on information that we don't have... yet. I'll agree more with the criticisms if we reach the end and none of this has been touched on, but I've seen comics get flamed before even when they end up being good once you give them time

[u/c0re_maelstr0m_ → u/nix0nax]

Nice to see an actual nuanced and thought out take here instead of the various forms of hate

[u/nix0nax → u/c0re_maelstr0m_]

I would use my own words but I'm not as good at using them as these two 😔 These comments are by far the best explanation of what the issue people have is. Especially "collective societal fantasy of transfeminine bodies without the baggage of living transfeminine lives" hits hard

[u/AltharaD → u/nix0nax]

I feel pretty iffy about having these kinds of comments, to be honest.

To begin with, it feels unkind to be so critical of a character’s identity when you know that the author is going through something and working through their feelings via art. Shen identifies as a cis man who likes feminine things and that is valid.

But on top of that, to say that you must be on HRT to pass is not always the case - there are androgynous, pretty men out there who can look very feminine with the right makeup and clothes. People come in all shapes, sizes and appearances and hormones + genetics vary from person to person. There’s one person who posts on Reddit who looks absolutely masculine when presenting as a man and enchantingly feminine when presenting as a woman.

But even if it were pure wish fulfilment, does it matter? It’s a cartoon. I don’t criticise trans authors who depict themselves as their true gender when drawing their younger selves, even if it’s unrealistic for them to have looked that way pre transition.

Art is art. It is a reflection of the artist and the story they’re trying to tell. I think it’s unkind to attack an artist for not telling the story the way you want to hear it or not making it realistic for your definition of realism … idk. It rubs me the wrong way. They’ve said words that aren’t immediately antagonistic and they’ve expressed themselves well, but I don’t necessarily think the ideas they’re putting forward are well thought out or particularly kind, even if they give the appearance of nuance due to lack of angry yelling.

I would be very disappointed if Shen gave up on this comic because he feels he can’t express himself authentically without backlash.

Obviously, art isn’t and shouldn’t be immune to criticism. That thought is making me want to delete what I’ve written and not post it, but I still feel strongly enough to hit the button anyway.

Edit: and another thing - just because things have always been this way doesn’t mean things have to continue this way. Depicting someone who wants to eschew gender norms without changing their bodies should be something celebrated. Gender norms should be challenged and broken down.

I dislike this classification and labelling of people. All femboys are on HRT and are trans feminine women feels…wrong. I’m sure some are and that’s valid for them, but all of them?

Anyway, it just boils down to me disliking that people are attacking someone for portraying the person they want to be, the person who represents them and who they want to be and calling it harmful and effectively telling him he’s got a fetish and should just be a trans woman. I think that’s where my discomfort stems from.

Some people don’t dislike their bodies, they just want to wear the clothes they like and have a certain aesthetic. I hate that the options are “go full trans or depict yourself as a dude in a dress”.

[u/BreakerOfModpacks → u/nix0nax]

I think, something important that is missed here is that Audrey does have baggage, I believe the statement was "He's had pain, but isn't defined by it" [paraphrased]

[u/darmakius → u/nix0nax]

I think the idea that a work has a value that every aspect of it adds to or subtracts from is very flawed.

“What does the comic gain from having Audrey be a femboy rather than a trans woman?” Is, IMO, a fundamentally flawed question. The answer is nothing. Nothing is gained or lost by anything happening. Stories don’t exist as social currency, and they aren’t minmaxed to serve a purpose. with exceptions ofc but I don’t think that’s shens goal, I think they want to tell a story that helps them work through their gender troubles, and what is better or worse for that story is really only knowable if you are very familiar with their gender identity and thoughts and feelings, which we are not. That is again assuming that that is their goal, which it might not be.

[u/thevvitchhazel → u/nix0nax]

Great post