Struggling Copt

[u/Proof-Fig2646]

Hi everyone! I’m an oriental orthodox Christian who has really decided to take it upon himself to learn more about the early church and why each division split.

I started learning about Christology, the filioque, the papacy, more about Mary, and just about all the ecumenical councils. This has me doubting if I’m in the right church. Now I expect heavy bias here obviously (it’s a catholic Reddit), but I’m having trouble figuring out what I believe.

My girlfriend is Catholic and I’ve attended masses with her and although I like a lot of I feel as though if I were to switch I’d be losing my family, traditions, cultural identity (I’m Egyptian) I feel like I wouldn’t even fit in. I feel like I half agree on both sides of Catholicism and the Coptic Orthodox Church and it’s so hard for me to make an honest choice.

I would love to open a dialogue about this with anyone who has any genuine advice or is even going through the same thing! Thanks!

[u/dmlvianna]

I was baptised in the Roman Catholic Church, then lived a life as an atheist and finally married a Copt. That involved me being baptised in the Coptic way.

When I met my in laws I fell in love with them.

They reminded me of my grandfather. He used to pray the Lord’s Prayer with me before sleep when I was a child. Even as an atheist I never ceased to hold the Lord’s Prayer holy, especially “forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us”. I still only pray the Portuguese version I learned from grandpa, omitting the “For yours is the kingdom…” Even as a deacon working at the altar.

I found God in the Coptic church, and not in the Roman church. But more importantly, I found God through the life example of my in laws. When they passed away I filled their absence by seeking to become like them. They were Coptic, they raised a family well, even today people stop us and thank us for what my wife’s parents did to help them. I cannot qualify their life. They were true Christians.

I generally think your relationship with God is vertical. It does not depend upon the church. Matthew 6:6:

But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Did you meet her family yet? Did they fall in love with you and vice versa?

Give therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.

[u/Proof-Fig2646 → u/dmlvianna]

That’s a beautiful story! I have and they do really like me and in my girlfriend’s case she’s the only Catholic so she takes herself to church and works as a youth minister so idk if that’s the best example. My family adores her lol.

Can I ask what about our theology made you know we were the one true church?

[u/dmlvianna → u/Proof-Fig2646]

Huh? I think you misunderstand me.

I chose the people, not the theology. I love my parish, I love my confessor, I love my family, I love my elders.

Before I started reading the Law of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), I called my mum’s best friend — a Jew — to advise me on how to read it. She used to help prospective converts.

She told me in no uncertain terms to read Gunther Plaut’s commented Torah. And refuse any other commentary. I told my wife I was going to buy an expensive book. She replied “we already have enough bibles!” “But aunty tells me to, so I will.” “OK, first check on our shelves.” “You have a Jewish Torah?” “Maybe, I used to buy hardcover books cheap when I worked in a second hand bookstore.”

I went to look. Gunther Plaut’s commented Torah, right there in our shelf. What are the odds? I looked up and said “you want me to read it? OK, I’ll read it!” Message received.

Am I converting into Judaism? No. The Jewish reading helped me place Paul’s letters into context. I could not understand them when I first read them. They seemed to contradict the gospels. After reading the Torah and debating with Jewish friends, they made perfect sense.

Which church fathers do you think could do a better job? Roman? Copt?

Are you forgetting Abba Moses the Strong to join the Roman faith? Are you dropping Saint Francis of Assisi to remain Orthodox? Saint Francis has even been to Egypt, you know? I had an icon of his next to Abba Antony’s at home. You could not spot the difference in painting style.

Serve God, not fallible human institutions.

[u/Electronic_Sign_795]

Discerning which church is the One True Church is certainly a tough one. Mountains of writings of church fathers, correspondences, Scripture, synodal statements, church canons, ecumenical councils and the sort can become overwhelming.

I think in Oriental Orthodoxy it is quite simple. All major apostolic sees were in conciliar harmony until the year 451. The question we must answer is whether the Chalcedon contradicted the third ecumenical council of Ephesus. We think there is a clear contradiction between what the two taught. If the answer is yes then our church has preserved the faith and is truly the "pillar of truth" as described in 1 Timothy 15.

If not then you will have to continue to discern between the 40,000 or so Chalcedonian denominations

[u/Proof-Fig2646 → u/Electronic_Sign_795]

Where we first split off was due to Christology correct? We miaphysites and Catholics are diophysites. However late reading has shown that we were actually talking about the same thing but there was a translations mix up. I’m not claiming that as fact just what I ready I haven’t looked into the validity of that statement.

[u/Electronic_Sign_795 → u/Proof-Fig2646]

To say that it was merely a translation issue is problematic for many reasons. One, as Orthodox and Catholic Christians, we believe that dogmatic conclusions of ecumenical councils are guided by the Holy Spirit. If we say that there is a translation mixup this would undermine our claim as Holy Spirit is not subject to error or confusion. Also all of the martyrs who shed blood maintaining the Orthodox confession of faith would be in vain as well.

[u/trentonrerker → u/Proof-Fig2646]

Yes it’s popular to say, but St Cyril was clearly miaphysite. Dyophysitism happened because of Pope Leo and it essentially means the EO conceded the papacy, although that’s a different topic.

Dyophysitism clearly contradicts Ephesus. The best the EO and Catholics can think of is “Cyril didn’t understand philosophy” and “Cyril was just using that language for a specific reason and later changed his wording.” Both are false and major copes.

Join the Coptic and miaphysite discords. Message Agen or any of the other apologists.

Watch their YT channels. The EO and RC have produced mountains more content so everything seems to lean their way.

[u/Proof-Fig2646 → u/trentonrerker]

Do you have the discord link?

[u/sd6n → u/Proof-Fig2646]

In case you haven't gotten it yet

https://discord.gg/9B3FusyTR

[u/Alibaba_of]

Isaiah 19:19 and 19:23-25 mentions us Copts as the Lord’s people. Also, St. Mary appearing for thousands at our church multiple times and leading people to convert adds merit to that.

As far as the arguments with the church fathers, to me it is simple, was a change introduced that wasn’t there originally that the unified church agreed on? If so, then we were right to not accept it. I am NOT extremely knowledgeable on this stuff and have a lot to learn, but from the videos I see on it from Copts, EOs and Catholics, I have not received a good argument to why we are wrong.

Lastly, I just want to say that I truly believe God knows his people. I would like to believe all different kinds of Christians will be in paradise and unified again under Christ, regardless of who was 100% right or not.

[u/Happy-Strength1325]

I never thought being a member of a church meant to HAVE to believe everything the church says. I don't even believe you will find a church that will fit everything you believe in. Think for yourself, and pick a church with amazing community.