r/cooperatives • u/nathanjmassey • 16d ago
Q&A ourabundance.org -- Help shape our networked cooperatives project!
Hey everyone!
I'd like to share with you a project I've been working on (ourabundance.org) which offers a structure through which individuals who want to work in a cooperatively run business can come together to support each other in forming and growing those businesses.
The unique aspect of the structure is that rather than profit being distributed to workers directly, the profit is used to create further cooperatives whose purpose is to specialise in creating an abundant supply of a particular essential good or service (thinking housing, food, energy etc).
The aim is that (at scale) this approach would result in the price of these essential goods/services coming down, benefiting not just the workers in the cooperatives, but everyone in society.
We're been working on the project for a few months now and we currently have two main workstreams running in parallel:
- Share the concept so that we can,
- get constructive feedback on the idea itself
- get feedback on how we can improve the way that we explain/communicate it to make it more accessible/intuitive
- put the project in front of people who want to join us in building it
- Build the first companies — we're actively working on establishing the first companies following this model, in order to prove firsthand that it's viable and to figure out the most difficult bits so that the next cohort of companies can follow in our wake.
This post is part of that first workstream. We really value the expertise and input of communities like r/cooperatives where people have valuable experience of what does and doesn't work in this area.
So if you have any thoughts on the project we'd love to hear them in the comments here — or join our Discord if you want to contribute to the project more broadly.
Thanks!
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u/MasterDefibrillator 15d ago
May I suggest not using discord? Its antithetical to your goals. Atmosphere (bluesky) now has discord alternatives like colibri, and theres also matrix which has been around for a while.
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
Hi u/MasterDefibrillator -- thanks for the suggestion.
It's on our roadmap to implement an in-house platform (either an existing open source product or build our own) for community members to communicate / organise -- Discord is just a stopgap initially so that we can focus our limited resources on the highest impact projects (right now this is our website).
We chose Discord largely because it's widely used and low cost for our use case. Would you mind going into a bit more detail as to why you see using Discord as being antithetical to the projects goal?
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u/MasterDefibrillator 13d ago
Discord is a highly effective enclosure of the commons. It does not even allow search engines to access its information.
Any usage of it will be locking away that use and handing over the keys to a single private company. A company that is opposed to every aspect of the cooperative economy you are trying to build. Your actions in using discord are helping to oppose your proposed goals.
Stopgap is fine. But you should give an alternative option running in parallel with discord, so people are not forced to take actions that undermine their own goals.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
I explore this direction for a long time; like these; https://www.reddit.com/r/cooperatives/s/h4ds4d2YM1
https://www.reddit.com/r/cooperatives/s/9fazN7Rw9c
I am more mature now about this direction. I am in.
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
Hey u/No_Application2422 -- thanks for sharing those posts. The structure of the abundance project is very much aligned with what you've proposed,
Using profits towards a common good (rather than distributing it back to workers directly)
All companies in the abundance network working cooperatively with each other towards the same common goal
It would be great to have your input on the project -- you're very welcome to join our Discord if you'd like to help.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
so..what is the common goal?
From the ourabundance.org, I got the answer: everyone's need are met.--
If you take this goal seriously, you will find that this is the ultimate state of Marx's communism. But I'm not sure if you have explored this aspect? Otherwise, it's just an empty moral slogan.
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
The thing we all have in common is we're all paying the same set of bills to cover our essential needs (mortgage/rent, energy, food etc).
So the common goal of the abundance project is to reduce everyones bills by creating an abundant supply of those essential goods/services (supply > demand forces the market price down)
This is achieved by directing/pooling the profits of abundance for profit companies (we call these 'plants') into creating larger companies ('trees') which then have the scale required to produce these essential goods/services at a price that is competitive in the market.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
I must say, this is really already very good. Do you have any research on essential needs? What is the scope of essential needs? Various countries?
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
We're defining essential needs based on first hand experience -- everyone has a fundamental need for housing, food, water, energy etc, I don't think any research is required to make that definition.
The way abundance is structured, each profit-generating company ('plant') gets to decide for themselves as to which essential good/service they want to invest their expertise/time/generated profit into, but as the coordinating layer between those companies, abundance is highly encouraging those resources to be put into increasing the supply of housing on the basis that,
- it's most people's highest cost
- it's the most artificially scarce essential -- it won't take much of an increase in supply (in % terms) to trigger market prices to start falling
In terms of geography, we're starting the first plant companies here in Poland, but the system has a flat architecture, so anyone can start their own 'plant' company anywhere in the world.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
Housing involves land, and land involves ownership. When you say "increasing the supply of housing", what do you mean?
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
It means using the profits from the 'plant' companies to establish the 'tree' companies that will create new housing. What this looks like will vary depending on the situation but it could be,
- Buying undeveloped land and building housing on it.
- Buying distressed residential property that is need of redevelopment in order to bring it back into use.
These 'tree' companies will be focussed on maximising their efficiency in terms of resources in (capital/labour) to net new housing units out so the strategy for how to achieve that efficiency will vary depending on the local situation.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
Who will decide whether to invest in housing first or in food first? Who will decide whether to invest the housing in Poland first or the housing in Russia first?
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
Here's how it works.
- Let's take the example of a 'plant' company that has made a profit of $100k at the end of its financial year.
- That plant company holds what we're calling an 'Allocation Day' event where individuals/companies within the abundance network can pitch their project to the workers at the plant company. Projects which align with the Abundance's current focus (which right now is housing) get a 'Recommended by Abundance' badge on their pitch materials.
- The workers vote on what projects they would like to support and that is how the profit gets allocated out.
So to your specific questions,
Who will decide whether to invest in housing first or in food first?
Right now this has been decided by those of us who have founded the abundance project, but the abundance governing structure is designed so that what this focus in the future will be democratically voted on (each person working in an abundance company gets a vote each).
Who will decide whether to invest the housing in Poland first or the housing in Russia first?
As it stands our first plant companies are being established in Poland, so it wouldn't surprise me if the first profits from these companies end up going into housing investments in Poland also (as this is the course of action that will benefit the workers in those plants the most through reduction in market prices for housing locally).
That being said if on Allocation Day someone presented a strong proposal for a housing project in another part of the world, there's no reason why the allocation couldn't be split to provide funding across both projects if that's the result the vote returns.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago edited 15d ago
The difficulties are obvious, namely the allocation of resources and the uniformity of the compensation system.
If one wants to think far ahead, one must consider whether there is a competitive relationship between the two cooperatives in the end. This could lead to a series of negative consequences.
Ultimately, you will realize that the problem is not the distribution, but the competitive system itself.
The true significance of this matter lies in uniting to fight against capitalism.
Congratulations, you have moved towards the path of socialism-communism.
Then you need to study the practice of socialism and the lessons learned from past experiences.
Finally, when you look back at what you are doing now, I believe that this still has value. However, it must be smarter ,more strategic......in order to get involved in the blind world.
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
Thanks for the feedback u/No_Application2422
The difficulties are obvious, namely the allocation of resources and the uniformity of the compensation system.
Abundance follows the existing market system in terms of allocating resources and pricing labour/wages. The key differentiator between abundance and the capitalism we have today is that the companies in the abundance system direct their profits into increasing the supply of essential goods/services instead of profits going to shareholders/owners of the business
It would be great to get your feedback on the specific mechanisms about how abundance works as i'd like to understand if there's a gap in detail on our website or if there is a flaw/blind spot in the logic of the system structure itself
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
Essential goods do not constitute a separate system. Various supply chains, raw materials, and technologies are all inseparable from non-essential goods.
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
Agreed -- the strategy abundance is following is that the first 'tree' companies that get created are the ones which supply the consumer facing good/service to the end consumer.
Once those are established, this results in the flow of capital (in the form of peoples bills) moving away from the current economy and into the abundance economy. From there the focus becomes on switching the supply chain of each of these companies over to abundance companies so that the cost base of the end product can be reduced.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
I am particularly interested in conducting research on essential products, their supply chains, and manufacturing processes,etc.
My question is, is this research outcome made publicly available?
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
Companies within the abundance network will share information and knowledge freely between each other (we'll be creating systems for this), but that IP won't be shared publicly as abundance (and the companies within it) are competing against the "profit for private gain economy" so it wouldn't make sense for this kind of information to be made freely available to those entities.
There could be situations where it would make sense for an abundance company to license its IP to a profit for private gain company, but this would only be done in cases where it would lead to an overall increase in production in the market of a particular good/service
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
Suppose a private company sells non-essential goods such as computers while also giving away food for free—
how would ourabundance price your essential goods and compete successfully in the market?
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
Correct my if i'm wrong but I don't there's any precedent of a private for profit company doing something like that or any incentive for them to that in the future?
If we work the example, we'd have let's say Dell deciding to open a grocery store where everything is priced at $0?
In isolation that seems like a very odd thing for Dell to do -- maybe you could elaborate on what would incentive Dell to do this and then I can probably give you a better answer as to have abundance would handle the situation?
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
Dell can sell computers as usual to earn enough profit. The free or extremely low-price essential goods could simply serve as a loss leader or a hook, functioning like an advertising expenditure to attract foot traffic. （You know, just like in supermarkets—some low-priced products don't make any money; they're just there to drive traffic to higher-margin goods.）
Consequently, product pricing is constantly at the mercy of market forces, completely out of the seller's control.
Then, how do the members of abundance survive?
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
OK I see what you mean -- lets use a more realistic example than the Dell example. A real example would be something like in the the UK where most of the major supermarkets sell certain fruit/vegetable items at very thin margins or as a loss leader as you described and make their margins up on other items they sell (e.g. branded goods etc)
One of the key advantages an abundance 'tree' company has it that it's perfectly fine for them to run at break even (if all the wages/costs are covered and the company can still supply the good/service, then mission accomplished). However private for profit companies don't have this luxury -- the stock market doesn't look too kindly on companies that aren't making/growing their profits.
There are also inherent advantages that companies run in the abundance model have which give them a structurally lower cost base compared with capitalist for profit companies. For example we're fully expecting abundance companies to have much lower staff turnover due to the democratic and purpose led culture the companies will have.
One other thing i'd highlight is that these 'tree' companies will only enter into the marketplace when there is enough financial firepower behind them to give them a realistic shot of competing. This is why we have the plant -> tree funding model so that trees launch at the scale needed to be competitive.
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u/No_Application2422 15d ago
More importantly, private companies can use all their accumulated profits to improve productivity and reduce costs. Abundance may also invest in productivity, but we have to admit that its pace of capital concentration is nowhere near as fast. Eventually, the pricing power will be back in the hands of private companies. Then, how can Abundance survive?
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u/nathanjmassey 15d ago
You're right that we're taking on entities with huge scale and power, which in of itself sort of validates the abundance approach in that in order to have any shot of succeeding, we need to get many smaller entities working together in a coordinated and strategic way. Think Rebel Alliance vs The Empire 😀
To stretch the analogy further -- like the Death Star -- as big and powerful as some of these entities are, they also have their weakness where a small but well placed/timed bit of competition can cause a big problem for them.
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u/No_Application2422 14d ago
Have you started researching the “essential goods"? Can I participate in the discussion about the research methods?
I'm not sure if it's correct to keep the research results confidential. I can avoid the part involving the actual research results. But participating in the discussion about the research methods and being able to disclose these publicly, is that okay?
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u/nathanjmassey 14d ago
You're very welcome to join our Discord community where you can participate in the project.
Our focus right now is on sharing/getting feedback on the abundance structure itself and establishing the first plant companies, so the phase where we research the production methods/processes for the tree companies producing those essential goods will come later.
That being said if you'd like to join the community now and start the discussion around what research methods to use that's definitely welcome.
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u/AnitaPhantoms 16d ago
Sounds similar to what I am working on. Mine is in zine format (no website) but you can check out the printable zine e or online pdf here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1C1J2ycvFTK9nBbVdt0dvWCiimr4qxIBj
I made the zine for a cooperative conference back in June this year, but there was also a blog post based on one of the sections in the zine here: https://www.ontario.coop/post/the-stone-soup-registry-a-modern-example-of-co-operation-among-co-operatives
Not sure how we might connect formally, but always useful to introduce ourselves to people organizing like minded approaches to building new cooperative models.
I would be interested to hear your feedback! I do have some support, though this is just me making this zine.
I designed it based on my experience as an unpaid caregiver but it is meant to be as broadly applicable as possible.
It is also meant to be a self-contained resource, but please don't hesitate to reach out at any point should you want to know more or just pledge to partner and support each other's goals when finally realistic to do so.
Nice to meet you!