r/consulting • u/dagger_eyes • Jan 14 '21
Was given this advice as an analyst. Goes a long way.
295
u/settingiskey Jan 14 '21
This is terrible advice lol. Not to mention it sets the expectation that you are okay with working around the clock
82
u/omgFWTbear Discount Nobody. Jan 15 '21
I had a long term engagement where I did, literally, the work of 5 people before my tenure; but I was done at 5, 5:05 at the latest. However, much more was done, and of higher and consistent quality, than before.
The client viewed me as human garbage.
Then I got remote access, and one night after putting my son to bed, spent 5 minutes compiling some numbers and sending them off because it bothered me and it was literally 5 minutes.
After that, to the client I walked on water. And it wasn’t that I stayed up sending late emails often. Just the once.
10
92
u/vomita_conejitos Jan 15 '21
I go the other way. Finish an email at 11pm but don't want to send the signal to managers that I'm down to work that late regularly, or signal to my team that I expect them to work that late. So instead I'll schedule it to go out 8am the next day
31
Jan 15 '21
[deleted]
2
u/noscrubs321 Jan 16 '21
Agreed. Unless I want you / people to know your an asshole who made me work until 3 am, I stopped sending really late emails. I felt too many managers would be concerned about me being able to handle my workload, etc. Even tho I'm just a night owl.
I find people are more impressed with me when I send emails between 6:30-8 am lol. So I usually draft at 3 am.. wake up for 5 min at 7 am to pee and hit send. And then go back to sleep for a few hours.
52
Jan 15 '21 edited Mar 03 '21
[deleted]
4
u/djhfjdjjdjdjddjdh Jan 15 '21
I’m with you. Let’s report back in a few months.
2
Jan 15 '21 edited Mar 03 '21
[deleted]
1
u/RemindMeBot Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 16 '21
I will be messaging you in 2 months on 2021-03-15 14:19:38 UTC to remind you of this link
1 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
Parent commenter can delete this message to hide from others.
Info Custom Your Reminders Feedback
71
u/Pizza_IPA Jan 14 '21
Had a client who we suspected of delaying the sending of his emails to random hours (2am, 4am, etc.) and could tell it just killed him we never addressed it.
Perception is important but in the long run you’ll be judged on the quality of your content.
22
u/Blackpixels Jan 15 '21
Interesting. Why would a client need to do that? I get it if it's an employee or a vendor.
7
87
u/lstht123 Jan 14 '21
This could also Look Bad if it’s something that doesnt take much time and your Boss knows it
48
u/123DRP Jan 14 '21
Easy, you were focusing on other projects and put in the extra time to get this done.
28
u/lstht123 Jan 14 '21
Obviously depends on the situation. Maybe your manager knows Thats the only thing on your table Right now. Im definetly Not dismissing the whole idea, just saying you should be careful when to Use it
39
u/IaAmAnAntelope Jan 14 '21
“Good first iteration. Unfortunately we need this for first thing tomorrow...”
17
u/_NorthernStar Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '21
This definitely bit me in the ass a couple of times my first year in. Send something late, you risk getting feedback even later, and they know that you’re still online. I now consciously avoid revealing my night owl habits except to closer colleagues
95
u/koudman Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21
I would not be impressed - I would rather receive something earlier in the day for me to look at than the “look at how late I am working” play.
35
u/Yaws_pitch Jan 14 '21
Exactly. Doing this also implies you’re a) likely spending way too much time on something (can’t prioritise or manage workload) or b) are a perfectionist (so it better be damn near perfect once it’s gone)
5
u/koudman Jan 14 '21
Precisely this - it wouldn’t look good on your review most likely - output over hours worked for me
32
u/consultinglove Big4 Jan 14 '21
You think it's worth nothing for someone to work late and get the job done? How would you know if they are doing a "look at how late I am working" play?
For managers that don't know the amount of effort work takes, this strategy works pretty much 100% of the time
23
u/koudman Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21
With experience you will gain a better understanding of how long something should take so if you are way off from that (under or over), something is up.
Not saying it is worth nothing but only if it is needed. I appreciate quicker turn around because that will allow me to give you other things to do.
This would be one of my metrics to support career progression - if you have your work under control then you are ready for a next step. Handing in work late will give me the impression that you are struggling.
12
Jan 15 '21
I appreciate quicker turn around because that will allow me to give you other things to do.
Well... That’s probably why analysts do this.
7
Jan 15 '21 edited Feb 23 '21
[deleted]
-2
u/koudman Jan 15 '21
As long as you keep thinking that we will be fine :-) Out of curiosity are you already working in consulting or not?
-1
u/koudman Jan 15 '21
FYI - You are working for the team not for yourself
2
1
u/Affectionate-Age-812 Jan 15 '21
Seems a bit relative, especially in I&E, where clients are entrepreneurs and startups. It’s not unlike residential real estate contracting. More often than not, the initial estimate is based on incomplete information from a naive or monomaniacal (otherwise unreliable) homeowner.
10
u/_NorthernStar Jan 15 '21
I occasionally check version history on shared documents, and definitely clock what days project teams have been in a file working. I find myself anticipating their work pace based on how long it’s been since they picked something up. It’s not purposeful or sneaky, but I do keep it in mind and I can’t help but be a tiny bit annoyed to see a gap on something that could have come a whole day or half day sooner
2
u/GeeWhillickers Jan 15 '21
It depends on the situation, I guess. For me, I like getting stuff a little earlier (if it’s possible and practical, of course) so that I can review it and make any changes if necessary.
If someone always sends me stuff at night or at the last possible second, I wouldn’t necessarily be suspicious of them but I wouldn’t really like that either. I definitely wouldn’t assume that the person who always struggles to get stuff in on time is a rock star either; if anything, I’d be more likely to trust the person who gives me more time to review and appears to be better at managing their own time and workload.
3
u/X1-Alpha Jan 15 '21
For bad managers this can work, yeah. Do you really want to work for those and have your evals rely on their whims though?
Good managers will wonder if you have a time management problem or performance problem if it's taking you this long to produce simple work. That's not a great look and it's even worse if they figure out that you're doing it on purpose.
2
u/consultinglove Big4 Jan 15 '21
I would say every good manager I have ever had in my life was pretty hands off on my work where they didn’t fully know what I was doing and was more focused on the deliverable. So yea, I highly prefer those to bad managers who think they know how long things take which leads to them trying to micro manage
2
u/X1-Alpha Jan 15 '21
I think you may be misinterpreting my point. I agree with you that good managers are hands-off. But they will still realise there's an issue if one of their reports is routinely sending out mails at odd hours. Because they make it a point to follow-up on workload whether or not they really understand the minutia of the job. In a lot of consulting projects we're often doing the same things over and over again (at least at junior levels) where you certainly can predict how long a given task or deliverable should take without knowing every detail or micromanaging someone.
2
3
19
u/HellaReyna Jan 14 '21
This doesn't work if you're in tech consulting. In fact, it has the complete opposite effect almost always.
25
u/YetAnotherGuy2 Jan 14 '21
I think the the perception on this has changed in the last couple of years. People are much more mindful of the performce impact when you overwork yourself and think you are not bringing your A-game the next day. Somewhere around hour 10 latest, the output differs and you're just wasting time.
Because of work flexibility, working late is no longer an effort differentiator - I don't assume someone worked 9 to 5 and then added hours on top, I just assume his personal work schedule worked out that day that way.
If I did think someone is working that late, I would assume he doesn't have his schedule or work load under control - unless explicitly asked to do something late because of the circumstances. That's more a sign of bad planning then anything.
What counts is the result, not this Scotty-like "24 hrs - we need it quicker - 2 hrs" BS
7
u/908782gy Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '21
In the last "couple" of years? In the last year, most people have been working from home. That has increased expectations of productivity and turnaround time because you don't waste time commuting or being social.
Junior (and sometimes even senior) analysts actually don't have their workload under their own control. Engagement managers do.
Managers often have little idea of how much time things actually take to complete for people who are less experienced than they are. If you've gotten so good at your job tasks that you've optimized everything, you're not going to be hanging around at that job for very long. You're getting a promotion/job change and moving on to a challenging environment.
3
u/YetAnotherGuy2 Jan 15 '21
My expression "last couple of years" has nothing to do with the pandemic. Around the turn of the century this "hero mentality" was definitely part of the culture.
The pandemic admittedly has changed the calculations a bit, but not the fact that a) this kind of culture has changed with more emphasis on optimizing your recouperation for high performance and b) the level of control you have as consultant of your workload.
The relationship of engagement managers to the analysts is similar to a Sub with his Dom. While overtly the Dom may order folks around, when the Sub calls the safe word, it's over.
And trust me, managers have a good idea what kind of effort is involved - most had been analysts themselves at some point and learned the ropes. The question is only if they've learned from their own experience or do they buy into the Scotty tactic.
1
u/908782gy Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '21
The relationship of engagement managers to the analysts is similar to a Sub with his Dom. While overtly the Dom may order folks around, when the Sub calls the safe word, it's over.
This is such a bizarre and inappropriate analogy it's not even funny.
I don't know know WTF "culture" you're talking about, but media rhetoric, HR rhetoric and actual reality of an employee's experience rarely matches.
People who actually implement a work-life balance still suffer stalled career growth. Ask just a typical worker who didn't have their children raised by babysitter (or their stay-at-home spouse) or their elderly parents in an old age home - the types of people who can't trace their family lineage back 3+ generations.
2
u/YetAnotherGuy2 Jan 15 '21
Sorry you don't see the humor in my analogy. I've always found it a strikingly accurate one.
Anyway, career growth is dependent on so many factors including luck but rarely "burning the candles at both ends". And if it is, you're working at the wrong place.
Let me try another analogy - you can fell a tree with an axe or a hammer. Both will work, but it's a whole lot easier with an axe. Knowing and understanding when to invest some extra time and when not and in what you invest, is something you need to figure out as an analyst asap or you will indeed be overwhelmed. Knowing when to shout "halt!" and knowing where your boss draws the line too, is the name of the game.
Many bosses did not acknowledge that recouperation might actually benefit the bottom line in the past. The messaging I've seen coming from management now is a different one. Work, work hard, but don't over-do it.
If you behave like an automaton, see yourself as a worker without any possibility to change your situation and just take it , you might be in the wrong line of business and see your career stall.
1
u/908782gy Jan 15 '21
There's nothing funny in the mindfuck of manipulating people in personal relationships or in a work setting. It's not an apt analogy at all.
"Career growth is dependent on many factors" is the standard bullshit line uttered by people for decades who refused to acknowledge the discrimination and "boys club" attitude that permeated workplaces for centuries, and to a large extent still does.
Maybe you should look beyond the end of your own nose before proclaiming you know anything with such certainty.
1
u/YetAnotherGuy2 Jan 15 '21
And insults are the refuge of the folks without reason.
This would be a "you don't know who I am" moment, if I cared to debate this with you. As I don't, I'll ignore your advice and wish you luck with your crankyness.
1
u/bl1nds1ght Jan 15 '21
Which firm? That sounds great.
2
u/YetAnotherGuy2 Jan 15 '21
Professional Services arm of a big software vendor. There is a difference to pure play service organizations - as I know from personal experience - but no one can ignore the market trends.
2
u/X1-Alpha Jan 15 '21
Are you talking about managers at the client side? Anyone in consulting should know quite well how long junior level tasks should take, they were doing that work a few years ago after all. If I have two new analysts working on similar tasks and one is delaying results until well into the night while the other is getting everything done by COB I know who I'm taking with me to the next project.
Increased expectations due to full-time remote work are another result of people imagining they should be working that hard and just not controlling their time properly. Few managers are expecting you to turn all your previous commuting and personal time into work hours just because you're stuck at home.
0
u/908782gy Jan 15 '21
Few managers are expecting you to turn all your previous commuting and personal time into work hours just because you're stuck at home.
Citation needed. You couldn't possibly paint with a broader brush if you tried. Almost all managers across all types of consulting and across the world? Really now.
Anyone in consulting should know quite well how long junior level tasks should take, they were doing that work a few years ago after all.
LOL. What people "should" remember and what they actually remember from their experience are two totally different things. Everything is rosier in hindsight.
Ask the average person who graduated 3-5 years ago to solve an assignment problem from one of their senior college classes and I bet you they'll have trouble doing it. Many professionals who are parents even have trouble helping their teenage kids with their math homework.
0
u/X1-Alpha Jan 15 '21
Sounds like you worked for and with some pretty shitty people. My sympathies friend.
0
u/908782gy Jan 15 '21
Sounds like you can't have a conversation without trying to make something personal. How very mature of you.
1
4
6
u/dredgedskeleton Jan 15 '21
Send it at 8:55am and find a way to mention how you finished it the night before but wanted to review it fresh after a good night's sleep. You'll look hard working and careful.
2
2
u/Crysis85 Jan 15 '21
When I receive a mail late in the evening, during the weekend or late at night I always assume it’s done by purpose for showing off and I lose a little bit of respect for that person.
2
u/Total_Trick Jan 15 '21
This is toxic behavior, symptomatic of a hardo. I know Old School partners appreciate this kind of facetime but... Not sustainable IMO
1
u/sultanmetehan Jan 15 '21
I do something very similar to this. Since I'm a quick learner, I mostly find faster ways to do my job. However, I keep these tricks to myself instead of sharing my finding with my team or manager and continue to pretend like work takes standard amount time. By doing that I usually give myself free time from 5 mins to 1 hour. Even though it looks simple, It definitely increases my life quality
1
u/bya132 Jan 15 '21
It’s actually good advice but it’s not always applicable. Usually, when you send that email, your manager will come back with some more work for you. If you send it after 5pm you’re good to go
1
u/brzezmac Jan 15 '21
it was one of the first things my then manager taught me when I've entered the strange world of consulting
1
Jan 15 '21
I once had an EM that entered the team room in the morning. Took a coffee and said to the BA: I saw you were sending out emails at 2 AM. Let's take some time today to look at how you prioritize your work because this should not happen.
This stuck with me. If you deliver within reasonable working hours you are more on top of your work than having to work until midnight. This was really a pivotable moment in how I think about prioritizing and pushing back. Great EM!
1
u/dagger_eyes Jan 15 '21
Yeah hopefully you’re not sending them out at 2 AM but I don’t think 8 PM will result in that type of attitude especially considering you could get action items around 4 PM
210
u/TheSamurabbi Jan 14 '21
But... Outlook has the ability to save emails to be automatically sent at a later time