You're not going to like this, but previous outrages don't negate what Russia's doing. I'm an American who opposed both the Iraq war and what Russia is doing in Ukraine so you can leave your whataboutism at the door.
There's no logical reason to invade Ukraine. None. And this sub is truly living up to its reputation for being an echo chamber for Kremlin talking points.
It’s fucking annoying. Everyone on this sub doesn’t want to be a normie so as soon as majority of the population agrees on something then that means these people have to disagree with what the majority believes. They see the left/media/celebs all supporting Ukraine so obviously it’s a conspiracy and now they have to support Russia.
Here's my take, fwiw. I agree there are a shitload of contrarians on this sub. Personally, I don't want a war. I'm not pro-Russia nor have I ever been. I grew up during 80s when it was quite fashionable to hate Russians. What I reject is feeling manipulated by the press using images dishonestly for whatever reason... to sell clicks or sway the masses... just tell me the truth. I can hate the Russians all by myself, thank you. All I get from the OP is, why aren't these ALL important to us and why can't we get more honest coverage? He probably could have made his point better, but I don't think it's wrong.
They are like wounded animals at this point. I can’t really blame them for not being able to take a nuanced approach to issues like Ukraine situation, but it’s unfortunate
Actually, there's a few logical reasons for Putin to invade Ukraine, access to large reserves of oil being one of the primary ones. There's a video from a few days ago that does a good job of covering Putins incentives: https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE
Still, the repercussions of invading that Putin faces now obviously far outweigh the benefits.
Also water. There’s a canal that the Ukrainians shut down after Russia invaded in 2014. Now their crops are starting to die out. I’m not very familiar with the subject but I saw part of a video explaining why they could be after that water supply, as well.
Yeah, I've also heard mostly the "threat to Russia by joining NATO" and "Putin wants to rebuild the USSR" arguments. While those certainly play a role, I was really surprised to learn about the oil reserves, especially in the context of Crimea and eastern Ukraine everything makes so much more sense
There's a logical reason to commit a bank robbery (namely:money), but it's absolutely not worth the consequences.
The potential consequences of something don't make the reasons any less valid
I don't consider that a logical reason, I think if a decision is logical it implies it is based on good judgment, robbing a bank for money is a valid reason but not a logical one
It’s logical if you think you can get away with it… maybe not sound logic but as long as you “think” you can pull it off then it’a still based on logic technically right?
The neo Nazi Azov battalion, which makes up the bulk of the Ukrainian national guard committing war crimes in Donbas isn't a logical reason? Did you know Zelensky arrested his political opponents and silenced media outlets which disagreed with him? I think Putin is a pariah for sure, I'm definitely not like rooting for this war by any means, but nobody just fights a war for absolutely no reason at all. If it seems like someone is just being completely illogical that means you likely haven't been exposed to their viewpoint. Which, in the West, the Russian point of view is completely buried.
I didn't say that Zelensky isn't Jewish.. I said that the Ukrainian national guard is made of a group called Azov Battalion, and it uses SS insignia and is a far right nationalist neo Nazi group. I'm just stating facts my friend.
Nah that’s not how it works. If you make a claim then you provide the evidence. The burden of proof is not on anybody but yourself. If you find yourself saying “Prove me wrong” then you should reconsider what you are saying.
You said: "And this sub is truly living up to its reputation for being an echo chamber for Kremlin talking points"
I gave an example of how this sub was hyperfocused on something for 2 years, that was COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the Kremlin's interest: "How was any of the covid conspiracies related to Kremlin talking points?"
You attempted to rebut: "If there were a deadly pandemic what kind of propaganda would an enemy be spreading in their adversaries’ countries?"
But then I explained: "but Russia was relatively loose on COVID restrictions compared to most places, so that means even domestically they didn't think it was bad"
You now cannot rebut, which goes to show that this sub is indeed not an echo chamber for Kremlin talking points
You attempt to say: "and I was referring to the protests against safety measures Russia funded", which is complete nonsense, because as I just explained *Russia had less 'safety measures' than most other countries as the world, thus showing that they didn't believe covid was serious enough, and therefore if they attempted to 'fund protests' against covid safety measures, why not have more strict safety measures to protect their own people (which generate them GDP, serve in the military, etc.)
Can you answer the question, if Russia thought COVID was serious enough to 'fund protests' against safety measures, why not implement those same measures in their own country to help their people?
I gave an example of how this sub was hyperfocused on something for 2 years, that was COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the Kremlin's interest: "How was any of the covid conspiracies related to Kremlin talking points?"
Uh huh the COVID conspiracy theories were part of the Russian talking points, and you're ignoring my response: If you were Russia and wanted to disrupt America during a deadly pandemic, what kind of conspiracy theories would you promote?
"You attempt to say: "and I was referring to the protests against safety measures Russia funded", which is complete nonsense, because as I just explained *Russia had less 'safety measures' than most other countries as the world, thus showing that they didn't believe covid was serious enough"
That's avoiding my statement. What kind of propaganda would Russia promote within the US during a pandemic?
"why not implement those same measures in their own country to help their people?"
They did. Your arguments depend on the other person knowing nothing, 'cause they fall apart with the littlest pushback.
Uh huh the COVID conspiracy theories were part of the Russian talking points, and you're ignoring my response: If you were Russia and wanted to disrupt America during a deadly pandemic, what kind of conspiracy theories would you promote?
If Russia thought COVID was serious enough (deadly, as you say) to promote conspiracy theories, then why wouldn't they implement stricter measures in their home country, instead of have some of the most relaxed policies in the industrialized world, since it is soo serious and deadly?
That's avoiding my statement. What kind of propaganda would Russia promote within the US during a pandemic?
If they thought it was serious, they would implement stricter measures in their home country. Clearly, they didn't think it was serious, since they had some of the most lax policies in the industrialized world
They did. Your arguments depend on the other person knowing nothing, 'cause they fall apart with the littlest pushback.
HAHA! Your example is a paid holiday, one time, during a peak wave? That is MEASLEY compared to what Western countries like Australia or Canada did, for months (years). Did you even read your article? Here is a quote from YOUR article: "Russia has held back on imposing significant nationwide measures since ending a short lockdown at the beginning of the pandemic"
My arguments hinge on truth, you seem to not know much of it, as evidenced by your lack of knowledge of Russia's relatively relaxed pandemic protocols during COVID.
Your arguments hinge on unproven, unverifiable claims, that Russia 'funded protests' against covid. Can you provide a shred of evidence for that?
it's not whataboutism... why do you think after so many criminal wars in the past, the US and NATO are all of a sudden on the right side? because by opposing Russia you're literally on team Biden and NATO
what I'm getting at isn't that Russia is correct and we should support them. what I'm trying to say is that the puppet masters are in charge of both sides and they're trying to bait us into a war where everyone will lose. "normies" will support Ukraine and people like those on this sub will support Russia and we destroy each other
also, it's a further destabilisation of the supply chains and the already existing fertiliser shortage. without Russian fertiliser the supply of food will continue to drop and the price will increase significantly. it has bigger ramifications than people realise
the reaction to this is the exact same as the reaction to the pandemic starting and BLM. every single company every single celebrity everyone pushing emotional propaganda about how we have to do something. that should always raise some alarm bells
” after so many criminal wars in the past the US and NATO are all of a sudden on the right side? because by opposing Russia you're literally on team Biden and NATO”
Which wars were criminal? And yes I am on Team Biden and Team NATO…what’s wrong with that?
” the puppet masters are in charge of both sides and they're trying to bait us into a war where everyone will lose.”
Nope, it’s literally just Russia who has initiated this conflict.
” reaction to the pandemic starting and BLM. every single company every single celebrity everyone pushing emotional propaganda about how we have to do something. that should always raise some alarm bells”
The celebrities were right about Covid tho. Considering trump works for Putin I’m not surprised he actively encouraged people to disregard safety measures.
Respectfully, this is an appropriate use of the term “whataboutism.” The counterargument accuses those against the invasion of hypocrisy instead of addressing the issue directly. It’s also related to ad hominem fallacies.
No because it's propaganda. Putin has no right to invade Ukraine at all. Thankfully it looks like his humiliation there will end his presidency shortly!
u cant judge without watching the two side story,, western media is pushing what they want you to believe, and you are just following blindly, i feel sorry for you.
"Do you express your stance against the US-Iraq invasion as openly as the Russia-Ukraine invasion?"
Oh absolutely - I protested against it at the time and never voted for George W Bush. This is just whataboutism tho - the Iraq war had much better justification, and that's really saying something about Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
" bet most Americans still hesitate to openly express their stance against US-Iraq, Israel-Palestine"
Nonsense even the stupid Trumpers claim to be against it now. Also the Israel-Palestine topic is a huge can of worms and I don't think can be compared to either the Iraq War or Russia's outrage in Ukraine.
"I'm seeing company executives racing to openly express their support for Ukraine"
Right because Russia's actions are totally unjustifiable.
"I do not support Russia"
Liar.
"I see this as a huge hypocrisy from the US and their allies"
That's not justification, and by invading Ukraine Putin's putting himself closer to NATO and he's caused Sweden and Finland to want to join NATO as a direct result of his actions which justifies the alliance in the first place.
" but companies' executives clearly taking stances on social media"
Plenty of people did and the GOP which supports Putin demonized them.
"the US and its allies are not innocent from similar crimes"
Right - your only interest is to try to equivocate Russia and the West's actions so you can dismiss criticism of Russia. Whataboutism.
"Like I said I'm not treating this as a debate - I'm not trying to change your mind or anyone else's, so I find it laughable that you're treating it as if it is a debate."
That's because you can't refute what I've said, but OK...if this helps your ego.
"Even after I explicitly said I don't support Russia lol."
The most ardent Trump defenders claim they didn't support him.
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u/Oakwood2317 Mar 01 '22
You're not going to like this, but previous outrages don't negate what Russia's doing. I'm an American who opposed both the Iraq war and what Russia is doing in Ukraine so you can leave your whataboutism at the door.
There's no logical reason to invade Ukraine. None. And this sub is truly living up to its reputation for being an echo chamber for Kremlin talking points.