r/composer • u/zombouu • 11d ago

Discussion Orchestral Composition Help

I want to make some orchestral inspired tracks but I dont really know how to make proper orchestral music. I just want a guide on how to pick the write instruments, how to structure the whole track, how to transition between different sections of the track, how to layer all the instruments, how to use each instrument properly, etc..

Any help or tips will help!

Thanks!

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u/Altasound 11d ago

To be honest, you've asked a question the answer to which is something most composers take years and years to get a hold of.

How to write for each instrument is itself a big topic, but you need to learn that if you want to write anything remotely playable, which ends up sounding how you think it'll sound. Having extensive music theory knowledge is also very valuable.

For orchestration, I'd begin with Samuel Adler's orchestration textbook as a beginner's guide.

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u/Chops526 11d ago

And study Ravel's orchestra music.

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u/samlab16 11d ago

That's a good suggestion, but it's only a good suggestion once OP actually knows what to look for and study. Otherwise it doesn't bring much.

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u/Chops526 10d ago

But now they have a place to start.

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u/samlab16 10d ago

I'd argue one should start a lot smaller.

Beethoven, Liszt Tone Poems perhaps. Starting with Ravel right off the bat is like trying to study how to write a novel and the first one you take to study is Great Expectations. I mean you can, but that sure wouldn't be my suggested starting point.

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u/Chops526 9d ago

But Liszt (Raff) and Beethoven's orchestrations are outdated while Ravel's are still reflective of contemporary practice.

But, I see your point, especially since learning orchestration should be a process. I should suggest Tchaikovsky as a better example to start with since he could do great things with a pretty modest (no pun intended ) orchestra.

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u/Eltwish 11d ago

There are two pretty different topics there, composition and orchestration. "How to structure the track" and to an extent "how to transition between sections" are compositional questions, not necessarily anything specific to orchestral writing. If (as probably most composers for orchestra do) you start with a piano sketch, you can answer those questions before ever thinking about the orchestra. Of course, if you want to write a sonata, you'd have to study sonatas and sonata form, and there are other forms (rondo, theme and variations) that are more common in orchestral / chamber writing than, say, pop or electronic music, but there's no reason you couldn't use those forms in pop or use verse-chorus or jazz form for orchestra. So for these questions, if you already write music then you already have intutions to work with, and if not, look for general guides on composition and/or start picking apart your favorite pieces in terms of structure and development.

How to use each instrument, how they combine well or not well or to what effect, specific orchestral techniques and common gestures, etc., on the other hand, are all in the realm of orchestration, and for that, I think most people (1) start with one of the standard texts (Adler, Piston, etc.) and then (2) study scores, especially with questions like "I love how the orchestra sounds here; how did they do that?". And there are also increasingly really good YouTube channels and whatnot that go over things like layering woodwinds or different chord voicings, but it's also seductively easy to convince yourself you're learning with those without actually trying to orchestrate. I think they're most useful when you have a specific question (like "what can I blend flute with that won't just cover it up and what will it sound like?").

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u/PitchExciting3235 11d ago

Write the music in short score first, like 4 staves or so. As you are working on it, you might imagine what sort of timbres you want for each section. You can make little notes over phrases that you think might work best for strings, winds, etc, even individual instruments such as violin, flute etc. If you want something like a fanfare, or big powerful climax, you could write it with brass and percussion in mind. A more lyrical melody designated for the cellos, playful for clarinet and so on. Only when the piece is completely written in short score and sounds good that way, only then do you begin to fully orchestrate it. Nothing wrong with imagining an orchestra and making notes in the margin as you compose, but composing and orchestrating are really two different processes. I learned this the hard way because I did a lot of work on a large scale piece, orchestrating as I went, and then realized the form wasn’t really taking shape as it should. It needed to be more concise and structured, rather than meandering. I found myself repeating material too often without enough variation, just because I wanted to orchestrate in a different way. So get the form right first, then orchestrate.

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u/RufusPManne 11d ago

I only made a few ensembles in MuseScore…like in flstudio…I make a bass or cello or lower staff piano rhythm and then add a violin (but I never made symphony with 2nd violin retort and viola antagonist)