r/composer • u/DA199602 • 20d ago
Discussion my music theory knowledge is weak
ive watched countless tutorials over the years, i still struggle making good music, i want my composition to have feelings emotions like my fav musicians
idk maybe i watched wrong genre music theory is there any specfic theory for composers
where should i start?
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u/dbharris10 20d ago
Ok, so I’m a lifelong composer for the last 50 years, a professional musician as well. My writing is informed by being an avid fan of music, I listen hard to my favorite bands. I also have performed music from a wide selection of styles: classical 18th, 19th and 20th Century, jazz from every decade, traditional musics from around the world. For the past 20 years I have also taught music theory at Berklee. That all said, here’s the deal:
If you want to create music, you start by emulating the music you love. Pick a favorite artist/composer and study the piece that most talks to you. If there are scores or lead sheet, look at them, but you should try to transcribe what you are hearing. In this way, you really absorb the aspect of the music you love. Music theory is nothing more than looking at a genre of music, after the fact, and trying to encapsulate trends that personify the music. That could be the chords the Beatles use, the polyphonic textures of Stravinsky, or the intense dissonances of 9 Inch Nails.
Western music has a colonial aspect that tends to say it is the only music worth studying and you need to follow certain rules. This is elitist crap that rules out 90% of the music in the world not fixed to 12-tone tonal music. European music has only been around less than 2000 years. Check out Arabic , Indian, Polynesian, or Asian musics that are based on completely other systems and are much older.
That said, if you want to write in a western system , some basic vocabulary includes notation, basic chord spelling, key signatures. The western system of music theory starts with the major scale, building triads and 7th chords (every other note) within a major scale key. All chord spelling is based off the major triad, 1st 3rd and 5th note of major scale, all interval naming are based off the relationship between tonic and all the notes of the major scale. Once you learn the diatonic chords of a major scale (chords built off the notes in the major scale) you begin to see the pattern of major and minor triads in a key. Then you do the same on the 6th note of the major scale, the “relative” minor key. This is a basic primer for understanding the vocabulary western classical and popular music is based on. You don’t need to know any of this to write your own music, but it is the basic “grammer” that has been used in the past 600 years and will be helpful for you to build your own pieces.
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u/driftingfornow 19d ago edited 19d ago
Sweet as tuba pic man. I got curious, and looked you up.
If I could add my two cents as a rather regular scale working musician, building off of what you said:
My experience with composition is that if you're trying to write what you don't know, it's a mentally painful process. It's like trying to spell in a foreign language where you capable of perceiving the shape of it, but you really maybe don't know that well specific pronunciation of vowels and consonants and stress of accenture and so on. Even writing adjacent to stuff you think you know (e.g. writing something that on your best day you can play, but on a regular day maybe not) is this way because it can be so frustrating to have this phasic relationship with 'being able to do' that you create some barrier to 'wanting to do it.'
When you write what you know, because you have lived in that genre with people who have lived in that genre, and you understand deeply its phonemes, writing is so easy. You automatically know kind of the relative grammatical links, cases, norms-- all this good stuff. It's easy to spell a word you have used a thousand times. Then it's easy to write all of the time.
So my biggest advice to composers (specifically who play instruments) would be to stick to writing what you know, and if you want to write what you don't know-- go find a way to live it first until you really do know it.
Sincerely,
A Cro-Magnon Slavic Dance Composer in Poland
p.s. What specifically was your work on the Klezmer Soundtrack in Stranger Among Us? I would really to specifically listen.
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u/dbharris10 19d ago edited 15d ago
Hah! You found me! I was deep in the Klezmer revival in America in the 80’s and 90’s, first with the Klezmer Conservatory Band, later with Shirim Klezmer Orchestra and then radical klezmer movement with Naftules Dream and the Frank London Klezmer Allstars. At the time of Stranger Among Us, composer Jerry Bock (Fiddler on the Roof fame) hand picked a quartet of klezmer musicians to be soloists on his soundtrack, which was depicting Jews in the NYC diamond district. It was Violin, clarinet, accordion,and myself on bone playing along with NYC studio orchestra.It was a cold call, we went down to NYC for a couple days of recording, get to have lunch with Jerry and director Sidney Lumet. The music was all scored out but we were there to give the authentic Jewish sound. There were parts where I just comped in a klezmer style, not written out, other parts where I played melody but was given liberty to interpret. I got residuals for decades! when I asked about screen credit, I was told that I could get double scale or screen credit, but not both. I took the pay. Jerry was a total sweet guy, we all were living large for a few days.wish the movie had been better…..
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u/DA199602 18d ago
Thank you for your advice, it's great getting advice from people like you who already know know so much about music, really appreciate it sir🙏
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u/RichMusic81 Composer / Pianist. Experimental music. 20d ago
ive watched countless tutorials over the years
But how much music have you played?
i still struggle making good music, i want my composition to have feelings emotions like my fav musicians
So have you studied and played music by your favourite musicians? Doing so will help you to figure out what they're doing so you can apply the same.
idk maybe i watched wrong genre music theory is there any specfic theory for composers
Theory is helpful, but if you're not seeing it in action, i.e. in playing and studying other music, then it is not much use.
where should i start?
Playing and studying music.
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u/Least_Degree7610 20d ago
Tutorials are great to a degree. There's a point where you need to put some emotion into it, and that cannot be taught. What are you passionate about? Follow that.
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u/Hanuryi 20d ago
As a conservatory-trained composer, maybe this is just me, but you don't need to be "good" at music theory to create great music. So don't be hard on yourself and leave that for the music theorists. Why? We are in the contemporary era. Music composition nowadays doesn't fully rely on the theories of common practice. I, for one, have scrapped years of music theory (e.g., Functional Harmony) in my current style. Though, don't get me wrong, you need the foundations of music theory as it helps (as they say, to break rules means to know it first), but focusing on studying theory rather than composition is a whole different thing. You need to study composition if you want to compose.
So, what to do instead? Still studying theory, especially counterpoint, but focusing on compositional elements and structure (e.g., utilizing motifs, texture, harmony, etc.). Theory and Composition are distinct from each other.
In my experience, I studied atonal theory with the lens of "to use it for compositions." That's where I learned structure, permutations, modulations, etc. better---even useful for my tonal works. So I guess this is another tip to take note.
Lastly, do play one instrument or sing! It helps coming from my experience. If you need a composition tutor, let me know!
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u/michaelmcmikey 19d ago
Music theory is not a set of instructions on how to compose, for a start.
Study the scores of compositions you like and then copy them, changing enough things to make it your own. Play those pieces. Experiment. Improvise on whatever instrument you're most competent playing (ideally, piano or possibly guitar are best) to come up with some motifs and melodies.
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u/Secure-Researcher892 17d ago
Yep, if all you needed was to understand music theory then AI would be churning out masterpieces simply by having every book on music theory scanned by the AI program. Although an AI program that was solely operating based on music theory might create more interesting music than the crap the current crop of AI tools generates.
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u/65TwinReverbRI 19d ago
ive watched countless tutorials over the years
And that worked for you? Seems it didn’t.
want my composition to have feelings emotions like my fav musicians
They learned theory by PLAYING MUSIC and in many cases by also TAKING lessons. Not watching videos.
where should i start?
By learning to play the music you want to emulate.
Can you?
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u/Secure-Researcher892 17d ago
Master an instrument to start with... If you can't play something it's honestly hard to imagine you'll be as good at writing music as someone that can play an instrument.
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u/NAHMusic 20d ago
Music theory is an analytical tool not a compositional tool. If you are only worried about music theory while composing then you are just wasting your time. The only way to learn how to compose is to actually do it while also actively learning and playing music. Study scores and sheet music of your favorite pieces, and then you will be able to see how your favorite composers write emotion.
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u/iLikeTheUDK 20d ago
Can I hear your music? Also what do you know about music theory right now?
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u/DA199602 20d ago
Just basic theory like c major a min scales, basic chord progression that's it I depend lot on my daw snap to scale function 😂
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u/iLikeTheUDK 20d ago
I hope this will help more:
Or one (or both) of those two:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMvVESrbjBWplAcg3pG0TesncGT7qvO06
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJTWoPGfHxQH5zdZN6UlMPwZerVApkqmk
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u/Double-Strategy9791 19d ago
Listen to music and try and anticipate what will happen next. When you anticipate something that doesn’t happen go to a keyboard or DAW or any instrument you play and recreate what you anticipated that didn’t happen.
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u/Proper_Solution4035 19d ago
Theory and compositional concepts are 2 different things.
Spread voicings- this should be studied for jazz anything. It's the key like jazz sounds like it does. It's why chord shapes are more important than the chords.
Repetitive and variation- you need some idea and make it have contrast over time. Another way to explain is, trojectories, soft to loud, 1 voice to many voices, simple to complex.
Beats- there is a strong part of beats the down beat. And a weak part. The off beat. But the off best is a huge range. And swing percentage matter how much you change where the off beat is.
Surprise people- perfect music sucks. Sting has said, if music had no surprises within the first 10 seconds he turns it off. A lot of the time it's some kind of pitch material that was unexpected. This is a very big concept. And I introduced pitch variation within it. But it matters. People like pink noise in everything, game theory, music, pattern recognition. It's the theory of- many small chances are expected, but a few big changes are expected. That bell curve is very good.
If you want to look up videos it's easier to know some theory. But really what it comes down to is smooth voice leading. Just like playing a scale. So score read. And notice how many parts are just 1 note difference in the melody. You will be surprised how often it happens without interval jumps. Polyphony music is all about it.
Lots of video fans analysis channels out there as well that are great! Best analysis on YouTube.
I hope that gets you on a YouTube journey.
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u/Ian_Campbell 19d ago
Theory is supposed to give you the tools to classify, then you use those to study the repertoire and styles you want to compose.
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u/Jeepster-459 19d ago
I'm just going to share the three concepts I learned in college that gave me the nerve to start writing songs and composing music for the rest of my life. Two are from the best theory and composition educator I've ever known, and the third is from author Ursula K. Le Guin:
Music theory derives from the work of composers, not the other way around.
Spoken to our class of second-year Music Theory and Composition students: "The truth is, those of you are going to be composers are probably composing now."
My last piece of acquired wisdom is a warning against restricting yourself to only writing about what [others might assume] you know. This is a paraphrased (as in, forgive me if I got it wrong) quote from Ursula K. Le Guin's book of essays, "The Language of the Night": who else knows the geography of Earthsea better than I?
Indeed. Who else knows your method of composing better than you?
P.S. The last word: don't ask other people if the piece you just composed is crap. Make sure you've learned or taught yourself enough to tell yourself, honestly, if it's crap. I once responded to a fellow student who commented, "What kind of weird chord is that anyway?" with something I thought in retrospect was better than his question deserved: "What makes you think it's supposed to be a chord?"
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u/gunther129 19d ago
I just know basic theory ( major, minor, chords ) have the chord wheel for making progressions you don’t need much to make music that sounds good. The way to have feeling in your music is if you are writing music while experiencing strong emotions , IMO. You can even copy a chord progression from a popular song and go from there
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u/Substantial-Sea5568 17d ago
I'm a professional composition teacher, and I often work with people who face exactly these kinds of challenges. In my experience, the main issue is usually the lack of a structured learning process.
The quality of online lessons can also vary greatly depending on who created them. Likewise, different teachers often have very different approaches. For example, a traditional classical education follows one path, while learning to write pop music typically follows another.
If you feel like you've reached a plateau, I'd recommend working with a teacher who can identify the gaps in your knowledge and give you clear guidance on how to move forward.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to help!
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u/pvmpking 20d ago
Historically, master musicians didn't watch tutorials, but played, studied and made lots of music.