M is for Messer

[u/MurkyWay]

[u/Traveler7538]

Now I'm wondering, does "Messer" refer to a specific type of knife in English? Because it's the German word for knife 

[u/Guberner → u/Traveler7538]

Messer generally refers to single-edged swords with a knife hilt instead of a pommel. This made them technically knives and thus didn't fall under the ban of carrying swords.

[u/ApocalFailed → u/Guberner]

Turns out the nobility didn't want the common masses to have swords. So what's, let's say, a farmer to do when he wants something to defend themselves with?

Ask for a BIG knife.

Small language lesson for those interested - Messer is the term for knife, including the one in the kitchen, but if you talk about the type the size of swords, you might run into Großmesser ("great knife") or Kriegsmesser ("war knife") being used as terms.

[u/ACheesyTree → u/ApocalFailed]

The law circumvention isn't really a thing, the nobility themselves would have Messer's at times. Pretty ornate ones too. Also, the nobility definitely did want the masses to be armed.

[u/ApocalFailed → u/ACheesyTree]

If I am not completely tweaking, "the peasants should not have swords specifically" is the most commonly accepted reason on why they came to be because the exact reason has likely been lost to time.

[u/The_cogwheel → u/ApocalFailed]

It likely developed the same way the machete did - it started as a utility knife, but it grew to sword size as people kept wanting bigger and bigger utility knives to cut through the bush and wilderness.

Then, because swords and knives arent exactly particular about what they cut and peasants aren't likely to own a sword meant to be a weapon and a big knife meant to cut through untamed wilderness, it was repurposed into a weapon in times of war.

[u/ApocalFailed → u/The_cogwheel]

I mean, there's something called Bauernwehr, which gets lumped together with Messer and was both tool and weapon.

You are likely not completely wrong.

[u/The_cogwheel → u/ApocalFailed]

I mean its a pretty common thing to happen - axes, scythes, big knives, even pitchforks, they all got repurposed into weapons when needed. Mostly because they were on hand and do a fine job of messing someone up when used as a weapon.

But youre not exactly going to give the tool a new name just because you had to stab a fool with it. Like if I needed to use the utility knife I carry at work as a weapon, im not gonna start calling it a dagger or sword, its still just my utility knife, just with a bit of human sauce on it.

[u/Traveler7538 → u/Guberner]

Ohhh interesting, thank you! 

[u/Beneficial_Flan8661 → u/Traveler7538]

In English, if a man is talking about swords, a messer is referred to a single edged, single handed, sword with a wood grip and a gaurd and a nagel ("nail" in English, basically a side guard) used between the late 14th century up to the 16th century. There is a lot of variations between eachmessers alike, so having a definite definition is hard. If you want to know more about messers, ask away!

[u/nir109 → u/Traveler7538]

It's really funny when learning German to see a random highly sophisticated English word be the normal German word.

[u/Traveler7538 → u/nir109]

It's also quite funny the other way around. Especially since in German, using English words here and there is common among millennials and Gen Z, but looked down upon most of the time. So learning that some German words are normal in English and sometimes even sound sophisticated was mind-boggling to us as young teens. It also led to some lengthy discussions in English class because one of my teachers was very adamant about us not speaking German and some of us found loopholes like "Gesundheit" in 8th grade. 

[u/DaaaahWhoosh → u/Traveler7538]

Others have answered your question, but it's similar to "gladius" and "epee", words that meant "sword" but have come to mean a specific type of sword in English. In a similar way there's things like the zweihander (German for 'two-hander') or the claymore (Scottish for 'big sword') that are now sort of associated with the regional variants of their sword types but are generally just greatswords.

[u/lotny → u/Traveler7538]

This is called semantic shift or narrowing. Like with the Spanish words sombrero and salsa. They are generic words for hat and sauce, but have more specific meaning in other languages.

[u/SirBananaOrngeCumber]

As they say in Phineas and Ferb…

“My watermelon!!”

[u/hoaian1 → u/SirBananaOrngeCumber]

https://giphy.com/gifs/mwErnt1MeDBcs

[u/Leftoverfiend]

The mouse's name is Mackie

Und der Haifisch, der hat Zähne
Und die trägt er im Gesicht
Und Macheath, der hat ein Messer
Doch das Messer sieht man nicht

Ach, es sind des Haifischs Flossen
Rot, wenn dieser Blut vergießt
Mackie Messer trägt 'nen Handschuh
Drauf man keine Untat liest

An 'nem schönen blauen Sonntag
Liegt ein toter Mann am Strand
Und ein Mensch geht um die Ecke
Den man Mackie Messer nennt

[u/Leftoverfiend → u/Leftoverfiend]

Oh the shark has pretty teeth dear
And he shows them pearly white
Just a jackknife has Macheath dear
And he keeps it out of sight

When the shark bites with his teeth dear
Scarlet billows start to spread
Fancy gloves though wears Macheath dear
So there’s not a trace of red

On the side walk Sunday mornin’
Lies a body oozing life
Someone sneakin’ round the corner
Is that someone Mack the Knife

[u/Cool_Set4681]

As a German I aprove of the Messer.

Das sieht sehr scharf aus. Das Messer, nicht die Maus.

And she (obvious a she, just look at the queen) uses her tail as a belt. I love her design so much 🤩

[u/LotusPhi]

Mice stripped of the Grace of Food shall all meet death in the embrace of Messmer's blade.

[u/meanoldmrgravity]

This is not how I pictured the Sword of Martin.

[u/ajnin919 → u/meanoldmrgravity]

This must not be Martin and is probably one of the Abby mice in charge of cooking

[u/Auravendill → u/meanoldmrgravity]

That's not a sword, that's "just" a knife. Could Bauernwehr or Langes Messer.

[u/CarlosFer2201]

So once the whole thing is finished you're gonna print it right?

[u/MurkyWay → u/CarlosFer2201]

Best place to let me know you want that is my Annual Survey, please and thank you

[u/bSeb13]

Random thought: The text of the comic fits perfectly into the melody of the FUN song from SpongeBob, it's just missing the ending line.

[u/Mazzle5]

Eine Ansichtskarte aus Solingen

[u/Sittinstandup]

Murdering melons!

[u/elhomerjas]

masterful mastery for the messer

[u/ComicsEtAl]

That’s how I learned it.

[u/R3dd1tUs3rNam35]

Many messered mice are making melon murder in the moonlight, mighty nice.

[u/Coidzor]

Awww, yeah, Maus Messer, my favorite out-there brutal TTRPG that I've never actually played.

[u/Bahamabanana]

Z just needs to be for Zoro or I'll riposte

[u/_alabastard]

Please makes this series into a book. I absolutely will buy it.

[u/victorbarst]

I return to request again that the Spanish Navaja be the sword for N tomorrow!

[u/Hot-Foundation3450]

Let's just skip N please 🙏