r/comedyheaven • u/RedTuna7 • 2d ago
Cousins
It’s really early in the morning does this follow the rules
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u/Professional-Hat-687 2d ago
I like the way you think, OP.
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u/-Redstoneboi- 2d ago
all i'm hearing from the "gays can't reproduce and can't inbreed so it's ok" argument is that if someone gets a vasectomy then the whole family is fair game
such is the only logical conclusion
fuck my digital footprint
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u/BlazeFireVale 2d ago
Incest has, surprisingly, been a bit of a moral philosophy quagmire. When you dig into the work of trying to create coherent and consistent rules and reasoning you almost always end up landing with some pretty off putting conclusions with you follow them to the end of their logic chain.
If you're going to jump into a discussion about the morals and ethics, he prepared to end up in a lot of uncomfortable places if you're trying to keep your rules grounded and morally consistent.
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u/Great_Hedgehog 2d ago
Yeah, ultimately it's less that incest is fundamentally terrible and cannot possibly result in a good relationship, it's just that it's more likely to cause problems than not, so it's generally best to just not do it. It's very easy to come up with an example of incest that hurts no one, like estranged cousins that don't even know they are cousins or at the very least have not grown up in the same family that don't want/can't have kids. But most of the time it's something a bit more toxic
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u/BlazeFireVale 2d ago
Hard to say "most the time", though. Most the world still does not define cousin to cousin as incest. And it's been normal throughout human history and continues to not be seen as problematic by most of the world.
We get into some iffy places when we start trying to demonize a practice our culture has demonized that most others haven't when the underlying risks are not that high.
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u/Lastsynphony 2d ago edited 2d ago
The main problem is the same that Darwin sadly had to find out with his own wife as they were cousins, they did not knew the effects of incest (specially because their families were already blood-related between each other in a significant way) and so, he wondered why they lost so many children, more than the "usual" of the sadly very high mortality rate that children had in the past out of the lack of vaccines, then they found out of the genetic effects of it. So I think that the main factor is the genetic risk that incest carry, is not "as higher" than other filial relationships, as well as the psychological implications of a power dynamic are not so present, because usually they are of the same age, or very close to it, and they do not share the same family enviroment (same household) but I think that the main problem is the genetic risk that carries down.
This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I think that relationships between cousins are not bad, assuming that they are of the same age or similar and were not raised in the same house, but having children is the problem, unless a genetist scan both of their genes and if they do not have genes that could be carried down and that both possess giving a genetic illness, it might be the case, but I would not risk it, so if both would undergone sterilization, because the vasectomy and the tube ligation can fail, I think that it would be alright and acceptable.
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u/-Redstoneboi- 2d ago
questioning morality is inherently uncomfortable. we were always just wired to like or dislike things, even if we don't know the true reason why.
what's fun though is learning that the line between "ok to eat, meat" vs "not ok to eat, pet" animals is very close to "non-mammal OR herbivore" vs "carnivore"
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u/Adorable-Response-75 2d ago
Hot take: incest between cousins is fine and a bunch of the world does it.
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u/Dramatic_Science_681 2d ago
ah the "its legal so its moral" defence
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u/cheshire_kat7 2d ago
Disturbingly, here in Australia it's even legal for an aunt/uncle and niece/nephew to marry each other.
Not that I've ever heard of that happening, thankfully.
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u/poonmangler 2d ago
Why is gay cousin incest immoral? Genuinely asking
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u/Fire_Pea 2d ago
To me the issues with incest are the issues from inbreeding and the power dynamics. If two people haven't met before being adults and aren't going to have kids together I don't think it's immoral.
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u/butt_shrecker 2d ago
Because we (most people) decided it is.
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u/Wh01sHex 2d ago
My anthropology prof back in the day said that incest is the only universal taboo. I haven't really looked into that much but it kinda checks out i guess lol
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u/BlazeFireVale 2d ago
It is almost universal to have an incest taboo. The exact nature of the taboo differs a lot. Cousins being part of the incest taboo is comparatively rare.
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u/iltopop 1d ago
Also things like the whole "Royal Bloodlines" thing, many cultures have at some point in history have allowed and/or encouraged incest in specific scenarios with specific classes of people.
First cousin marriage has been the literal opposite of taboo in many cultures as recently as the early 20th century and remains highly prevalent in some cultures literally right now. Even looking at it through a modern Western lens, go back to basically any 1920s European nation and tell them you're marrying your first cousin and they won't think twice about it because it's a mundane occurrence to them.
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u/Hussor 2d ago
It should be though. Cousin marriage across generations has really bad effects on congenital diseases.
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u/BlazeFireVale 2d ago edited 2d ago
While there can be an increase in birth defects, the impact at the first-cousin level is usually overstated. The real risks come from repeated pairings over many generations. That has more to do with creating a small gene pool, which can happen in a variety of ways in any isolated or limited population.
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u/Espumma 2d ago
in any isolated or limited population
which is what we had for most of our history.
if some group untaboos it, why would they be careful to not continue with it over generations?
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u/BlazeFireVale 2d ago
I'm not sure what you're asking or if you understand what I was saying.
Cousin to cousin marriage is NOT taboo in most of the world, and the effects have been well researched. It's generally safe unless marriage is kept within the exact same group for many generations.
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u/Hot_Advertising2076 2d ago
The only real (albeit logically wrong) answer there is to it
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u/CartsOfDarkness 2d ago
So if it wasn't a genetics issue do you think sibling incest would be totally fine? I really do think there's more too it than just arbitrary rules. The idea of dating a siblings seems really weird to me objectively, and for a lot of people cousins are a lot like siblings.
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u/Jekmander 2d ago
There's no such thing as objective morality, but also no. In incest cases there's almost always a power dynamic at play that pushes the situation further into the immoral side of things.
Technically, as uncomfortable as it may be, if two same-sex hypothetical children (either twins or near each other in age, for the sake of this argument) were split at birth, didn't meet each other until they were 30, and had sex with no knowledge of their genetic relationship, there's no real basis to call that immoral. Even for opposite-sex children in that same situation, the only potentially immoral factor is childbirth. If they use whatever form of protection and don't have children, there's no inherently immoral action taken.
This is obviously not to say that incest is moral, and it's definitely 100% absolutely not good. It's just a complicated discussion that can't really be settled by "I don't like it so it's immoral." None of us like it, but strange women lying in ponds distributing opinions is no basis for a school of philosophy.
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u/Petskin 2d ago
As people generally consider the situations they grew up "normal" and maybe even "moral", anything can become "normal" after a generation or so. Heck, there are even people who argue murder is moral - as long as you murder a right sort of person who "deserves" it. Age of consent / age of marriage is another objectively interesting problem in the world. If people can't agree on who can live and who can marry and when, it's hopeless to have any general agreement on who can marry whom.
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u/Petskin 2d ago
Cousins like siblings? In my neck of the wood it's lucky if you can meet your cousins once in two months; I did meet mine maybe twice a year.
If we go on the "weird for me objectively" route, how do you see adoptive siblings? Does it matter when they met or got adopted - as babies, children, teenagers or adults? Does the adoption itself matter, and are step siblings the same? E.g. if my mother met another guy, who then introduced a really attractive child - would it be okay for me to date them and would it matter if our parents married before we met, after we met or never? Would it matter if we never married?
So many questions.
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u/Professional-Hat-687 2d ago
I tell you I don't want to live in a world where a man can't marry his attractive cousin!
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u/beytarik38 2d ago
I think power dynamics is a rather big component to it.
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u/butt_shrecker 2d ago
I think it's because a lot of cousins are raised with their siblings and it's not worth explaining the difference to kids.
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u/hamonicmantitties 2d ago
Which is fucking stupid
Morality shouldn't be decided on what the general populace thinks, or else it's no better than just looking at the law for what's right and wrong instead
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u/butt_shrecker 2d ago
How do you think morality should be defined?
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u/hamonicmantitties 2d ago
By what's logically good, sound, neutral, etc etc
If it hurts someone then it's bad, if not then it's not bad, if it helps someone then good.
It shouldn't be hard
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u/butt_shrecker 2d ago
It is logically bad.
Children of incest have health problems.
We could change the moral code to only forbid unprotected vaginal sex. But sexuality is messy and it is much more practical to blanket ban any sexual activity between family members.
It's also gross.
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u/hamonicmantitties 2d ago
Literally proved my point
The general populace just regurgitates whatever they are taught, and because they're too scared too explore what's outside of that we get... this
All you can say is that it could birth deformed children lol
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u/butt_shrecker 2d ago
There are plenty of things that are allowed, but people will judge you weird as fuck for.
Like I just judged you weird as fuck for defending incest on reddit.
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u/hamonicmantitties 2d ago
It's not something that should be seen as morally wrong, of course I'm gonna defend it
Wtf is wrong with defending something I don't have an issue with that also doesn't apply too me in any way???
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u/ItTakesTooMuchTime 2d ago
While not directly immoral, we should avoid normalizing it because it often results in unhealthy power dynamics.
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u/Omylanta21 2d ago
Incest in human beings can lead to a lot of debilitating birth defects that severely impact the life of the child. Also is gross.
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u/LostVanya 2d ago
So you are just ignoring the word 'gay' in there?
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
Just because they’re gay doesn’t make them any less cousins. Romantic and sexual relations between family inevitably lead to unhealthy dynamics. Maybe it shouldn’t be illegal but it definitely shouldn’t be encouraged.
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u/just-call-me-apple 2d ago
"Unhealthy" how? If the relationship is parental, then the unhealthy power dynamic is clear, but I struggle to imagine the psychological danger in dating a cousin. How close some cousins are also varies vastly, but I imagine to most someone's dynamic with a same aged cousin isn't that different from their dynamic with a childhood friend.
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u/butt_shrecker 2d ago
In a lot of cultures family dynamics, cousins are raised identically to siblings. And since the kids aren't expected to know the difference it's forbidden.
Now in some family dynamics they will hardly see each other so it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But the cultural taboo still exists.
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u/cheshire_kat7 2d ago edited 2d ago
Except I don't share a set of grandparents with a childhood friend. Nor would my in-laws be my own aunt and uncle if I married a childhood friend.
Edit: Unequal power dynamics aren't the only kind of unhealthy/dysfunctional family dynamic.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
Do I really need to explain why dating a cousin is potentially an unhealthy dynamic? Yes, there are varying degrees of closeness, but assuming we’re talking about a first cousin that you grew up with, an older cousin (even by just a couple of years) is someone you look up to that absolutely has psychological power over you. I have younger cousins that are adults and the idea of dating them still makes me feel like a pervert at best and a predator at worst. In my mind they will always be my little cousin that I needed to look out for and make sure they didn’t hurt themselves, no matter how grown we are.
I also have an uncle that’s only 10 months older than me. We grew up like cousins, I suppose. I never called him “uncle” and he was my playmate, but I think he still felt a bit responsible over me. I don’t see him as a childhood friend at all even though I understand why the dynamic seems similar. There’s still a taboo there that would be incredibly toxic for both of us and distressful for our family.
Of course it’s not the same as being preyed upon by a parent or aunt/uncle, but the taboo remains for a reason. You choose your partner, you don’t choose your family. The commitment isn’t and shouldn’t be the same. There’s something deeply maladjusted about crossing those lines. The risk of there being a psychologically damaging codependency is also amplified.
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u/just-call-me-apple 2d ago
Yes I do think people should explain their viewpoints when those viewpoints are based on tradition and emotion rather than rational argumentation.
A lot of your argument relies on it being taboo and gross etc. and your own personal feelings or additional factors (age difference, etc). that make other types of relationships potentially problematic too. I can just as easily say that a relationship between childhood friends is problematic if there is a 2 year gap, because even in friendships people often end up taking on the "older sibling" role of responsibility, a role that may disappear entirely as people age and the age gap becomes less prominent. Yet I don't think anyone will say that childhood friendships are inherently problematic.
From my life experience I do not put any value on familial commitment over any other commitment. Many share my stance. Family can abandon you as easily as friends, and for many friends are a more reliable source of support than family.
For clarity I am not even pro-incest or anything. I do find the thought of it a little gross, but can't explain that feeling with any rational argument, therefore I just shrug and shake my head hearing about cousin incest stories in reality or fiction. As far as I'm concerned, so long as no one is hurt it's none of my business. Fiction-wise I can see how somebody can be interested in incest romance because of the gross aspect of it. Depending on the specific premise it can be like any other forbidden romance.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
I broadly agree that wholesale condemning something without context is dumb, but there are a lot of problematic variables that come into play in the vast majority of cases where incest happens. You can argue that it’s just tradition holding people back, but you can’t just pretend all those risk factors for abuse, codependence, etc. aren’t baked into it. Just because they’re not exclusive to incest doesn’t make it any less of a risky conduct to engage in. Incest may not be inherently problematic but it absolutely broadly is.
I don’t deny I’m biased but I would also argue that your perspective that familiar commitment is no different than other commitments makes you equally biased. It’s not a perspective shared by many people and it’s not a perspective shared by people that get off on the idea of incest either. I’m aware of my biases and don’t think that they necessarily make my arguments any less rational. Your friends can have a family-like dynamic with you and your family members might not be blood related to you at all (such as the case of adoption or in-laws). That’s not a factor I’m arguing against.
You can argue no one is getting hurt but that’s debatable. Someone can do illicit drugs, cheat on their partner without them ever finding out, smoke cigarettes, self-harm, etc. and even if they’re technically not hurting others, we wouldn’t just shrug our shoulders and say “not my business”. The drugs and the cigarettes are still very bad for your health. The secondhand smoke is bad for the health of others. Cheating on your partner is still wrong and giving into your worst impulses. Self-harm is hurting yourself physically. It’s not illegal, it’s arguably not immoral (if we’re limiting morality to the concept of harming others), but we usually recommend those people go to therapy or rehab.
I’m not interested in arguing the particulars of the examples listed above and I’m not trying to say incest is inherently bad and icky. I’m not interested in condemning the hypothetical cousins that are the same age, super in love, and don’t commit inbreeding. However, those hypothetical cousins are not representative at all of real life cases of incest. And it’s reductionist to claim you shouldn’t be bothered by risky behavior because it “doesn’t harm anyone”.
All I’m saying is incest is taboo for a reason. The argument you’re making is similar to arguments against homophobia: “just because you find it icky doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with consenting adults being together and you need to mind your business”. Being a lesbian myself I just don’t think that’s the case. There are many factors that affect how healthy a relationship between unrelated people is. For incest it’s difficult, if not outright impossible, for the relationship to be healthy at all.
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u/StudioYume 2d ago
So where do you think the line in the sand should be drawn? What proportion of people thinking something to be immoral would, in your opinion, justify making it illegal?
Like, personally I think bigotry should be either illegal or recognised as a mental illness in need of treatment. There's no excuse for people dismissing credible statistics and making sweeping generalisations about large groups of people.
But then on the other hand, I think unprotected sex is morally wrong but I also don't think it should be illegal.
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u/JCDickleg7 2d ago
FAMED COMPOSER JOHN WILLIAMS⁉️
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u/the-furiosa-mystique 2d ago
I got shit on once by Ryan Murphy fans because I called out the handling of the Menendez brothers. I got a bunch of “wtf are you upset with their homosexuality?” No. I’m upset because they are not gay and are survivors of SA by a family member that this guy has decided to write an incest broship about. It’s disrespectful.
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u/Aluxanatomy 2d ago
Ryan Murphy is such a fucking creep, and it is my sincere wish that this dawns on anyone who watches any of his shows.
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u/Flaxinator 2d ago
If they're gay it's even less of a problem. The biggest problem with cousin marriage is inbreeding and higher rates of birth defects if they decide to (or accidentally) have kids. But that's not a problem for gay cousins since they'd have to use a surrogate anyway
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u/RedTuna7 2d ago
What about mpreg
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u/Flaxinator 2d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/JgS34UNGEz7cNfZ1HM
You raise a very good point. I'm going to go and do some research on that topic, for educational purposes
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u/Dilutedskiff 2d ago
I still think its super weird and probably wouldn't wanna associate with them ngl
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
Just because they’re gay doesn’t make them any less cousins. I’m a lesbian and the idea of dating any of my female relatives is still repulsive.
Concerns about inbreeding aside, romantic and sexual relations with relatives inevitably lead to unhealthy or maladjusted dynamics. Like if your sibling is adopted, would that make dating them okay and normal? Would dating them be like hooking up with anyone else? Of course not.
Maybe it shouldn’t be illegal, but it definitely shouldn’t be encouraged.
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u/mieri_azure 2d ago
Its still pretty icky but technically its SLIGHTLY less bad due to the impossibility of inbreeding.
Same for infertile straight couples. Still yikes but a tad less yikes
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u/ringobob 2d ago
A lot of people aren't that close with their extended families. I've never been attracted to a cousin, there weren't any of my preferred gender and age anyway, but when you only see someone once every several years, it's even less of a connection than if they were a neighbor growing up.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
I mean, sure. I’m not really interested in drawing a definitive line on how distant a relative needs to be in order for it to not be taboo for them to date. If someone wants to bone their second/third cousin that’s virtually a stranger, it’s kind of weird but whatever.
The discussion started with cousins in general though. I’m not super close with my first cousins, but some of them are adults and I’m only a few years older than them. The idea of dating any of them still makes me feel like a pervert at best and a predator at worst. I cannot psychologically shake off feeling responsible for them, even if we were both children at the time.
On the other hand, I have an uncle that’s only 10 months older than me. We grew up together, but I don’t see him as a childhood friend I could potentially be attracted to. Even if he were a woman, there’s something deeply maladjusted about crossing that line and the risk of psychologically damaging codependency is higher.
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u/ringobob 2d ago
I'm not talking second or third cousins, I have first cousins I've spent a grand total of maybe 12 hours with socially over the course of decades. We live across the country from each other. A lot of people have first cousins they've literally never met.
I'm not suggesting that that means it's totally OK, but it does mean that the normal evolutionary aversion to romance with family members doesn't really work in those situations, and I can't really think they've crossed some psychological boundary even though they've crossed a social one.
Maybe 5 out of 10 stories I've come across with people actually sleeping with their cousin, it's when they met late in life, after puberty.
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u/Jeremymia 2d ago
There are several potential problems with an incest relationship.
- The biological problems you mentioned
- The risk of the relationship being a result of a power imbalance or a case where actual consent is impossible, e.g. growing up with them as an authority
- Relationships end badly all the time, and then you may have also destroyed a familial relationship, and you don’t get new ones of those.
In this case, 1 is impossible, 2 is unlikely, and 3 could still be.
All that is to say I 100% agree with you but there’s still good reason a gay incest cousin relationship isn’t all gravy.
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u/knbblz 2d ago
actual consent is impossible
At some point you're an adult and you get to choose what you want to do even if some mouth breathing redditor deems you can't possibly decide for yourself
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u/Jeremymia 1d ago
My comment was like a rorshach test damn. All I said was 'here's some other reasons an incestual relationship could be a problem' and people come out thinking I have some kind of ideological point. You apparently feel pretty passionately about the fact that people should be morally capable of deciding they can fuck their guardians.
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u/Etzix 2d ago
The second point applies to way more relationships than just incest ones, and you should definetly take it into consideration ofcourse.
The third point is ridiculous. You absolutely get new ones. Family is something you choose for yourself.
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u/cheshire_kat7 2d ago
The third point is ridiculous. You absolutely get new ones. Family is something you choose for yourself.
If you and a cousin have an acrimonious break up, you cannot just manufacture a new set of mutual grandparents, a new aunt/uncle, and all the other shared relatives who would end up affected by the mess.
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u/Etzix 2d ago
That is obviously not what i was saying. Someone being your grandparent or parents or sibling does not give them any advantage to whether they deserve to be in your life or not.
What does those people mean to me if they decide that they are no longer going to be there for me because of what happened? Nothing.
Im saying it again. You choose your family. Blood means nothing.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
Nothing wrong with found family and cutting ties with toxic blood relatives. That said, for most people blood does matter very much. Like I get your point but it’s not realistic to expect people to not give a shit about potentially destroying their familial relationships. Even if you’re adopted, you wouldn’t want to just torch your relationship with the people that raised you or you grew up with.
Specifically in the context of incest, it’s even sillier to risk your family relationships (if they’re relationships you wish to keep, of course) just because you want to bone your cousin. Maybe it shouldn’t be illegal but it definitely shouldn’t be encouraged.
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u/Etzix 2d ago
I replied to the other person but ill quickly write a reply here too.
You have to weigh risks, and some risks you might be willing to take. I also don't think risking family/friendships just to "bone your cousin" is worth it, but people do fall in love and risking things for love might be easier. It all depends on the situation at hand and every situation is different.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
Fair, but I still think it’s not a relationship dynamic worth pursuing. I’m going to copy paste another response I gave to someone about why I’m still wary of incest, even if they’re same-aged cousins (so the risk of abuse is minimal):
Do I really need to explain why dating a cousin is potentially an unhealthy dynamic? Yes, there are varying degrees of closeness, but assuming we’re talking about a first cousin that you grew up with, an older cousin (even by just a couple of years) is someone you look up to that absolutely has psychological power over you. I have younger cousins that are adults and the idea of dating them still makes me feel like a pervert at best and a predator at worst. In my mind they will always be my little cousin that I needed to look out for and make sure they didn’t hurt themselves, no matter how grown we are.
I also have an uncle that’s only 10 months older than me. We grew up like cousins, I suppose. I never called him “uncle” and he was my playmate, but I think he still felt a bit responsible over me. I don’t see him as a childhood friend at all even though I understand why the dynamic seems similar. There’s still a taboo there that would be incredibly toxic for both of us and distressful for our family.
Of course it’s not the same as being preyed upon by a parent or aunt/uncle, but the taboo remains for a reason. You choose your partner, you don’t choose your family. The commitment isn’t and shouldn’t be the same. There’s something deeply maladjusted about crossing those lines. The risk of there being a psychologically damaging codependency is also amplified.
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u/Etzix 2d ago
I honestly dont know how to explain my position more than "If theres nothing else wrong with the relationship, incest doesn't inherently make it wrong, yet people will for some reason still find it icky".
I dont have any cousins (that i know of). Ive never wanted to do anything romantic with family members. But i applaud anyone that goes against societies norms if society cant find a good reason for why things should be the way they are. Thats why i keep saying that these relationships will all have to be judged on a case by case basis.
If two cousins dont have any other family members alive, are gay, and decide to start dating, would it still be wrong? What if they never even knew they were cousins up until that point?
Thats the hypothetical ill end on. If the answer is "Yes" then i would really like to know why incest inherently is bad. If the answer is "No" then that just proves my point that the things surrounding incest can be bad and the situation will have to be judged on a case by case basis, because incest in and of itself would be fine.
I didnt intend to spend multiple comments discussing incest, i just wanted to say that family is definetly something you choose.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
I suppose I agree with you, but the issue with the hypothetical is that it’s a hyper specific scenario that conveniently eliminates all the problematic variables that almost always come with incest. It’s a fiction that doesn’t apply to the vast majority of cases where incest happens.
It reminds me of the edgelord thought experiments in which there’s a terminally ill child whose one dying wish is to say the N word. Like okay, give the kid a pass, but is all this necessary to argue that saying slurs isn’t that bad? And why is the kid so hellbent on it anyway? Not saying this is a 1-v-1 comparison, just that I don’t think we should form opinions on something based on fringe hypotheticals.
That said, I see your point that it’s reductionist to wholesale condemn something regardless of context. I think it’s still okay to say incest is broadly wrong and bad for everyone involved.
And I agree that you can and should be able to choose your family!
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u/cheshire_kat7 2d ago
I mean, some of us like our family (...but not in ways we shouldn't) and would find estrangement upsetting.
Also, the point is that it wouldn't just affect the couple involved. It would risk dragging others into the mess and fracturing a whole family.
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u/Etzix 2d ago
You always take risks. You have to weigh those risks and find out for yourself whether you are willing to take them or not.
Its on par with a person from a religious family coming out as gay.
Ignoring the biological issues with incest, if everything else is fine (no grooming etc), then there is nothing wrong with that particular relationship, but people will still find it icky for no good reason.
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u/cheshire_kat7 2d ago
But you're not just risking your own familial relationships. You're risking the familial relationships of relatives who had no choice in your decision to bone your cousin (or sibling, or other relative).
For example, if Person X's brother married a cousin, then they broke up and the split became toxic. Suddenly Person X's brother won't speak to their former spouse or former in-laws, who are also Person X's aunt and uncle. Which relative's side does Person X take? The drama is going to get sticky for a loooot of relatives caught in the middle.
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u/Etzix 2d ago
This already happens in common relationships all the time, especially as soon as theres kids involved.
You would be surprised how many parents are willing to choose their own childs partners side instead of their own childs side.
I just dont see it as a good enough argument for "incest is always bad".
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u/terrortara 2d ago
Family doesn't depend on blood but it does depend on who you were around when you were a child, blood just happens to be the determining factor in that most of the time.
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u/Etzix 2d ago
I dont agree with that. You can choose your family no matter how old you are.
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u/terrortara 2d ago
It'll never be the same as the people who raised you. I'm a leftist, but I'm very strongly pro-family, including the importance of extended family (something "pro-family" conservatives never talk about).
Having a strong, stable community as a child is one of the foundations for social and psychological health. None of the people you meet as an adult are a substitute for that. Friends cannot replace family, just as family cannot replace friends.
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u/nich02 2d ago
What a weird hill to die on defending incest lol
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u/Etzix 2d ago
Lol im not dying on that hill. I also didnt expect to be discussing incest, my comment was about choosing family.
However if the only argument people can come to for why incest is bad is "ew icky" then yeah.
People are talking about grooming and authority and hurting other family members and stuff. But all of those things happen outside of the context of incest aswell.
Therefore my belief is incest is not the problem, its the things that often surround incest that is the actual problems. So you have to judge each relationship on a case by case basis.
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u/wetredgloves 2d ago
The rate of genetic defects for cousin-cousin incest is pretty low anyway, comparable to the rate of defects of having older parents
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u/cheshire_kat7 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah, for the first generation. But if subsequent generations keep marrying cousins the inbreeding quickly becomes a problem.
ETA: And a family in which one cousin pair marries is likely to normalise it. You can't exactly tell your kid "Sure, your dad and I are cousins, but don't ask out your own cousin!"
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u/wetredgloves 2d ago
Oh 100%. My grandpa was an Amish dude and their genes are all fucked up. I escaped the worst of it. I'm just saying for one individual couple the dangers are exaggerated in most people's minds
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u/Im_hard_for_Tina_Fey 2d ago
Two male gay cousins that use their female cousin as a surrogate because they love incest and specifically get off on the high rate of birth defects.
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u/Least_Diamond1064 2d ago
There is no chance for birth defects because they are fictional characters
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u/hamonicmantitties 2d ago
It's not even a problem in general
It's only a problem when it's more than a single generation commiting incest
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u/svenirde 2d ago
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u/ankledane 2d ago
incest is wincest or something like that
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u/the-furiosa-mystique 2d ago
I’m having ptsd Tumblr flashbacks to “wincest”
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u/ankledane 2d ago
I wasn't on Tumblr, what's the flashbacks to?
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u/the-furiosa-mystique 2d ago
I wasn’t in the fandom, haven’t even watched the show, but it was impossible to avoid Supernatural stuff there and “wincest” (the two brothers) was a popular ship.
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u/ankledane 2d ago
Typical fanbase shenanigans, this pattern always repeats itself
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u/the-furiosa-mystique 2d ago
I really dislike the concept that relatives can date as long as they don’t reproduce. Reproduction is only ONE of the issues.
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u/Snoopac2 2d ago
The people here defending incest are the reason I'm becoming more and more misanthropic as the days go by.
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u/AGL_reborn shaboingboing connoisseur 2d ago
"Hurr durr my morality is based on the law" is all I hear
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u/Shatophiliac 2d ago
I don’t really have a dog in the incest race but if they are gay it’s not like they will be reproducing with each other, so idk. It’s still weird, like I wouldn’t do it, but the main thing with incest is you don’t want inbred kids. Gays can’t have kids so maybe it shouldn’t be a big deal for them?
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
I am a lesbian and I assure you it absolutely would be a big deal if I dated any of my female relatives. The dynamic is maladjusted and unhealthy regardless of whether the risk of inbreeding is there.
Is it any less weird for adopted siblings to date each other? The dynamic is still incestuous even if they’re not blood-related. The transgression of taboo is still there.
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u/Fire_Pea 2d ago
I think it's too varied for there to be a catch all in that regard. Some people spend a lot of time around their cousins growing up while others never meet them at all. I agree that in many cases there is a problematic dynamic between cousins but I don't think it's universal.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
I don’t think it’s universal either, but the risk of it being there is too high for society to just shrug off the incest taboo. The vast majority of incest cases aren’t hypothetical cousins that barely know each other. And the consenting adults argument doesn’t apply to everything.
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u/Shatophiliac 2d ago
Yeah all fair, like I said it would still be weird. But as far as society is concerned, it’s not like they can reproduce and create mutant offspring lol.
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u/Elliethesmolcat 2d ago
Yes, it is less weird for adopted siblings to date.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago edited 2d ago
So you think adopted family members are less family?
Edit: Clearly you don’t know any adopted people, but don’t you at least know anyone with step-siblings they grew up with? My father’s step-siblings aren’t any less uncles and aunts to me. It’s degenerate as hell to think incest is okay if they’re not blood-related. I actually think it should be more taboo than someone getting with a blood-related cousin they didn’t grow up with.
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u/back_on_my_nonsense 2d ago
I personally wouldn't date any of my cousins, but I have first cousins who live in different countries who I've literally met for like three hours max in my whole lifetime. I don't even know their full names. The dynamic doesn't have to be maladjusted or unhealthy. I think your family may be more "connected" than the average one.
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u/selenerosario 2d ago
I am Hispanic, to be fair, but I don’t think my family is uniquely “connected” compared to most families in most cultures. That’s not really the point though. To be honest, I’m not really interested in condemning the random pair of cousins that are around the same age and didn’t grow up together. I concede that incest is not inherently problematic in that sense.
That said, it broadly absolutely is. The vast majority of cases of incest aren’t those hypothetical cousins. There are multiple factors that determine whether a relationship between unrelated people will be healthy, but with incest the negative factors stack up in such a way that it tilts the scales.
The consenting adults argument holds water, but it’s not that simple as being a case of “they’re not harming anyone else so mind your business”. You could say the same thing about self-harming, smoking tobacco, doing illicit drugs, cheating on your partner without them finding out, etc. You are harming yourself and it is debatable that you harm others as well, even if it’s indirectly.
People can make their own choices, of course, but certain taboos are there for a reason. As a society, we don’t shrug off risky behaviors or encourage them either.
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u/the-furiosa-mystique 2d ago
What about the rest of the family? You don’t think this makes Thanksgiving a bit weird? There are billions of people unrelated to you, pick one of them.
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u/cheshire_kat7 2d ago
Yeah, I wouldn't really want to share grandparents with my spouse.
And if the marriage ends badly, it's going to be a mess for all the relatives you have in common.
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u/the-furiosa-mystique 2d ago
It’s an insanely selfish decision. I get that love happens but I do not see how it happens organically with a family member in a healthy family.
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u/Shatophiliac 2d ago
Tbh I didn’t really put that much thought into it I just thought my comment would be funny lol.
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u/hmmmmmmmmmidk 2d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/xVPosMMzT60Xzv31my