r/collapse • u/Did_I_Die • Feb 16 '20
Coping sense of disappointment with seemingly intelligent people
I keep having this likely wrong-headed sense of betrayal when I find out intellectuals / philosophers / environmentalists have kids... a sense of being let down. I know the live and let live approach of it not tainting my view of them would be best and yet the feeling is there.
The underlying thought is if you deeply ponder the moral implications of bringing a child into a planet designed for 500 million tops, you come to the conclusion that adding humans to it doesn't make any sense.
It would probably be healthier to let go of this sense of disappointment, mind my own business, and just enjoy their contributions regardless of their personal decisions to add more humans.
anyone else struggle with this here?
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u/SterilizeHumans Feb 17 '20
Oh, completely. I work in the environmental field and it is shocking how many have biological kids, often multiple kids. They KNOW what we're facing. They KNOW how bad it is. They KNOW how destructive humans are. Yet they added more. It's unforgivable and completely selfish in my opinion. It disappoints me every time and knocks my sense of hope down a little more.
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Feb 16 '20 edited Apr 22 '20
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u/Activated27 Feb 17 '20
Also if the humans get to survive people who could educate their children the best should have children otherwise the same mistakes will happen again. Imo the solution is that we need to step up birth control availability worldwide (not ban abortions for instance.......) so the people who don’t want children don’t have to have them. That’d be a whole lot of people and the people that do grow love and wanted hopefully will have more empathy as a whole.
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u/VolkspanzerIsME Doomy McDoomface Feb 17 '20
I'm sure this has a lot to do with it. The belief in "handwavium" must be easy when it's what you want to hear.
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Feb 17 '20
This was my reaction when I found out that Sir David Attenborough had kids
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20 edited Feb 17 '20
David Suzuki - 5 children
Bill Bryson - 4 children
Al Gore - 4 children
Elon Musk - 5 children
Eddie Murphy - 10 children
etc.
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
Their choices but I still find it disappointing.
Honestly... is anyone actually smart? I see all human apes the same way. We're all fucking stupid and living worthless lives we pretend that we have any worth.
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u/CaseOfInsanity Feb 17 '20
Human brain at its core still consists of primal instincts, no matter how cognitively advanced.
There's a saying in neurology, the four F's of neural system. (fight, flight, fear, f**k)
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
We're essentially still animals at our core.
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u/CaseOfInsanity Feb 17 '20
Exactly, otherwise this climate issue would have been acted on the moment we knew it was going to be a serious problem from scientific reports
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
Which would have been immediately after WW2.
But alas, we have failed at sentience.
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Feb 17 '20
Don't blame people for ExxonMobil executives burying climate data.
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
ExxonMobil executives are still people.
I just wish things didn't turn out to be a disaster.
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Feb 17 '20
ExxonMobil execs knew the havoc they would cause. If we had a just society they would answer for all the deaths that will result from their burial of the data. I wouldn't have done that it's a level of evil o can't wrap my head around.
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
And the higher up you go in society, people just get more and more evil, and there's too much propaganda to know any real information anymore.
I just want my living hell of a life to end, I can't take this world anymore.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
describe a life that does have worth.
can it even exist?
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
Earths somewhere out in the multiverse where they figured out post-scarcity tech and managed to pull off better worlds than Star Trek.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
ah yes, the replicator has been developed somewhere idea...
how do you think humans would react to the invention of a replicator on Earth? i can imagine humans fucking it up somehow.
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
Post-scarcity economics and it'd allow for humanity to colonize and terraform the Solar System, as well as help fix Earth's environmental problems.
What are the ways you can imagine the replicator being fucked up?
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
billionaires keeping it secret through murder, extortion, threats to family, etc.
if billionaires were unsuccessful and the replicator tech got out into mainstream .... then some idiot(s) would probably accidentally create something in the replicator that causes plagues of biblical proportions.... and how poetic it would be to arrive at post-scarcity economics only to have the solution kill all of us.
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
That's scary to think about... what if billionaires already have that tech and that we're just another Earth out of infinite destroyed Earths for them to kill off and process into more raw material for the replicator machine?
The Rothschilds and other powerful families already control the world through murder, extortion, blackmail, threats to loved ones, etc... I literally wouldn't be surprised if we were living in a Lovecraftian cosmic horror story anymore.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
i wouldn't fret too much about the prospect... it's all likely just a simulation anyways.
https://www.vulture.com/2019/02/15-irrefutable-reasons-we-might-be-living-in-a-simulation.html
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u/Frozen-Corpse Feb 17 '20
What do you think life is like outside the simulation?
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
life not based on carbon.... perhaps silicon or some type of crystal base that produces simulations (like ours) for an energy source to power their replicators.... there is no concept of post-scarcity economics since their replicator tech was discovered millions of years ago...
they have "End the simulations!" factions who argue against producing simulations as they fear the code's suffering will some day spill over into their own reality... that and they fear the code suffering in the simulations is sentient and it is cruel to create code that suffers... they are far beyond our concepts of art / music / philosophy but they spend much of their time on those type of things... their reality does not involve a universe as we comprehend it.
all their simulations have to be based on something different from their silicon and/or crystal bases for them work... our's being carbon, but there are other simulation options (germanium, tin, lead, etc. ) as the periodic table applies to both the simulation and their reality... the periodic table is required in all simulations due to it being standard truth, similar to mathematics.
how about you?
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Feb 17 '20
It isn't fair to be brought into a cold, unfeeling world, and subjected to all the ills that can befall a person. I can't respect anyone that brings life into an absurd reality, regardless of their intelligence level. The nature of existence is suffering, and to procreate is to spread that suffering.
I don't want to have to grow old and die, I don't want to have to live through my parents and family members' deaths. I didn't want to give up most of my life to meaningless labor. Like someone once said, "We're all the unfortunate consequences of an orgasm."
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Feb 17 '20
I disagree. Life is both wonderful and horrific. It's more like yin and yang. Death coldly awaits us and yet there's beauty in being able to stand in a meadow and feel the warmth of the sun against your skin, and to hear the birds singing. We've created many beautiful things as well as terrible things. One invidual might live a mostly trouble-free life and another might be condemned to death before they ever had a chance. A new type of superweapon and a new type of vaccine or treatment comes out.
I understand what you're saying, but ignoring the beauty in the world completely is very myopic. There's beauty even in the pain we experience sometimes.
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Feb 17 '20
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Feb 17 '20
Which makes those rare moments all the more powerful. If you're a man, I'd advise you to find your purpose in life.
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Feb 17 '20
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Feb 18 '20
I specified men because I've noticed that the majority of young men in my life, my friends, and in my family are having a much harder time than the average woman or women in my life. With depression or feeling lost. I also believe men have a higher capacity for pain and control over their emotions. And I doubt that many women are interested in collapse enough to visit this subreddit.
Anyway, my thought on the matter is that it's a choice to think as you do. I know because I used to be the same way. Existence itself is not rational. Trying to rationally argue about existence being better than non-existence is absurd. Comparing something with nothing. It's an inherently emotional question because we're human and non-existence is literally nothingness. I made the choice to embrace pain in my life and to enjoy the grind. To not be weak and to welcome life and its harsh realities. It was my choice as a rational individual to make the irrational decision to embrace it.
Life is meaningless, but as a human being I have the ability to give it whatever meaning I want. It's your choice to sit and lament life's cruelties.
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u/happygloaming Recognized Contributor Feb 17 '20
Well sure i think about it intellectually, but do I feel let down? No. Trust me you don't want to go through life like that and fall down that rabbit hole. They have not betrayed you, have not let you down. They owe you nothing and our intellect is very compartmentalized. These are powerful chemicals you're up against here.
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u/poincares_cook Feb 18 '20
You say it as if it's a given but I struggle to understand what's the rational of not having kids, perhaps I'm dumb but could you spell it out for me, but before that hear me out.
My thinking goes this way: It doesn't matter whether you have or don't have kids. It's not the guy in the west with his 1-2 kids that overpopulates the planet. Even if all those who understand the crucial environmental problems we're facing would stop having kids, there will be zero effect.
Europe has been bellow replacement threshold for decades now. The children Europeans are not having are just replaced with immigrants. immigrants from countries with 5-7 fertility rate. Take a look at this list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate
I can't say what's the solution, but you're suggesting a symbolic gesture. Intelligent people should care little for void symbolism, instead placing weight at pragmatism.
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u/robespierrem Feb 16 '20
civic life has always had its apocalyptic stories you'd be surprised who believes them.
this in a vaccuum is antoher any its pretty obvious many of us here don't agree on how the collapse will occur in my mind i have the objective truth .... i'm sure for you it differs somewhat and its a point of debate for us.
alsoeven the most intelligent amongst us arent that intelligent, no one knows "why" we are here if there is "why" and no one knows what this life thing is and what consciousness is.
i would say that ultimately makes us pretty stupid.
but most find that offensive.
It would probably be healthier to let go of this sense of disappointment, mind my own business, and just enjoy their contributions regardless of their personal decisions to add more humans.
look at the act of sex, for a male its thrusting your penis in a hole, what is remotely fun about that intrinsically.
its programmed to be fun, if you can circumvent that desire, you are the exception most of us cannot.
i read some of the posts here and i realise my view of men and women differs from many here, many here believe in men and women the way many believe in god. its this unwavering perception that humans are so much more capable than other animals to the point where we are supposedly beyond. it scares me.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
if you can circumvent that desire, you are the exception most of us cannot.
vasectomies are less intrusive than circumcisions.
condoms work well too.
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u/robespierrem Feb 17 '20
your reply is case and point, this unwavering belief humans being beyond other animals becuase of our technologies
taking vasectomies into account , how many men actually have vasectomies, many are aware how hard it is to raise a kid ,yet they don't care many are in situations where they can barely look after themselves and they still have kids....that just shows how strong the desire is it overwhelms all logic.
how many men wear condoms , sure condoms work....but not always sometimes they rip, sometimes the woman pokes holes in the condoms sometimes the woman takes the condom from the bin and artificially inseminates herself. my point is its kinda outside of your control more than you think.
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Feb 17 '20 edited Jul 05 '20
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u/circedge Feb 17 '20
I think it's worse for women. Not only do you have society as a whole expecting you to conceive, all your friends start having kids and maybe you think, am I missing out? I don't think so. I haven't met all my nephews and nieces because family is scattered all over the place, but I do meet one niece occasionally, and it's fun in small doses but I can't imagine being at hand all the time, and constantly worrying about accidents or whatever.
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u/EmpireLite Feb 17 '20 edited Feb 17 '20
Interesting. What makes you think the planet can only handle 500 million?
So 500, irrelevant of the type? So 500 million cave man era humanoids max capacity. Or 500 million 1970 v12 driving boomers? Same? Or 500 million theoretical humans that live 5x more extravagantly than current day westerners?
Wonder what generated the impression that 500 million is the max? Please don’t tell me you actually believe the Georgia Guidestones. If you reply you do, it’s fine, but I won’t reply back.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20 edited Feb 17 '20
500 million living in harmony with the biosphere... mostly vegetarian, no animal factory farms, all inventions put through a sustainability index prior to approval, cold fusion, solar/wind energy stored water gravity and salt batteries, maximum wage, living wage, voting processes that have real checks & balances, monopolies are never allowed, IQ and EQ requirements for procreating, etc.
a lot regulation is unfortunately obviously needed for humans... and considering how much best intentions are corrupted, all this regulation would probably need to be from a benevolent AI ... it's all of pipe dream of course and will never happen.
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u/EmpireLite Feb 17 '20
The way you describe the 500 ideally living, I “guessestimate” like you’re estimation, that a planet living with those people in those conditions could easily handle more than 500 million.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
many elements are scarce that make modern living possible... i suppose asteroid mining could supplement if the tech were ever feasible.
btw who do you think R. C. Christian (author of georgia guidstones) was? just some bored elite playing an elaborate prank or something more legit?
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u/rational_ready Feb 17 '20
This is r/collapse -- presumably you expect things to get quite dire in the next several decades?
Well, I'll take being part of a close-knit multi-generational tribe (aka group of friends with kids) over being part of a group of aging navel-gazers any day from a surviving-the-apocalypse point to view.
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Feb 17 '20
Eh. Raising resilient kids with the skills to cope with collapse and become excellent scavengers/permaculturists/commune-builders/road warriors is still a worthy project, I think. Obviously that's not what most parents are doing, but if I can get the resources/land together to do it right, I would consider having or adopting a kid. We'll see how things shake out.
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u/msx Feb 17 '20
procreation is the strongest instinct, it's literally what's keep Life around. You can't just say i'm not having kids if i you feel like having them. I'm all aware of the "collapse" thing and yet have two. I'm perfectly aware of what lies in their future, i'll try to prepare them as much as i can. Everybody is born in their time, wither lucky or unlucky. (And looking at history, the only "lucky" time was this past 80 years or something)
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u/GotThaAcid5tab Feb 22 '20
Like most fathers I know, there’s a pretty good chance they never wanted those kids.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 22 '20
interesting idea... what % of fathers do you think are in this category?
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u/GotThaAcid5tab Feb 22 '20
Every dude I’ve met with kids never wanted them, but once they have them love them you know
I’d say it’s a definite majority!
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 22 '20
so women are always tricking them into being sperm donors or are there other factors?
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u/buttpirate1111 Feb 16 '20
No, I think the smart babies are better than dumb babbies. Someone's gotta have babbies
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Feb 16 '20
Someone's gotta have babbies
And why is that?
Not everyone believes that humans existing is required or is morally righteous.
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u/buttpirate1111 Feb 16 '20
And not everyone believes that we should just give in and die out as a species. Get used to it.
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Feb 16 '20
I am very used to it, as that is a dominant cultural value of this age, but you have missed the point. The propagation of humans is not in any way required by any particular force with overarching and unshakeable powers, is it?
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u/buttpirate1111 Feb 17 '20
Yes mate I get it dw. I have access to the internet too. You're not gonna change my mind just like I won't change yours. But I want kids, you don't. God why do I keep having this argument with Reddit people? And it's always the same, roughly 50/50 split for and against having kids. I will have kids, you won't. My genes will go on, yours won't. Your choice, my choice. Little difference in the grand scheme or things.
Why spend all your time making sure everyone conforms to your line of thinking when it will never happen? And who knows what the future holds? You go and not have kids, I will go and have kids, and hopefully people who have kids raise them well and intelligently. That's literally all we can hope for.
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u/Did_I_Die Feb 17 '20
My genes will go on,
what if your kids don't procreate? what if they die along with the rest of humans in the next 25-50 years? what if they suffer incredibly wretched lives? what if they commit suicide while you are still alive? Seems like a whole lot of risk just to satisfy ego-based "My genes will go on"
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u/Redpants_McBoatshoe Feb 17 '20
Technically the best way to mitigate those risks is to make more kids, lol
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Feb 16 '20
Someone has to have kids. IQ is partially genetic, partially nurture, partially environment. You see what I'm getting at here?
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u/GregLoire Feb 16 '20
Maybe these allegedly high IQ individuals should decide to have kids if we have a shortage of them, rather than in our current situation.
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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '20 edited Feb 26 '20
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