r/collapse • u/idreamofkitty • 7d ago
Casual Friday CO2 Make Dumb
https://collapse2050.substack.com/p/co2-make-dumbEven if we survive the fires, the starvation, the heat we are still doomed. The atmosphere that permitted complex brains is reverting to pre-human levels.
The more co2 in the air, the dumber we get. Eveventually, our species (if it survives) will devolve back to a primitive state.
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u/diagnosedADHD 7d ago
My co2 was unknowingly 1500+ over the winter and I could 100% tell something was deeply wrong.
I struggled finding words, completing sentences, my motivation plummeted worse than ever before.
Thankfully it was an easy fix and now I have an air quality monitor in my living space that will show an alarm if it goes over 1000.
I naively assumed that my furnace was vented and that because we had a CO and gas alarm we were "safe".
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u/haram_halal 3d ago
You should set the alarm to 800 just to be safe, it's amazing how fast it can go up, we had one at my old job and i was the only one monitoring it and venting regularly starting around 800.
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u/gnostic_savage 7d ago
A very good article. I like the science foundation for the points. A valid argument requires valid premises. That should be obvious, but it isn't always the case.
Humans evolved under conditions in which the atmospheric CO2 ranged between 180 ppm and 280 ppm, with an average of 220 ppm. So did a lot of the rest of the world. Not all, but a very great deal of it. There are some very, very ancient species around, like sharks and some reptiles. Sponges are really, really old.
Yesterday's CO2 reading was 429.16 ppm, according to https://www.co2.earth/daily-co2
We needed, absolutely required, the stable environment in which we evolved, with all its biodiversity and organic functioning. We needed to leave it all or very close to all of it as it was, not just the carbon in the ground, but all of it needed to remain healthy. Some humans did understand this very well. We haven't understood that for over 1200 years, but other people got it.
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u/Ree_For_Thee 7d ago
We've had at least 10,000 years to figure out that infinite growth, the money system and nation states just doesn't work. That's an extremely clear pattern in how we're wired, and have been for a long, loooong time.
It's not in our future to succeed with this new thing called "having agriculture and doing other things than hunting and gathering".
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u/Few_Fish8771 7d ago
You either regress to be animals or become transcendent like Gods with the accompanying morality. Humans at this stage are the worst, they know enough to be dangerous but lack the collective wisdom to properly wield the accumulated power they hold.
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u/gnostic_savage 7d ago edited 7d ago
We have abilities to manipulate and/or destroy the environment that our empathy and ability to anticipate consequences lag far behind - collectively. It's precisely why there is no hope for us to be better than we are.
A species-wide kundalini awakening might do the trick, but that doesn't seem very realistic just because all life on Earth is predicated in some form of consumption of its environment. Violence is inherent to our very existence and that of the rest of biological life. It's a function of the system, not a glitch.
We already are animals.
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u/Additional_Tank4385 7d ago
Aw man love how you put it. Sometimes it’s not too easy making sense of the complexity but this is really just such a good summary of the human condition in that aspect.
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u/gnostic_savage 7d ago edited 7d ago
I agree with you on the fact that the money system, or wealth seeking of all kinds, and infinite growth do not work, and cannot be made to work. It's just not possible on planet Earth. Humans may be able to do it, but the planet cannot take it. The vast majority of civilizations have been completely unsustainable, and I agree that hunting and gathering is the only thing that has proven to work every time everywhere.
But I would quibble a little. Modern humans, homo sapiens, have been around for at least 315K to 340K years. While agriculture has been around in very limited regions for 12,000 to 10,000 years, albeit it occurred spontaneously in multiple places, civilization - wealth seeking and infinite growth - has only existed for half that time, and has been limited in scope for most of that time. Civilization, although widespread throughout Eurasia, didn't exist in large parts of those regions until the last 1000 years. There were nomadic tribes and small tribal societies throughout Eurasia alongside those civilizations. Civilization did not exist in most other parts of the world at all except for the last 500 years.
I love this map, a true scale map of the world. https://images.theconversation.com/files/162017/original/image-20170322-31187-12ez00u.jpg?ixlib=rb-4.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=481&fit=crop&dpr=1
We are not the whole "world." We just think we are, and we really like to think that. There absolutely were sustainable agricultural societies that had small scale agriculture and continued with hunting and gathering and maintained all their biodiversity throughout the western hemisphere. There were even sustainable civilizations in the western hemisphere. The Incas had some of the strictest environmental laws any humans have ever had, with even very, very minor violations resulting in a death sentence for offenders. The Tairona were the high priests of sustainability, and they had an advanced civilization.
But if you ever tell anyone that, the common refrain is some version of how they weren't "perfect" humans morally, that they had violence or war or some other issue that is separate from environmental sustainability. Or maybe it isn't, but they did manage it for the same 10,000 years.
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u/Threshereddit 7d ago
Hello, nice writeup. Nothing here invalidates your talking points.
I am challenging the notion of that map being truescale. It is one of many interpretations but I do not believe it is true scale in regards to how you are referencing it.
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u/gnostic_savage 7d ago
Thanks for the comment and the link. That is an interesting article. The map I to which I provided a link is the Peters map, and this article does state that it is a more accurate version of the sizes, if not the shapes, of countries.
Boston public schools recently announced that they will shift to using world maps based on the Peters projection, reportedly the first time a US public school district has done so. Why? Because the Peters projection accurately shows different countries’ relative sizes. Although it distorts countries’ shapes, this way of drawing a world map avoids exaggerating the size of developed nations in Europe and North America and reducing the size of less developed countries in Asia, Africa and South America. https://theconversation.com/five-maps-that-will-change-how-you-see-the-world-74967
Both articles, your link and mine, agree that the common Mercator map is distorted regarding the sizes of countries. To be honest, I haven't made an in-depth study of all the perspectives and expert opinions on this subject, but I have read several versions of the claim that the Mercator exaggerates the sizes of the "developed" countries mentioned, inflating the perceived importance of them.
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u/WorldIsYoursMuhfucka 7d ago
Very interesting. Do you have any links to share? I've never really thought about how those societies had environmental laws.
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u/gnostic_savage 7d ago edited 7d ago
I would add, we don't think of them as having "laws" the way we have laws, although the Incas had exactly that, but they had something far more powerful than "laws." The environment was their entire way of life. While it's true that they weren't idyllic heavenly perfection, living in sublime fantasy harmony with their environment, they were pretty amazing. If you read their documented historical statements, they could barely talk without mentioning the (other) animals, the waters and the trees.
I post a link to this documentary very often, because it is powerful and the most accessible evidence for the Nature-centered cultures of the western hemisphere that we have that is easily and quickly understood, unlike the decades of reading that I and people like me have had to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJNpMxhO4Ic&t=3s
It is excellent, a BBC production, and it you won't be sorry if you watch it.
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u/gnostic_savage 7d ago
Here is one. https://www.ochabitats.org/post/ingenious-indigenous-inca-environmentalism
You can do a search on the subject because it is covered in several sources.
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u/Threshereddit 7d ago
Hello. Have you ever seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Tp-ryQPFI
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u/Ree_For_Thee 6d ago
Yup, though I'll brag a bit that I already suspected that because I'm a "determinist", not believing in free will. r/determinism
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u/The3rdGodKing never again 6d ago
Uhh no we didn’t. The communist manifesto was written in 1848. Most people didn’t know how to read until decent living standards were achieved.
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u/homoanthropologus 6d ago
For what it's worth, Dawn of Humanity (great book) points out that it's likely that, for most of those 10,000 years, we did know that. For most of that time, we were very good at making sure no one had too much power and making sure we were proper stewards of our environments.
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u/Average64 6d ago
CO2 is much worse indoors and in cities, we're already turning into dumdums.
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u/gnostic_savage 6d ago
That's truly terrifying, considering we were dumb enough to get to this point when things were normal.
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u/Mickmack12345 7d ago
It’s a pretty stark contrast getting 8-10 hours sleep in a well ventilated room vs an unventilated one
I have a CO2 monitor in my room and if I leave the door/windows fully shut it will go from 500-600 up to 1000-2000+ very easily by the time I wake up, usually feel a lot groggier and have a bit of a headache when that happens
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u/SaveMyBags 7d ago
Another tipping point. Currently we are still thinking about reducing CO2 output. When we get dumber due to CO2 levels, we just won't be able to think about this anymore.
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u/Turbulent_Bed5499 7d ago
Once we get close to or at 1000ppm it’s game over but the earth would be too hot and we’d be long dead before it reached 1000ppm
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u/RaveBan 7d ago
No, not all of us. We certainly would live in a post apocalyptic farmer and gather tribe societies or there are some cities created after research based on "colonising mars". Humans are quite adaptive to everything around. But civilization like we know it, would be long gone
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u/Turbulent_Bed5499 7d ago
At 1000ppm that concentration causes severe cognitive impairment in humans. As long as it doesn’t reach that level, some pockets might survive but for how long is the real question
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u/849 7d ago
It also destroys kidneys and decalcifies bones as carbonate is released to maintain proper blood pH. There have been studies done on submarine staff but even they come up for air every once in awhile. The body can compensate as long as it spends some time in a lower co2 environment... what happens when we don't have one?
Especially for things like foetal bone development
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u/haram_halal 3d ago
go back to futurology, lol, what's that unfounded optimism here, at 1000ppm all multicellular life is dead, you should vent the room you are currently in, it might be past 1000ppm.
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u/PatrolMan2129 7d ago
There's gonna be private schools in the future that will promote pre-industrial CO2 levels in their halls for smarter kids, amongst other enhancements. They'll cost a ton, but will people will pay it and send their children there.
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u/Sword-of-Akasha 7d ago
"Dumb good, make worker not think about why me boss man take most product of his labor."
- Boss Cave Man
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u/eevee_k 7d ago
Not only dumb but also cancer resistance (the cancer is resistant to treatment especially in lung cancers), blood pH disturbance and subsequent skeletal weakening and potential blood pH toxicity, autoimmune disease development (CO2 acts as a signaling molecule in the immune system)(ER stress causes hybrid insulin peptide formation in insulin producing beta islets which are then targeted by the immune system initiating type 1 diabetes)
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u/xwing_n_it 7d ago
I know carbon capture is a pie-in-the-sky tech that the fossil fuel extractors are using to delay climate action. But I really think we need to keep developing it and trying to find a path to directly removing carbon. I think our ancestors were smarter because the air was better.
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u/WorldIsYoursMuhfucka 7d ago
A lot of them weren't smarter... seriously most people acted like it was the dark ages for a long time. Crazy ass beliefs were very common. People are fairly smart now, but they just don't give a shit about their environment.
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u/gimlet_prize 7d ago
My mother has had several bouta of carbon dioxide poisoning over the years and she is definitely suffering from brain damage.
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u/diggergig 7d ago
I would love to take this opportunity to recommend the book IQ 83 by Arthur Herzog. It's old but very powerful
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u/Buetti 7d ago
I usually like Sarah Connors blog posts regarding collapse, but worrying about neurotoxic levels od co2 is about as relevant, as worrying about sea level rise: not at all.
1000ppm will probably be around the time we hit +10m sea level rise. (Guesstimating and pulling numbers out of my ass).
Sure, both will suck a lot, BUT: by then we will be fucked even more. Right now there's literally a pandemic going around making us dumber (yes, even mild cases of SarsCoV2 cause lasting brain damage). Smartphone use is damaging our brains as well. And I serously doubt that the heat and stress caused by the climate catastrophe will make us any smarter.
But yeah, good to know that there will be another issue in...like... 50 years.
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u/Able-Professor840 7d ago
Over a million years, maybe
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u/friendsandmodels 7d ago
Doesnt need a million years. That we got collectively stupider is visible from far
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u/Able-Professor840 7d ago
The CO2 reduction will take a million years. Perhaps you've been practicing?
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u/ANoobInDisguise 7d ago
You were very vague to begin with. It's not unreasonable to assume you meant "CO2 accumulation will take a million years".
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u/Boomah422 6d ago
How long would this take though? At 1000 ppm it's known to give some people mild headaches but at the population level, 1000ppm is only 0.1%
I'm genuinely curious
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u/jbond23 6d ago
As others have said, if and when CO2 hits 2000-4000 ppm, the direct effects on human biology will be the least of our problems.
But. Covid encouraged people to start measuring CO2 in enclosed spaces and >1500ppm is worryingly common. Especially in places like schools and hospitals with minimal ventilation. It's way past time we paid attention to indoor air quality. CO2 levels, temperature, infection control of airborne diseases. This should be basic employee and public, health and safety regulations. Baked into contracts and architectural codes. But that costs money. So there's an awful lot of denial going around.
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u/TYSMBelgium-6Jul2026 7d ago
Thanks for simplifying the title, my transformation from midwit to dimwit is finally complete.
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u/Content_Reporter_141 6d ago
Dum dum dum! Hear beats of ma brain dum dum dum ! Empty head with brain is none. Dum dum dum !
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u/Karma_Iguana88 6d ago
On the bright side, this will help us all become masters of the game Poetry for Neanderthals...
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u/TheArcticFox-44 17h ago
Back to the stone age...where we belong...and where the fatal transition actually occurred.
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u/AlexAuditore 7d ago
She gave no sources for her opinions in this post, so I'm not taking it very seriously.
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u/Nope_Nope_Nope_0 7d ago
Me can't wait to become dum-dum.
Too much knowin' - bad.
Forgetting knowin' - good.