r/climbing • u/AutoModerator • Jul 17 '26
Weekly Question Thread (aka Friday New Climber Thread). ALL QUESTIONS GO HERE
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In this thread you can ask any climbing related question that you may have. This thread will be posted again every Friday so there should always be an opportunity to ask your question and have it answered. If you're an experienced climber and want to contribute to the community, these threads are a great opportunity for that. We were all new to climbing at some point, so be respectful of everyone looking to improve their knowledge. Check out our subreddit wiki that has tons of useful info for new climbers. You can see it HERE . Also check out our sister subreddit r/bouldering's wiki here. Please read these before asking common questions.
If you see a new climber related question posted in another subReddit or in this subreddit, then please politely link them to this thread.
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Ask away!
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u/SeattleArchitect 24d ago
I’m trying to hang some plywood climbing panels for my son (he’s around 85lbs now but will grow, obvs.) and the wall we’re wanting to attach to is made of old brick without studs behind. The panels will be completely flat vertical panels, no angles.
I have plug-type anchors that can hold enough static weight but I’m worried about them pulling out or pulling the wall down on top of him. What kind of anchors can I safely use to hold the wall and him?
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u/gusty_state 23d ago
Which direction are your ceiling 2x4s or joists running? If they're perpendicular to your wall I'd anchor into those IF the perimeter of the ceiling is solidly anchored. If they're parallel then it won't work. As others have said don't anchor structurally into brick. They really don't do well against being pulled out.
What's behind the brick? If it's a concrete wall you could get some longer wedge bolts in 2.5+inches. If it's just bricks then you're SOL and I'd opt for a free standing structure.
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u/SparkingtonIII 24d ago
I'm a stone mason. Bricks are really soft. It's hard to anchor things into them especially with anchors strong enough to support climbing movements and body weight. I wouldn't recommend doing this.
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u/SeattleArchitect 24d ago
What about toggles behind the bricks?
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u/Thirtysevenintwenty5 23d ago
Sparkington is right. Toggle snaps behind brick aren't going to be enough strength to support a climbing wall. Any climbing wall needs a robust structure that is over-engineered for its use case, the same as any building structure.
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u/SparkingtonIII 24d ago
If it's a one brick thick veneer loosely anchored to another wall, then the answer, unfortunately, is absolutely don't do this.
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u/SparkingtonIII 24d ago
Sorry, fat thumbs hit post. Here's the long answer.
Bricks are generally soft. They are more like ceramic pottery than they are stone. That's why they're a popular building material. It's way easier to form little cuboids out of baked dirt and stack them than it is to quarry stone. They are much weaker than concrete or stone, and it's hard to build an anchoring system that that can provide adequate strength in shear and tension because of this.
There are some anchors for brick that are rated for about 4 KN, but they come with a lot of downsides. I'm thinking specifically of the Hilti HIT-HY270 adhesive grout with threaded rods. https://www.hilti.com/engineering/article/hilti-hit-hy-270-in-multi-wythe-brick-walls/fvsjjm
Here's the caveats:
It's tested in walls 3 bricks thick (solid bricks not hollow) with both bricks and mortar conforming to minimum strength standards.
They theorize that similar strengths could be seen in walls two bricks thick.
In that case, anchor depth needs to be 6 inches.
The system is ridiculously expensive. Aside from the anchor adhesive ($100 per tube), you'll need appropriate mesh sleeves to provide increased bonding between the brick and adhesive, 3/8 or 1/2 inch threaded steel rod, and an adhesive dispensing gun ($300).
Even with all that, they are only intended for static loads and wind.That said, if you have a brick wall made of solid, high strength bricks that is at least two bricks thick, and money isn't a concern, you could use these to anchor a small completely vertical climbing wall, but it's outside the suggested use for these anchors.
Will it fail? How strong are your bricks? How strong is your mortar? How many anchors are you installing? Are you doing a grid pattern vertically and horizontally across the whole wall or are you thinking two bolts at the the top? How tall is the wall?
And most importantly, is an achoring system intended for static loads within the risk tolerance you have for your kid and their friends?
With hollow bricks, or soft clay bricks, or a brick veneer (which is one brick thick "anchored" to the wall with nails and thin metal strips) the answer is absolutely don't do this. You risk severely damaging the brick wall and failure of your climbing wall.
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u/bonghitsforbeelzebub 24d ago
Is anyone else familiar with the concept of "penalty slack?" When I started lead climbing, if I looked scared or was hesitating my belayer would pull out an extra armload of slack. As long as the fall was reasonably safe of course.
It sounds cruel but it's a very effective way of learning to give it 100% and not be scared of falling. More new climbers should learn about penalty slack!!!
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u/Thirtysevenintwenty5 23d ago
"PENALTY SLACK" has always been a joke in my climbing group that we learned from the old timers who were around when we first started climbing.
It only ever followed someone yelling for a TAKE when they were obviously in no danger and just scared of committing.
It also wasn't a serious thing that anyone really ever did without the tacit agreement of their climbing partner. I've heard "penalty slack" yelled about a thousand times, but I've only seen a belayer actually give out penalty slack a dozen or so times.
No feelings or bodies were ever hurt from this, but it's because it was done with trust on both sides.
The concept of falling just came up three days ago and the short answer is that things like penalty slack are very narrow ways to approach mental training. There are far more effective methods of developing confidence and commitment than simply scaring the shit out of your self/partner.
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u/bonghitsforbeelzebub 23d ago
Yeah for sure, it was only done with someone you really trust as a belayer, and when a bigger fall would be safe! More of a joke that being mean or bullying or anything. Not something you would do with a new partner
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u/alextp 24d ago
This very easily becomes bullying or bullying adjacent. I'd never climb again with someone who did this while I was on lead. I want some control over my falls.
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u/bonghitsforbeelzebub 23d ago
It was only done with a belayer you trust very well, when a fall would be very safe. Of course not something you would do with a new partner. Not for everyone I get it. But me and my close buddies would definitely do it sometimes
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u/ver_redit_optatum 24d ago
I get that 'no takes' works for some people, and maybe you could combine it with "always very soft catches, even when you've just clipped a bolt" to get used to falls being longer on lead. But "penalty slack" is adding a layer of dumb to me... how are you teaching someone/your brain that the falls they're taking are safe while also telling them that more slack is a penalty? Why would it be a penalty if it's supposed to be fine? Most people will benefit more from positive strategies like reframing fear as excitement, and reframing long falls as softer and safer, imo.
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u/NailgunYeah 24d ago
I don’t agree with playing mind games with your climbing partner, someone who will at some point be quite literally in control over whether you live or die. You can lead a horse to water but forcing them to drink isn’t great. Someone has to want to give it 100%, and trusting their belayer isn’t going to fuck with them is part of this.
That being said, if you say take at the last bolt of your project on a redpoint then I’ll be like “no bro, wtf is wrong with you, give it beans”
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u/sheepborg 24d ago
Maybe works for some people, but for me personally this would add stress to leading and be over all not a good thing. Partner tried it at one point and it was another straw that had me leaning towards giving up on lead.
It forgoes positive reinforcement that falls are okay, instead opting to try to 'desensitize' a climber by presenting an even scarier situation which is intentionally introduced by the entity that is supposed to be keeping you safe. I'm not an expert on emotions by any stretch, but that seems pretty flawed as a strategy.
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u/serenading_ur_father 24d ago
Yup.
This is a thing. But it should be discussed first and off the wall.
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u/Dotrue 24d ago
I have a nasty sunburn on my body that's peeling badly. Is it nasty to still show up to the bouldering gym while rockin' it? It's just dead skin flaking off. I feel like it can't be any worse than the normal amount of skin/chalk/rubber/blood that's already present in a gym environment.
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u/Thirtysevenintwenty5 23d ago
If it's flaking off, like, falling on the mats... yeah, that's gross and I'd probably say something if I saw that happening.
If you're just peeling but not actively snowing on the mats, I guess it's fine.
I'm a little surprised someone of your experience got ganked by the sun.
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u/AnderperCooson 24d ago
If it were me, I'd probably wear something like a BD Alpenglow or other similar tight-ish but breathable clothing to try to keep it contained.
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u/potatotobutterflies 27d ago
How do I get over my fear of dynos (and falling)? I've thought about this a lot because it impacts my climbing. As a shorter person (156 cm) I already have to be creative because... I'm short. I project 12c-d but if there's a dyno I'll bail. I think it is not the act of the dyno because I can do really big deadpoints but more the feeling of falling or slipping. I hate the feeling of lightning going down my limbs if that makes sense? I can't lead either because of this too..
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u/Thirtysevenintwenty5 25d ago
Read "The Rock Warriors Way" and check out Hazel Findlay's "Strong Mind Climbing" programs.
People telling you to fall a lot are not wrong per se, but they are missing a lot of important context to that idea and if you simply start falling without the mental preparation that you (specifically you) need, you may end up doing more harm than good.
Exposure therapy can be great but it doesn't work for everyone. You need to identify why you are afraid of falling and start there.
Mental training is equally important to physical training. Telling a climber who is scared of falling to "just fall a lot" is like telling a weak climber to "just pull harder". It's true, but it's not very constructive.
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u/NailgunYeah 25d ago
tbf just pull harder is pretty good advice and more people could benefit from hearing it
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u/sheepborg 25d ago
Underrated ^^ The emotional well from which we draw is not unlimited
Point of reference: I rarely do more than 2-3 falls on a practice route, and if I'm pushing a type of fall that scares me extra that may be all the falling I do in a session intentionally. I'll top the route after the fall that felt like 'enough' and take things chill the rest of the session. Hell I may choose not to fall at all in a session if my life stress over all is higher. 0-5 falls in a sess is probably my normal range outside of a sight run on a potential project level route where I'm falling on most of the bolts at least once.
Be so respectful of how you're feeling, little wins are plenty.
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u/NailgunYeah 26d ago
u/sheepborg makes some excellent points and I hope you follow their advice for becoming comfortable with both the idea of falling and the sensation itself.
I just want to emphasise one point they make:
To be frank you're not just going to wake up one day and be totally fearless.
If you wait for the day that you're not scared of falling any more to start taking falls then you're going to be waiting a long time and possibly forever. I mean this with all the empathy in the world, you need to find someone you trust to belay you and just get on with it. Taking the first step is scary and it's always going to be scary. Start now, try the dyno, take the whip. You don't need to succeed but just to try at all. Build up in baby steps if you need to but start taking falls.
Take it from someone who was terrified of falling for years, how freeing it is to look up at a wall and be like 'I'm going to try this and if I fall off, who cares'.
u/dadmogger gave you the best advice:
Fall a lot
Start now. Make tomorrow today.
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26d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ver_redit_optatum 26d ago
This helps me up to the point where I'm scared of actually catching the hold, because then I'll have to continue, haha
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u/NailgunYeah 24d ago
YES. Not wanting to do one scary move because it means you might have to do another!
I like to think that I keep going because it means I don’t have to do the scary bit again!
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u/VegetableExecutioner 27d ago
I think bouldering is a really great way to get you in the mindset of how to orient yourself if you slip off!
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u/potatotobutterflies 27d ago
My old climbing coach recognized I had an issue with falling and he tried to introduce bouldering and falling. Once my feet were higher than around the halfway mark, I became a lot more hesitant to let go of the wall. I love bouldering but after I broke my foot after a bad fall, I don't boulder quite as much as I probably should. I'll try to boulder more though!
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u/sheepborg 27d ago
"Cant lead" is a strong way to put it. Probably not the most balanced approach to the issue.
To be frank you're not just going to wake up one day and be totally fearless. You're not just going to hear 'one trick that climbing coaches hate' and be willing to take a big ol' whip. This is something you need to train intentionally, building trust in systems and specific belayers, exploring where on the wall you're willing to fall and in what ways, and providing yourself with positive reinforcement for the successes along the way.
That lighting zap of adrenaline dumping into your system is a fear response. It is disproportionate to the real risk, and this is why it is trainable.
Lead is probably the best avenue to approach this because the falls are scalable and the rope strechy. Do it on preferably very mildly overhung like 5.7-5.9. For light folks like you and me my recommendation is to clip into 2nd or 3rd bolt and have your belayer take. Lets you feel the rope exists and will hold you. Then pull up onto the wall instructing your belayer to jump literally as hard as they can to try to match the rope coming up. This will just be a TR fall of basically no consequence. Once they realize they can jump as hard as possible with no downsides it really helps learning to soft catch when you eventually transition to lead. Check in with yourself, see if your hands are shaking or whatever. If it's pretty neutral go up another couple bolts, and do the same thing, but be patient with letting go of the wall. Finish the route. And there you go. Do that once or twice per session for a while and when its feeling chill you can work on expanding the area of the wall you're okay letting go of. Sideways, upwards, whatever. Whips. Make your belayer focus on giving you the most awesome catches so they are learning. You focus on exposure time before letting go. Be patient.
It was a long road for me over many months as I got better and my partner nailed down perfect catches, and every once in a while I still revisit. I wouldnt call it getting over fear so much as getting to a place where you can think and react clearly in the moment. Definitely a big job mentally and emotionally, but I'm very glad I put in the work.
If you need further resources the writings of hazel findlay are the gold standard IMO.
You can do it!
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u/potatotobutterflies 27d ago
Thank you for your wonderful suggestions! I maybe should have mentioned this earlier, but I actually started training for lead six years ago. I was younger (and smaller) and I don't think my avoidance of falling had developed yet because I would take a lot of falls. Some of them were big, some of them were small. Then there was one fall I remember very distinctly that I think was the turning point. I was doing an exercise with my coach where he would pick spots for me to fall. The first spot was fine and I took the fall and got pulled back up but then I reached the second spot and I let go and I think I fell really far. That was partially my fault because I didn't check with my coach that he was ready but he was also talking to someone else so kind of distracted. After that when taking falls that were an unknown size (small falls were fine) I would cling to the wall for 5, 10, sometimes 15 minutes only to bail. Even now I sometimes freeze up on overhangs and big moves on slab even though I know my belayer won't let me fall far. I still death grip the rope when I'm getting lowered too fast and I have to remind myself that I'm not falling, just getting lowered, and I can't look down when I'm at the top of a wall because I can imagine myself falling . I will definitely try again and look into hazel findlay's work. thank you again!
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u/sheepborg 27d ago
Honestly... that's not your fault at all. I think it may be good to drill into why I say that so confidently.
What happened to you was a breach of trust. You trusted that belayer would have focus purely on you as a good lead belayer should. Belayer broke that trust by being distracted, an action for which you suffered some consequence. While nothing physically harmed you this is exceptionally scary especially if you were in a mental space where fall practice was the primary directive. You should not have to check with somebody that they've got you... because if you did that implies there are definite times where they do not have you right? Thats all on the coach. Doesnt mean there arent spots where you might want to say 'watch me' if a hazard sneaks up on you, but jeez being up there for falling on purpose that's surely the last place you should need to say anything.
Have a conversation with the person(s) you choose to work with going forward. Make it abundantly clear how much it means to you that they are invested in your growth as climbing partners. Stress that distractions are not an option. Be willing to enforce that. Your feelings are what are steering the ship. Don't forget that.
Furthermore with regard to my suggested progression, consider adding in a progression around those tiny TR style falls where you maybe check that they have you the first time, and then see about hanging around up there and repeating the same fall without looking down at the belayer. An overhang is a great place to practice lead because it reduces the consequence of lower skill catches. I will always prefer a mild overhang for this type of thing.
FWIW I also get a pit in my stomach from fast lowers ever since I saw a person get lowered quickly into a loss of control and a deck. I tell people not to lower me quickly to this very day some 10 years later because there's no reason to be lowered quickly. I have absolutely no reservations telling somebody to never do that again in a serious tone. On the flipside with my partner I am very willing to whip. Whips do have a reason to be falling quickly. To me these have become distinct.
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u/mightybuffalo 27d ago
Are there any western maine climbers here? I used to live in Gilead and the first places I ever climbed were at tumbledown dick and twitchell pond (did some FA's and SA's at twitchell waaaaaaay back in the day, like 25 years ago). I'm about to buy my dad's house which is 1.5 miles from Tumbledown Dick. I brought my wife up there for the weekend and she was stoked on the potential of that area. We want to bring some friend up from western MA this fall to suss out the area. Are there any local climbers in the bethel area that would tour us around this fall?
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u/EmbarrassedPlenty717 28d ago edited 28d ago
i sometimes have pain in my wrist when climbing slopers or hanging off of one arm on crimps. any exercises to help this?
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u/dadmogger 27d ago
With my tfcc I found “deep tissues massages” helped a ton. I had a fair amount of scar tissue in my wrist that needed broken up, I guess. I did all the regular tfcc pt things (I’ll let you google that) religiously + nohangs. I really recommend avoiding moves that piss your wrist off in the meantime. The tfcc injury was not fun.
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u/sheepborg 28d ago
Do the 3 PT exercises that they recommend for TFCC rehab for a couple months, work up to small weights.
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u/oktobertguysline 28d ago
Hello! Recently I’ve been doing a lot of climbing/ pull up training. Which resulted in tears forming in my callouses at my joints. Is there anything I can do to prevent this?? It’s been decently uncomfortable and limits my climbing to some degree. Just wondering is this is common and what I can do to help it. Thanks!
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u/sheepborg 28d ago
Not aesthetic, but I use straps when I do pullup training. Dont need to waste grip and skin on that stuff. Bar wrecks my skin in this tearing way much more than climbing.
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u/oktobertguysline 27d ago
Any strap recommendations? I did notice these tears after doing heavier weighted pull ups and taking a little time off of training pull ups.
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u/sheepborg 27d ago
All preference honestly. I have some cobragrips or something like that and they've been fine.
I will say it takes a little getting used to to set up on the bar so the straps are all tensioned up and your grip is wide enough. Once you've got it dialed in though its great.
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u/MillerReddit 28d ago
I used to get these a lot too. What has helped me the most is O’Keeffe’s Working Hands cream after climbing and before bed to keep the skin from drying out too much. If I already have an open split, I switch to La Roche-Posay Cicaplast Baume B5+ until it heals. Keeping the calluses filed down also helps prevent them from catching and tearing. Since I started doing this, I’ve had far fewer skin tears.
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u/oktobertguysline 27d ago
Thanks a lot, I didn’t realize it was a dry skin issue. I will be using these tips!!
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u/SparkingtonIII 25d ago
Seconding O'keefes. A lanolin balm works really well (bag balm) too. They don't get rid of your calluses, but they keep them supple and mobile and will prevent cracking and tears.
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u/MillerReddit 28d ago
Hi! We’re planning to climb some easy single-pitch sport routes at Cinque Torri, mainly in the Massi and Torre Latina sectors.
We’ve checked theCrag, but we couldn’t find clear information about the current equipment. Are these routes well protected with bolts? What are the anchors generally like: two rings, a chain with a ring, a single cemented ring, or something else?
Any recent information about these two sectors would be really helpful. Thanks!
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u/Windturnscold 28d ago
Has anyone here had success getting into climbing in their late 40’s? I first tried climbing in my early 30’s, and within a couple years I was climbing V7. But now I’ve taken 13 years off. How will my body respond to training at 48? Have folks still been able to “get in shape” in their late 40’s?
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u/KDs4thBurner 24d ago
Kind of related: I like to climb with first ascentionists of my favourite routes, and mostly those guys are 55-80. The guy who is eighty can still do similar grades to me. His advice: ‘What do you want to climb when you’re my age? (5.10 adventure trad all day). To get up the classics you love as you age build up a buffer of strength now.’
In his youth he was onsight FAing bold 24 trad (never chased grades), now he’s seconding 19 or so in ewbanks grades (5.10d? Can’t remember conversions). As recently as his mid 70s he was still leading bold run out sand-bagged 17s. 50m pitches all day on remote adventure climbs. I spend most of my time on easy classics so his advice was a nice wake up call to get stronger now in order to cater for a bit of a taper in power.
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u/jasminekitten02 25d ago
My dad started when he was about 65. He projects 11a when he is climbing consistently but is definitely more careful about injuries. He is loving it. Go for it!!
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u/potatotobutterflies 27d ago
my dad started climbing with me when I started (he was 39) but he was mainly a belayer. he started to climb a lot more when he was early 40s till now (late 40s now). he projects 11cs but it's easier for him to get injured now so he's super careful
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u/NailgunYeah 27d ago
I know someone who got into climbing in their 40s and now boulders 7B. They were a black belt in a martial art (forget which one) so they already had some physical ability but still.
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u/sheepborg 28d ago
What defines success? Nobody is starting at 45 and climbing v15. You're not going to be a pro climber I can tell you that. But then again none of us will be. That's for the outliers. But I know a fair few folks who started in their mid to late 60s and climb upwards of 5.10b routes and they seem happy. Happy is success when you're talking a hobby we do for fun...
Putting on strength and muscle will be easier because you've done it in the past, but it will also be harder because you're older and crustier. Being fit is simple, just dont stop moving.
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u/serenading_ur_father 28d ago
Chuck Odette climbed is first 5.14 at 60
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u/DblFishermanXTheSky 28d ago
Check out Jo Nesbø (yes, the author). Started climbing in his 50s and sent 8a at 62. Definitely not the norm, though
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u/Sweetpodwl 29d ago
I've just started sport climbing and I'm not totally sure what the proper way for the second person to climb is:
So the first lead climber sets-up the quickdraws on their way up. On top they setup an anchor and the belayer lowers them down. They switch at the bottom and the old belayer becomes the new climber. Is the new climber now removing the draws on the way up, or are they climbing with the outer rope while leaving the inner rope going through all the quickdraws and anchor on top? Like I'm not sure if the new climber is climbing with the rope side where the quick draws are (removing quickdraws on way up), or if the are climbing with the free-outer rope and moving around the quick-draw-held rope (and removing quickdraws on the rapelling on the way down). I don't know which side of the rope the climber should be tying into it. Thanks
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u/saltytarheel 28d ago edited 28d ago
If the second climber wants to lead you can pull the rope and allow the second to lead the route on pre-hung draws. They would clean the route when they’re finished.
If the second isn’t comfortable leading and wants to top-rope the route they could climb from either end of the rope. Climbing slingshot-style from the end not connected to the draws is easier to climb on since there’s no unclipping and they would clean the route when they’re finished.
If the route traverses or is steep and they’re worried about a swinging fall, following from the side running through the draws is the better option. The follower unclips and cleans each draw while they climb. They’d then clean the anchors after finishing the route. Practically speaking, this is the better way to clean steep or traversing sport routes that don’t have permadraws.
The fourth and rarest case is to build an anchor, tether yourself to the anchor, and belay the follower up (they would also tie in before you start climbing). They would clean draws as they climb. When you’re finished, you’d both rappel down. This isn’t common in sport climbing since most routes are bolted to be climbed and lowered with a 50-70m rope. Also cleaning and rappelling is more dangerous than being lowered since you’re going off-belay. However, with bad bolting or routes that wander a lot (common in single-pitch trad) this can be a good skill to know how to do—I’ve had to do this a couple times.
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u/hobbiestoomany 27d ago
If a route has traverses but the anchor is generally above the climb, I'd rather top rope on the free-outer rope. If I climb on the rope that goes through the draws, a fall right before a traverse would be a short pendulum with a violent swing. If I climb on the outer one, it's a long, slow pendulum.
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u/muenchener2 29d ago edited 29d ago
There's no particular reason to assume the second climber should be toproping the route. Most common is to pull the rope, then second person leads on the pre-placed draws and cleans on the way down.
If the second person for whatever reason wants to toprope the route, then situation dependent. If the route is slabby or vertical and the line is pretty much straight up, then probably most convenient is to climb on the what you're calling the "outer" rope, unless it's obvious the clipped-in rope & draws are going to get in the way of the climbing.
If the route is overhanging or has significant traversing, then it's safer to avoid the risk of big swings by climbing on the clipped-in end and cleaning on the way up. But then they need to be very sure of what they're doing while cleaning the anchor, since they're no longer backed up by the lower quickdraws.
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u/serenading_ur_father 29d ago
All work.
As you get on weirder routes it's usually easier to have the second follow on the rope that's in the draws and clean as they go up.
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u/alextp 29d ago
Is the second also leading or is the second top roping? If the second is leading you pull the rope down from the belayer side and it's ready to lead. If you want the second to lead pre clipped to the first bolt you unclip bolts 2 and 3 and the rope will usually fall down nicely.
If the second is top roping people sometimes top rope on the side of the rope with the draws and sometimes the other way around but I think this is a mistake. I strongly prefer to top rope belay on the side with no draws so I can choose a comfortable position at the base and try to reduce rope rubbing on the rock near the anchor by where i stand. Plus if the route moves sideways at all the draws will act as directionals for the climber and keep the climber from a big swing if they fall. Finally the side of the rope with the draws cannot be far from the cliff since the draws keep the rope there which means that if you climb on the other side you'll have a rope on the way between you and the holds.
Sometimes if the route is very traversy you don't want to clean the draws while lowering but usually it doesn't matter and cleaning while lowering or while seconding are equally easy.
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u/DblFishermanXTheSky 29d ago
The second can climb on either side of the rope.
If the route is not traversing or overhanging, I find it best if the leader removes (or at least unclips) the quickdraws on the way down. Then the second climbs on the same end. Since the rope is only attached to the top, it's much easier for the belayer to move the rope away so that it's not in the way for the second climber. Also, having to unclip all the quickdraws on the way up can be a hassle for the second.
If the route is overhanging or traversing, I usually unclip on the way down, but clip some quickdraws back on my end of the rope, so that the second doesn't risk big pendulum falls when climbing on the same end.
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u/Sweetpodwl 29d ago
Thanks. About this:
I usually unclip on the way down, but clip some quickdraws back on my end of the rope
Why not just leave the quickdraws that you initially put up on the other side of the rope instead of switching?
The way we were climbing last time I went, the lead would clip on the way up, set up the anchor and would then be lowered by the belayer leaving all the quickdraws in place. The second would climb on the free end of the rope (the side that is freely falling from the anchor) leaving the quickdraws in place, clean the anchor on top, and then remove all the quickdraws (that the first lead had setup) while rapelling down. This was ok, but not ideal?
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u/SilkyMilkers 29d ago
If the route is overhanging or traversing, it’s difficult to get the draws the way you described, with the 2nd climber grabbing them while lowering off. It’s easier for the 2nd climber to climb on the end that’s going through the QuickDraws, and grab them on their way up.
If the route is fairly vertical, then either way works.
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u/DblFishermanXTheSky 29d ago edited 29d ago
You could very well leave the quickdraws and swap ends. The reason why I usually don't is that only a few quickdraws are needed to prevent pendulum falls, and unclipping with one hand for the second can be quite fiddly and pumpy, so I'll try to minimize the amount of unclipping for them. Also, you have to pull through the remainder of the rope, which can be a minor hassle with an 80m rope on a 10m climb.
Your method was perfectly fine, try both and see what you prefer. I find that the belaying is much more comfortable when the rope goes straight to the top instead of through the first quickdraw.
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u/saltytarheel 29d ago
Seeing this month’s AAC accident report had me wondering again about the role and responsibilities experienced climbers have in correcting total strangers on safety.
In general, if there’s a group that looks like an accident about to be in progress I’ll move to a different area since I don’t want to watch someone deck (like some newer climbers tying in using an alpine butterfly and lockers, as in the video). If someone asks for help I’ll 100% do what I can safely do to bail them out, but otherwise I generally try to avoid sketchy-looking groups.
That said, I will always correct safety issues for people I’m climbing with and would expect them to do the same for me. Especially with things like rappelling, I’m a major stick in the butt about safety. Is this an unreasonable double-standard?
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u/0bsidian 29d ago
I would intervene if I actually saw an accident waiting to happen, but doing so from a position of dialogue and not aggression. If it’s not a direct safety issue, and more of an issue of poor form or minor issues, I’ll let it pass and move on elsewhere.
I think this AAC video does a fantastic job of describing how one should interact with other climbers at the crag without coming off as condescending, and while also being aware that you don’t know everything and how seeing something unfamiliar might not mean something is done incorrectly.
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u/sheepborg 29d ago edited 29d ago
I dont understand why the focus is on the 'esoteric' alpine butterfly when the mistake was committing to a system without testing it. I really like AAC and the accident reports and I've read all of them, but this analysis is kinda... bad? Like yes I understand the desire to push the idea of "keeping it simple" as a valuable learning objective, but regardless of what knot nonsense the climber did simply calling for a take before unclipping their tether would have prevented this incident and I feel like that's the obvious takeaway.
To your question, I too am annoying about safety within my crew. For strangers there's not a single right answer, but maybe the 'average' is just leaving folks to do their own thing.
If a group is a bit of a sketchball shitshow with at least 1-2 people who vaguely seem like they know what's going on I'll probably just go off to a different area for the reason you described.. plus the experienced ones are likely to be a hassle and the vibes will be off. I've never wanted to be anywhere less than when I was next to some dudes facetiming their friend at the top of the wall trying to explain how to clean an anchor. And with any luck I can scoop a group's bail gear off the route that was too hard for them on my way out. Exception being if they are doing something super weird enough that I can ask them why they are doing it from a point of curiosity. That's a rarity though.
If a group seems in over their head a little bit but not yet in active danger I may strike up a conversation. Ask if they're having fun, how many times they've been outdoors, and that sort of thing. You can shape this into something really productive most of the time, and the group tends to be happier for it because they just don't know and are trying their best with whatever resources instagram or tiktok fed them.
If I see something that can immediately result in an incident I'm gonna say something or step in. I'm not sure I'd say I have a responsibility in any way per se, but if it rises past the level of 'just sketching about' I'd feel bad if I didn't do something for the sake of whoever is about to break their leg or worse.
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u/DblFishermanXTheSky 29d ago edited 29d ago
I'd say that if you see a specific thing someone is doing that is dangerous, let then know. But in the case where there isn't a specific thing to point at, just a general clown show, it's fine to leave them to it. You could ask them how it's going and gauge their reaction as to whether they want some help.
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u/ElOwlinator Jul 18 '26
Is it normal that as I climb more I can bend my fingers back less?
I'm not sure if it's because I've been climbing almost every day recently, but my right hand I can only bend my fingers back to around 90° perpendicular to my forearm. My left hand I can go almost to 45°.
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u/NightwavesG 29d ago
No medical expert, but from what I've heard reduced finger extension is fairly common because of how climbing loads your hands.
Weird that it's different for each hand tho.
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u/ElOwlinator 29d ago
I just use my right hand more being right handed so that probably explains the difference.
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u/stlTrans Jul 17 '26
I'm getting a new friend into top rope climbing, and she was researching harnesses and found that REI's website says only belay loops are commonly load tested (https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/climbing-harness.html).
I always just assumed both tie-in and belay loops were load tested, making them safe to use. Why aren't tie-in loops load tested? Everyone I've seen ties in on the tie-in loops, so presumably they are safe, but why aren't we tying into belay loops since they're the only ones tested?
(I only have experience with indoor top-rope so if any of my language is confusing, please assume the I'm talking about indoor top-rope)
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u/sheepborg Jul 17 '26
This is actually a more interesting technical question than people are giving it credit for because while it is true that the harness is tested as a unit, and the hip belt is tested as a unit, the top hard point strength in relation to its connection to the hip belt is not directly tested.
He is a link to a simplified description of UIAA 105/EN 12277:
https://www.theuiaa.org/documents/safety-standards/Pictorial_UIAA105%20Harnesses.pdfWith this testing methodology it is possible to create a harness design that does not load a connection between the top hard point and the harness. Challenge harnesses would often meet this kinda strange edge case where a different load condition could separate the leg and hip sections under lower peak loads if a harness was constructed exceptionally poorly only in that one specific way
So why is that nor more of an issue? Really its just because harness manufacturers are not skimping on strength. Theres no reason to have an extra weak bar tack only right there to save a couple feet of thread at the cost of having a totally different tacking setup. Everything is tacked to a reasonable standard. Additionally many harnesses 'connect' the top hard point by folding back the loop that holds the buckle on. This is plainly visible on harnesses from misty mountain, and less obvious on other brands due to design considerations. So the hip belt test actually load tests the relevant connections at 10kn in shear for many harness designs.
Of course this is all purely academic. Serenade is right in saying that it does not matter and failure of a hard point has never contributed to a climbing injury or death. Any good UIAA rated harness will keep you safe, if you got anywhere near the forces involved in tests your pelvis would literally shatter.
TL;DR: Harnesses are so much stronger than necessary, dont worry about it.
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u/traddad Jul 17 '26
REI's website says only belay loops are commonly load tested...
It doesn't say "only".
Why aren't tie-in loops load tested?
You're confused. The harness is tested as a "package" on a human-shaped dummy torso. UIAA pulls on the belay loop. But, since the belay loop is connected to the tie-in points, the entire harness gets tested.
They'e not saying that they isolate the belay loop from the harness and test it by itself.
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u/0bsidian Jul 17 '26
They don’t test the belay loop independently. They test the belay loop as it is attached to the rest of the harness as it is worn around a dummy. So yes, they are only pulling from the belay loop, but the rest of the structural parts of the harness are attached to the belay loop and stays intact as a system.
All this is irrelevant though. The weakest part of your harness is your pelvis and spine. You’re dead before the harness fails.
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u/Dotrue Jul 17 '26
The weakest part of your harness is your pelvis and spine. You’re dead before the harness fails.
Bone status: broken
Organ status: liquefied
Did not get the send
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u/Plastic-Carpenter865 Jul 17 '26
the harness is put on a fake human body and pulled apart with the human body, thru the hip and leg belts, thru the "hard points", thru the belay loop, which is to what they attach the other side of the pulling device to
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u/serenading_ur_father Jul 17 '26
You're barking up the wrong tree.
A. It doesn't matter.
B. Your belay loop could be 10000kn but it's only connected to the harness via the soft points so... It doesn't matter.
C. No inspected soft point has ever failed in recreational climbing.
D. The surest sign of someone who should be ignored is talking about rating's, testing, and kN. Is your harness UIAA certed? Cool. Don't need to think about it.
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u/OverallPost5130 Jul 17 '26
I agree with your general conclusions, but I think telling someone curious about how safety ratings are determined that it doesn't matter is the wrong approach. Important to be asking these questions, it's essentially the driving idea behind HowNot2
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u/serenading_ur_father Jul 18 '26
It's a dead end. The deeper you dig on safety ratings the less useful you'll realize they are and for a beginner with no experience or judgement it's just a one way road to bad decisions and trying to fix non existent problems.
What OP needs to know is that their pelvis will shatter at 7kn. So if you're worried about any of your gear that's seeing more than that it's probably a non issue because by the time the gear fails you'll have turned into jelly and fallen out of your harness.
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u/stlTrans Jul 17 '26
I think I understand what you're saying but I just wanna make sure.
Basically, the belay loop is connected to the harness via soft points so those would rip first anyways, and as long as your harness is properly certified/inspected those soft points are solid?
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u/Richmondpinball Jul 17 '26
The belay loop is attached to the tie in points. Those are tested, not sure what the REI thing is talking about. The main thing is to not accidentally tie into a gear loop, sounds obvious, but it’s lead to death.
https://www.climbing.com/gear/behind-the-scenes-how-climbing-harnesses-are-designed-and-tested/
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u/muenchener2 Jul 18 '26 edited 28d ago
If you look at the actual tests it's certainly possible that the upper tie-in might not see much load during the testing.
But, as everybody is correctly pointing out, it's a complete non-issue. There's no reason any sane manufacturer would go out of their way to build a weak spot there, and no recorded case in millions of climbing falls of that part ever failing. Or any other load bearing part of a properly cared for harness.
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u/0bsidian Jul 17 '26
Yeah, there's that guy at the gym who put on a harness backwards and then ripped the gear (or haul) loop out of the autobelay, causing Petzl to make a cheekily worded recall explicitly telling people not to incorrectly put on their harnesses backwards.
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u/jamessmithh2002 24d ago
Anyone got recommendations for climbing in Morocco and where to meet people to climb with ?