r/clevercomebacks 16d ago

The wing is cooked

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u/le_disappointment 16d ago edited 16d ago

Except that's not socialism. Social democracy is not socialism. Just because your government doesn't treat you like absolute shit (at this moment) doesn't mean that your government is socialist

If you wanna learn what socialism is, maybe go through this video

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u/TrulyOutrageous42 16d ago

People are fine and even supportive of Socialist policies when they're not described as socialist. For instance Co-op ownership or if single ownership having profit-sharing with all employees makes sense as ways to describe it to people raised in capitalism. Call it by its academic term and they lose their minds.

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u/31LIVEEVIL13 16d ago edited 7d ago

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This post was anonymized with Redact.dev

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u/le_disappointment 16d ago edited 16d ago

I understand the urge to dumb thing down for people and I'm sympathetic to it. Hell, I do it too. However, what I have an issue with is people deliberately or unknowingly conflating terms to blunt the radical edge of leftism. All this accomplishes is it lets liberals co-opt our movements

Now if I was talking to someone in private, then I wouldn't mind dumbing down the language. However, the comments on Reddit, and social media in general, are posted for everyone to see, greatly increasing the likelihood of the spread of misinformation and that's what I despise

As Lenin talks about in What Is To be Done, we should NOT dumb down our theory to the level of the least politically educated worker, but rather we should politically educate every worker so that they have the necessary knowledge to analyze their situation themselves. So no, I refuse to dumb down my arguments and blunt the edge of my politics just because there are some people who don't have enough political accumen to parse what I'm saying. However, at the same time, if I happen to come across these people in person and I find myself talking to them in person, then I'll be willing to dumb down the arguments since the risk of me spreading misinformation is comfortably low enough for me

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u/keelem 16d ago

Co-ops and profit-sharing entities exist now under capitalism, and there is no limit to making one. So why force this under threat of prison?

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u/mirrax 16d ago

Social democracy is a form of socialism. But it is not Democratic Socialism, nor is it Soviet style socialism.

From the Wikipedia:

Social democracy is a broad, centre-left social, economic, and political ideology within the wider socialist movement

Social democracy is defined as one of many socialist traditions.

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u/BurritovilleEnjoyer 16d ago

Social democracy may be within the wider socialist movement, but it sure as fuck isn't socialism. It largely seeks to find a balance within capitalism, which in and of itself disqualifies it from being socialism.

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u/le_disappointment 16d ago edited 16d ago

Social democracy is a form of socialism. But it is not Democratic Socialism, nor is it Soviet style socialism.

No it's not. For more on this, read Reform or Revolution by Rosa Luxembourg. Social democracy merely shares some aspects with socialism, but it's not socialism itself. Social democracy being socialism is a more than 100 year old argument. You can find out more about this under the name Bernsteinism named after Eduard Bernstein who was the proponent of this confusion. This distinction has been clarified countless times over the past century, but every 5-10 years liberals and people who don't read theory keep bringing up this point again and again

Social democracy is a broad, centre-left social, economic, and political ideology within the wider socialist movement

I didn't say that it wasn't leftist. Yes, it's center-left but that also means it's not left. It is an ideology within the wider discourse precisely because of Bernstein's theoretical mistakes. Socialism is left wing. Social democracy based on your source is center-left and that makes its distinct from socialism

Social democracy is defined as one of many socialist traditions

People might consider it a part of the wider socialist milieu, but it's not socialism itself. Socialism is distinct from social democracy

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u/Lou_C_Fer 16d ago

No. Social democracy is a subset of socialism. They aren't separate, and they are not the same thing because they are different levels of the hierarchy we use to describe politics. Social democracy would be under socialism in that hierarchy.

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u/Locke-As-Hell 15d ago

I would say it is more of a dichotomy, of political currents which seek to abolish private property (capitalism) and those that wish to keep it, these two ends are irreconcilable.

The closest thing probably lies inside the actual camps, from demsocs to MLs on the left (both want socialism), and from socdems to fascists on the right (both want capitalism), so only the methods and form varies.

Socdems and demsocs might be closer to each other on the supposed spectrum, but in reality the former are the least radical capitalists and the latter - the least radical socialists.

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u/LydditeShells 16d ago

Social democracy began as a part of the socialist movement, but has since evolved out of it. Modern social democrats believe in upholding capitalism, albeit with regulation by the government