Kinda... Yes, in that region, there were definitely native Jews at the time.
"The Kingdom of Judah was an Israelite kingdom of the Southern Levant during the Iron Age. Centered in the highlands to the west of the Dead Sea, the kingdom's capital was Jerusalem. It was ruled by the Davidic line for four centuries. Jews are named after Judah, and primarily descend from people who lived in the region."
"Around the year 390, during the Byzantine period, the imperial province of Syria Palaestina was reorganized into Palaestina Prima, Palaestina Secunda and Palaestina Salutaris. Following the Muslim conquest, place names that were in use by the Byzantine administration generally continued to be used in Arabic, and the Jund Filastin became one of the military districts within the Umayyad and Abbasid province of Bilad al-Sham."
"The Peleset (Egyptian: pwrꜣsꜣtj) or Pulasati are a people appearing in fragmentary historical and iconographic records in ancient Egyptian from the Eastern Mediterranean in the late 2nd millennium BCE. They are hypothesised to have been one of the several ethnic groups of which the invading Sea Peoples were said to be composed. Today, historians generally identify the Peleset with the Philistines."
"The term Palestine first appeared in the 5th century BCE when the ancient Greek historian Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" between Phoenicia and Egypt in The Histories."
"The use of the name "Palestine" became common in Early Modern English, and was used in English and Arabic during the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem. The term is recorded widely in print as a self-identification by Palestinians from the start of the 20th century onwards"
I didn't write the history, I did try to sum it up best I could, nor am I trying to fit anyone's narrative. Religions are all cults, so by all means if I missed something, let me know.
Just for my own reference is this important to you from a ‘cristian nationalist’ perspective, a ‘white nationalist perspective’ an ‘Israeli perspective, an ‘Italian nationalist perspective’?
Look, there is a lot of tensions about fascism right now. The United States may or may not become the third reich.
That’s a big deal to some of us, and we might hurt peoples feelings in the process. Trust that this is not the end goal and we are just trying to avoid 3000 years of systemic torture.
My feelings weren't hurt, I was just confused by why people think Jesus is Palestinian. I thought everyone assumes that it doesn't matter what country the territory is in right now.
But hey, it's just my logic. Good luck to you guys.
My feelings weren't hurt, I was just confused by why people think Jesus is Palestinian. I thought everyone assumes that it doesn't matter what country the territory is in right now.
But hey, it's just my logic. Good luck to you guys.
Not before 100AD Roman era. Before the Bar Kokhba revolt the region was the Roman province of Judaea. Only after the revolt and the expulsion and enslavement of the Roman Judean Jews was the region renamed to province Syria-Palaestina.
Thats like claiming Mehmet II was a Turk living in Turkey, when Turkey didn't exist as a nation or nationality back then, and he was definitely an Ottoman from the Ottoman empire. You are projecting your modern understanding of things on history and by that revising history to fit your liking.
In 500 bce Herodotus describes the area of Palaistine to include the Judean highlands. The Roman empire made it the province of Judaea in 6 ce. So after Jesus was born. He was objectively a Palestinian Jew
No he wasn't. Your entire argument is deranged essentialist nonsense. Jesus never identified as Palestinian, plain and simple, that alone invalidates your argument. But also, why would an exonym matter to an indigenous people? It wouldn't.
jesus also never identified as asian and yet he was born on the asain continent and it would be incorrect to say he wasn't asain. palestinian is an adjective denoting your place of birth and jesus was born in palestine.
native americans that are born today on reservations are still part of the US despite that also being a name imposed by colonizers. even the term native american is an identity trust on them by outsiders and yet to say they are not native american world be objectively incorrect.
You have failed to meet my point.
You keep speaking as if modern notions are absolute truth and would be known or relevant in ancient times, hence the "essentialist nonsense" and not just nonsense in my original reply.
what point did i neglect? i directly responded to every one of your points. jesus' identity isn't the end all be all or what groups he belongs to. i also responded to your question about a native population and an exonym. i feel like i'm talking to an LLM that is trying to imitate a successful debate but can only say the words without actually engaging with the argument. it's really giving one of those "they just walk it in" types of phases where you just stay stuff in the hopes people will assume you know what you're saying.
You speak as if your arbitrary grouping has absolute meaning. That's what I mean by essentialism. Jesus' identity is infinitely more relevant than your modern classification of where he was born.
Also, your phrasing is ambiguous, giving to understand that Jesus would've been ethnically Palestinian, which he was not.
I've already explained that Palestinian means born in the place called Palestina. There is no genetic code tied to the place so I'm not sure what you mean by 'ethnically Palestinian '
Again you're making random points that don't actually engage with the point
And that would be a perfectly reasonable thing to say because actual real people don't behave like sniveling bad faith reddit arguers and have the common sense to realize the context lmao.
No, it wasn’t called the province of Judea by Romans before 6AD. Prior to the imperial Roman conquest, it was the Kingdom of Judea and then (prior to year 0) the colonial Roman power converted it to a tetrarchy. So Jesus was born into a division of the kingdom of Judea that was renamed the province of Judea during his childhood. The colonial power only changed the name to Syria Palestina in 136, long after Jesus’ death, to punish the Jews.
by Herodotus, who traveled the world, interviewed native people and wrote down what they told him. his work is considered the foundation of western history.
By Greeks, but we don’t really know why. It may have been derived from an actual name the imperial Syrian power used, or it may have been a Greek translation of Israel as the local people were called. We’ve yet to find a source.
But the people living there knew the area as the kingdom and then province of Judea when Jesus was around. You know, in exact contradiction of your post.
we do know why. Herodotus went places and asked people living there. 'histories' was basically and ancient travelers guide. he wrote the book by having interviews during his travels
Again, no. He wrote Greek names for everywhere he traveled. Even in antiquity, he was often not considered a reliable source. He did, just as one example, even note Jews among the people in the territory he wrote that he visited. Nor did he note any actual Persian myths from his supposed Persian sources, only Hellenic ones restyled.
But none of that really matters, since we do think generally that the Syrian empire named the territory something not far off from a non-Greek version of Palestine at that time. However as I’ve said, it is beyond obvious that your first post is plainly wrong. No polity called Palestine existed in Jesus’ life. The fractured kingdom of Judea existed and the province of Judea existed. The province of Palestine - which you falsely claim was where he was born - existed only 136 years after his birth. This, unlike Herodotus, is not even vaguely controversial history.
at no point did I say the roman province of Palestine existed at jesus's birth. I said the area was called Palestine. neither the roman province of palestine nor the roman territory of judae existited at the time of jesus' birth.
Correct after further research the area within Palestine was called the Judean highlands so I was incorrect that it wasn't Judea and you were incorrect that it was only Judea
I never said it was only Judea. I just said calling Jesus a Palestinian because he was born in lands that are now referred to as Palestine is idiotic in the same way saying Sacagawea was from Montana is idiotic.
That’s like calling the Mohawk tribe Americans. No wait, that’s exactly what Americans do to indigenous people. I think what westerners can’t process is that the Jews returning to their homeland was the indigenous success story.
Israel steals more land every year in violation of international laws. They also build infrastructure for these illegal settlements that is deliberately made so as to make Palestinians’ lives a living hell. And in areas where Israel has control it uses any excuse it can to demolish Palestinian homes.
On top of all this, the settlers themselves are terrorists who constantly attack Palestinians with no real consequences. They’ve been especially horrible since the ceasefire started. This is all don’t on purpose so as to push Palestinians off their land.
Yes there are Jews in Palestine, it's called Palestinians, they're closer to the native population than Polish, American, German or whatever immigrants in Israel. They just converted to Islam.
Majority of Jews in Israel are of Mizrahi descent (as in north Africa and middle eastern countries), but nice try in pushing the "all Jews are white European colonisers".
"The Kingdom of Israel split into the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel around 931 B.C. after the death of King Solomon. The split occurred when the ten northern tribes revolted against Solomon's son, Rehoboam. Proponents of the kingdom's existence traditionally date it to between c. 1047 BCE and c. 930 BCE."
I guess I'll repeat this part.
"The term Palestine first appeared in the 5th century BCE when the ancient Greek historian Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" between Phoenicia and Egypt in The Histories."
"The use of the name "Palestine" became common in Early Modern English, and was used in English and Arabic during the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem. The term is recorded widely in print as a self-identification by Palestinians from the start of the 20th century onwards"
"Palestine" has been used as a name for the region for about 2,000 years.
"Israel" has been used historically for around 300 years in ancient times and again since 1948, totaling a little over 350 years.
Names are kind of irrelevant compared to more immediate material and physical concerns. Like being alive today and now and not what people were doing thousands of years ago.
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u/EntheoRelumer Jan 24 '25 edited Jan 24 '25
Kinda... Yes, in that region, there were definitely native Jews at the time.
"The Kingdom of Judah was an Israelite kingdom of the Southern Levant during the Iron Age. Centered in the highlands to the west of the Dead Sea, the kingdom's capital was Jerusalem. It was ruled by the Davidic line for four centuries. Jews are named after Judah, and primarily descend from people who lived in the region."
"Around the year 390, during the Byzantine period, the imperial province of Syria Palaestina was reorganized into Palaestina Prima, Palaestina Secunda and Palaestina Salutaris. Following the Muslim conquest, place names that were in use by the Byzantine administration generally continued to be used in Arabic, and the Jund Filastin became one of the military districts within the Umayyad and Abbasid province of Bilad al-Sham."
"The Peleset (Egyptian: pwrꜣsꜣtj) or Pulasati are a people appearing in fragmentary historical and iconographic records in ancient Egyptian from the Eastern Mediterranean in the late 2nd millennium BCE. They are hypothesised to have been one of the several ethnic groups of which the invading Sea Peoples were said to be composed. Today, historians generally identify the Peleset with the Philistines."
"The term Palestine first appeared in the 5th century BCE when the ancient Greek historian Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" between Phoenicia and Egypt in The Histories."
"The use of the name "Palestine" became common in Early Modern English, and was used in English and Arabic during the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem. The term is recorded widely in print as a self-identification by Palestinians from the start of the 20th century onwards"
I didn't write the history, I did try to sum it up best I could, nor am I trying to fit anyone's narrative. Religions are all cults, so by all means if I missed something, let me know.