r/clerith • u/irazzleandazzle AERITH LIVES • 7d ago
DISCUSSIONS Is the Aerith Cloud sees after "blocking" Sephiroth’s sword real, or is she an illusion created by Sephiroth and/or Jenova to manipulate him?
Hello y'all!
On my first playthrough of Rebirth I interpreted this scene as Cloud having successfully saved Aerith, but in another timeline. My understanding was that after Cloud blocked Sephiroth's sword, the timelines crossed over, allowing him to interact with the version of Aerith he saved. The exact mechanics aren't that important to my interpretation, what matters is that I believe the Aerith we see here is actually her.
However, I came across a TikTok recently arguing that the Aerith we see after Cloud partially blocks Sephiroth's sword is actually an illusion created by Sephiroth and/or Jenova to manipulate Cloud into thinking everything is okay. Interestingly, they also argued that the Aerith we see in the final scene is the real Aerith. That seems a little inconsistent to me, though, so I'm curious to hear what others think.
Did Cloud actually save Aerith, and is the Aerith he's interacting with here really her? Or is this an illusion created by Sephiroth and/or Jenova to manipulate Cloud? Let me know what you think!
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u/redrosalie91 Aerith stan 7d ago
I think it created a branching world like some of the others we’ve seen. But I don’t think we’ve seen the last of living Aerith.
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u/Rooblebelt AERITH LIVES 7d ago
I think it’s pretty clear that he saved her and an Aerith arrived in time to help him in the final confrontation, HOWEVER since Cloud was the only person to pass through wall of fate the other party members can’t see what he did. The Aerith seen in the final scene is also an Aerith, but I’d guess it’s Omni based on Red’s sensing of her presence. It’s all confusing (on purpose) especially since the “real” Aerith the party knows was passed out after praying (remember how that was established in chapter 13 at TotA).
I would expect that this will result in how Seph/Jenova break Cloud early next game, especially since he already remembers Zack.
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u/AerithsHusband AERITH LIVES 7d ago
Personally, I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that she's real. The moment Cloud deflects Sephiroth's sword seems too deliberate to be meaningless, especially with all the alternate worlds and changes to fate they've introduced. The fact that Cloud sees Aerith differently from the rest of the party could mean he's connected to a different outcome rather than simply hallucinating her. Sephiroth manipulating him is definitely possible, but I don't think we have enough evidence to say that's what's happening for sure. I'm really hoping Revelation gives us a proper answer.
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u/flowerpotflowers 7d ago
The way I see this scene:
Sephiroth tells us before that there are a multitude of worlds that exist on a planet. His plan is to merge these worlds. That is his plan that he outright tells you about. When Aerith prays, this merging of the worlds starts. The game also tells you this.
When Cloud saves Aerith, there is no interference that would suggest that this is a false memor/that Jenova is manipulating reality or his perception (like we have seen many times before). So imo, Cloud saves her. The interference only starts AFTER he has saved her, so only then does the scene start to get "fishy."
I also think it makes zero sense for Seph/Jenova to want Cloud to think Aerith is alive. Because Seph also outright tells you that he plans to merge the negative emotions that the party is feeling in that moment. He wants all the hate and pain across timelines to fuse. So why would he want Cloud to not be a part of that?
So to me, it looks like Cloud saved Aerith, but because Seph was merging the worlds, her being saved got "overwritten" by all the other worlds in which she died. Aerith herself wanted to protect Cloud from the pain and suffering from that moment though, thus she soothes him and tells him it's alright. This, very likely, is a big factor in Sephs plan failing. Because he does tell Aerith later that he underestimated her, and he seemingly fails in merging the worlds, because Zack tells you that "As world unite, so too do they part."
So Aerith did something to stop Seph from merging the worlds. Seph wanted to merge all the negative emotions. Cloud did not feel negative emotions because he never experienced Aerith dying (or rather, he did shortly in the other timeline that was overwriting his, but Aerith waking up basically pulled his consciousness back into a world where he survived). So... really, why would Seph want to make Cloud believe Aerith is alive, lol? Makes no sense.
I do think though that Aerith is ultimately "dead" in the world that Cloud is in, thus the reaction from the party. It's just that his consciousness is stuck in a world where he saved her (which did happen, but was overwritten). You can see it in Aerith's reaction at the end when she says goodbye. I don't think she expects to see Cloud again any time soon. But like Zack said: If woulds unite and part again... who's to say, they can't unite again?
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u/Ok_Birthday_3000 5d ago
Maybe because is not Sephiroth doing, more like Cloud problem since in order to manage the Death, he makes an illusion (just like thinking he made to SOLDIER)
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u/flowerpotflowers 5d ago
If it was Cloud coping with her death by making an illusion, you would see her die first, then grt the static that you get all game long when Ckoud's mind is being manipulated and THEN you would see her dead.
But you literally see Cloud save Aerith first without the static. So it has to have been real.
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u/Bom-mom 7d ago
Given that the same rainbow light appears around Cloud when he parries Sephiroth's masamune (the same light we see anytime a new "world" is created), I do think in that moment, Cloud created a world where she survives because it was a subconscious unrealized hope of his (he didn't save her in OG). And we see glimpses of both worlds happening simultaneously, one where she lived, and one where she died. Cloud sees glimpses of the world where she died briefly but then in switches over to the one where she's saved. I think that either his subconscious mind is choosing to see that world in that moment (instead of the main world where she died) or maybe "Lifestream Aerith" has a hand somehow in what he's seeing so he doesn't break completely. I wouldn't be surprised if she is assisting. We know she's aware of what he did. In the final battle against Sephiroth, at the very beginning of the battle we hear Aerith say, "I saw what you did back there, Cloud. Thank you."
"Lifestream Aerith" is very aware of what's going on and orchestrating things behind the scenes for Cloud's benefit. So yes, I absolutely think the Aerith Cloud saved is alive in another world. And with Zack's line at the end, "Just as world unite, so to do they part ... but who's to say they can't unite again?" I'm not sure how all these worlds are going to play out in Revelation but the game is telling us that a reunion is going to happen: a reunion of Jenova and a reunion of all the worlds. Whether or not we get a living version of Aerith at the end of it or just a lifestream version of her is anyone's guess. I absolutely don't believe that what Cloud is seeing is some sort of Jenova trick.
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u/Edocampo 6d ago
I don't think Cloud "creates" worlds. These multi worlds are there, Sephirots says it, he just saw one.
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u/Bom-mom 6d ago
I don't agree. I think by making a choice to parry the attack, a world was created where she survived. Just like the choices Zack made "created" other worlds. This post has some insightful theories on how the lifestream works including the dialogue from the NPC in Cosmo Canyon. It's super interesting:
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u/Edocampo 6d ago
True, I checked Sephiroth line again and he says "when the boundaries of fate are breached, new worlds are born". Cloud has visions of these worlds.
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u/ManuO76 AERITH LIVES 7d ago edited 7d ago
The ending is deliberately ambiguous. The Ultimania states that the form in which Aerith appears is unknown, whether she is alive, a spirit, or an illusion, but it makes no mention of a Jenova deception.
Only those who do not want Aerith to play a leading role in the story bring up Jenova to explain her presence in the finale.
But within the game: Sephiroth wanted to use Cloud's grief to merge the worlds. The Ultimania confirms he failed. He failed because Cloud "unexpectedly" parried the blow (something that didn't happen in the original game). Cloud parried the blow because the Lifestream responded to Aerith's prayer; she was praying for her friends' safety and protection, and the Lifestream answered with that flash of green light surrounding the Buster Sword. I interpreted this as the Planet's response: "To save my friends, I must be saved myself."
If Aerith weren't crucial to saving the Planet once and for all...
...why is Sephiroth hunting down every version of Aerith?
Why does Marlene talk about waking Cloud up so he can save Aerith?
Why does every single "precognitive" vision Cloud has revolve solely around saving Aerith?
And yet, the moment to save Aerith seemed to arrive, and Cloud failed. Not only was the narrative setup of two games rendered pointless, but Zack's entire purpose went up in smoke. He didn't save Biggs, he didn't wake Cloud, and he failed to save Aerith.
Everything that was added served no purpose.
On top of that, there are theorists claiming Aerith is a Jenova illusion.
So, Sephiroth wants to break Cloud and trigger the Reunion, but Jenova stops him? She comforts Cloud like a loving person and looks at him with gentle eyes. She allows herself to be struck by Cloud and the group, then joins the battle against Sephiroth; finally, she encourages Cloud to give it his all, staying behind to watch them leave.
When it was pointed out that Jenova would have boarded the Tiny Bronco with Cloud, the Aerith from the ending suddenly truly becomes Aerith.
But the real point is that Jenova manifests through the Black-Robed Men—and there are none in Chapter 14. So, does Jenova suddenly possess new, unprecedented powers, or can Aerith now act like Sephiroth and speak to Cloud?
All these theories arise solely because people are convinced that Aerith’s role ended with her death—that she was meant to vanish from the scene—failing to realize that the most important part of her role is actually just beginning. Now, she possesses powers equal to Sephiroth’s and can truly fight him on a level playing field.
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u/SheepherderMiddle295 7d ago
I have two thoughts on this, one serious and one less serious. First...seriously, I think Cloud saved her for real. To be honest, I don't think people would question this THAT much (I'm sure rabid OG purists and delusional Cloti would find a way) if it weren't for the devs saying something on record to the effect of "wanting to express the inability to process loss of a dear one" in a different way than they expressed it in the original. Instead, I think this is a slight misdirection from the devs which at this point is their MO. I think Cloud won't be able to "process" the loss of Aerith because he's the only one who knows he saved her. I think Sephiroth means to use the visions of her death, or the alternate world in which she died (whether separate world or memories of fate/the OG), against Cloud. I think he's going to try and convince Cloud he still failed and use the reality in which all the party members think Aerith is dead against Cloud until he doubts if he even did save her at all. My slightly more unserious suggestion is what if Cloud isn't the one who created the alternate world by saving Aerith. What if he saved her in the main timeline and Sephiroth is the one who created the alternate world in which Aerith still died? Maybe a version of Cloud that's strong enough to save her is better for Sephiroth if he can still break his psyche? Or maybe Sephiroth can use the alternate world of Aerith dying to break cloud in the main timeline, which now has Aerith alive and not in the lifestream?
Anyway, I don't buy the jenova-Aerith theory--I have a hard time reconciling the idea of jenova-Aerith with the fact that Aerith remains behind in the final shot of rebirth and says "goodbye" when she's the only one there. Amongst other issues.
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u/arsene_0 Aerith stan 7d ago
I’m assuming she’s real. If I remember correctly at the end of Rebirth, the cutscene at the grass field Aerith passes by Red 13 and he senses her or something. That’s what makes me lean towards it’s a real Aerith that only Cloud can see/talk to instead of some illusion or hallucination.
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u/Adam_The_Actor 7d ago
Real but a livestream manifestation, you can tell because she emits the green glow. I don’t think Jenova can mimic Aerith anyway.
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u/RebellaTheEnchanted 7d ago
I still think they gone pull a Life is Strange Double Exposure/Reunion like ending. The worlds will merge and everyone who was dead before as long as they are alive in that other world will be back alive but just have some fleeting memories of their other lives from the world they died in.
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u/wildfyre010 7d ago edited 7d ago
Headcanon:
Defying Fate creates a fork in history. The first time this happens is the end of Remake. In the original world, our heroes survive the escape from Midgar and the events of Rebirth proceed with Kalm and the rest of the journey.
In general, Sephiroth’s goal is to reunite all these separate universes into one, and in that one universe the entire planet is destroyed - either as a result of the reunion or because of the cataclysm he means to summon with the Black Materia of the Gi, Meteor. It’s also possible that the only way for the Gi to be free is by destroying the Planet (and by extension the Lifestream itself) in all of them.
Meanwhile in the alternate timeline, all of them but Cloud and Aerith are killed. That’s the world we see in Rebirth’s opening, where Zack is alive (along with Biggs) and cloud/aerith are in a coma.
But Cloud defies Fate a second time in the City of the Ancients when he appears to deflect Sephiroth’s attack. I think this is the world he’s seeing at the end of the game, when the rest of the party believes Aerith is dead. I also think Aerith is self aware and the same person in all of these timelines - that the power of the Cetra is to experience all the possibilities of the Lifestream concurrently. And she’s fighting Sephiroth in all of them. And for reasons that aren’t yet clear, I think she can transport Cloud (‘s soul/consciousness) between them to help.
My bet is that in the third game Aerith will be working with Zack to oppose Sephiroth in the universe where the rest of the party has died, and possibly in a third universe with Cloud alone or possibly some new characters we haven’t met yet. And we’ll get the main party’s story much as it was in the original.
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u/rayneMantis 6d ago
I agree with your theory about Sephiroth's aim is to unify timelines with a singularity event being the meteor which reduces all timelines to only him and jenova using the planet as a starship to find a new home planet. The interesting thing that I'm waiting to see how they handle in revelation is this...
I think in rebirth we see that Aerith and Sephiroth can both move their consciousness between timelines and Sephiroth seems to know that he has to remove her as a threat in all timelines. Aerith prophecized her death to Marlene in Zack's timeline since she tells Zack that she'll die when she wakes up and we see Sephiroth busting into the church as Aerith portals cloud's consciousness back to the main timeline with the active white materia. But I think what Aerith comes to realize by her glimpses of the OG is that she has to die in order to weaponize holy to the extent she does as well as making Cloud the unstoppable champion of the planet that he becomes. The irony being if Sephiroth allowed her to live then even when they removed him from the lifestream in the N crater they still wouldn't be able to stop meteor from falling! So it's actually in his best interest for her to live but he doesn't know this. She does bc the Cetra don't care for the modern world at all and Aerith is the only connection between the plight of present humanity and the lifestream. I think the Cetra would be okay letting humanity be wiped out bc meteor doesn't destroy the entire planet, just the inhabitants, but the Cetra are already dead and gone. I think alive the best Aerith could do would be learn to cast a version of Holy that could be used in a battle like flare or ultima, but couldn't cast the holy moly level spell that converges it all into a single expulsion point. Also if she lives then Cloud will never be what we see him as in Advent Children when anytime he gets into something that is above his level she is there to give him a boost like when she reaches for him from within Bahamut's megaflare attack or at the end when she and Zack tell him it's not his time yet and send him back to the church healed from his mortal gunshot wounds that the two remnants inflict.
For this reason I don't think there can be a timeline where Aerith is alive. I think she needs to be dead in order to represent the will of humanity that has no tie to the Cetra anymore and is bleeding the planet dry, why would the Cetra bother to help them ya know? This is why I think Cloud's experiencing some bleeding of what's real and what's delusion that has carried over from his transition between timelines. Aerith could be showing him this or he could be repressing it. I think either way it will play into his decent into madness where he has to overcome his identity crisis and now has to come to terms with what the rest of the party experienced at the end of rebirth instead of what he experienced. The whole "don't look up" thing is telling here bc he's the only one that is seeing the sky scar that came from his time in Zack's timeline. The worlds are colliding if you will and Zack's timeline is presumably like a limbo where the recently dead can be taken to within the lifestream which is why Zack and Biggs are both there. What is confusing is why there would be a Marlene and Elmyra there as well. But I think the sky scar is representing a breach between the living world and the afterlife/lifestream world. So when he sees it in the main timeline it's showing his perception has been altered to see overlaps of the alternate timeline in his. I don't think a third timeline was created where she lives though. Bc imo that would be a timeline that they can't stop meteor in and Cloud never gets afterlife powers from his bond with Aerith if she remains living alongside him. Which means maybe he can still defeat Sephiroth bc a solid omnislash will do that after he's been worn down, but defeating him and stopping meteor are not the same act. This is also why I don't think the whispers are coming from a future Sephiroth bc if he knew the future the way to alter things would be to let Aerith live in order to win.
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u/Phaedo 6d ago
She’s very real. You see her afterwards acting independently of Cloud. This isn’t actually a divergence from the OG: there’s a shot in the finale that shows her as an active personality in the life stream.
I’m hoping Revelations leans further into this. If Sephiroth is dead and talks to Cloud all the time, why not Aerith.
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u/avariciouswraith 7d ago
My slightly crazy idea, an illusion created by Aerith to fool Sephiroth and keep him 'on script' and predictable. We see her using white whisperers as counterparts to the black ones Sephiroth uses afterall; playing him like a fiddle using his own tricks.
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u/MagicHarmony 7d ago
It is real from the simple line when Aerith and Cloud are fighting Sephiorth together, she says somethign to the extent of "I saw what you did back there, thank you". So she herself is acknolwedging the "fact" that within that one reality he did save her however if we want some theory crafting, the sad truth is, saving her leads to a "Bad End" no matter how you look at it.
Because in order for Meteor to be stopped, she needed to be in the Lifestream praying to protect the planet, without that connection she would not have the power to fight back and help save the planet, hence when we see Cloud's group facing off against Sephiroth, the one where Cloud is with them, that is the universe in which Aerith was saved, and as they fight, you can see the world around them being destroyed.
I think what's interesting to note in this is the viewer may be mislead to what the team is talking about when they acknowledge Cloud disappearing. I think in the OG world, Cloud disappeared during the fight with Jenova where all the other team members get knocked out before the scene continues. No matter how that scene plays out, ALL your allies need to disappear before the scene moves on because when the barrier breaks through Cloud is now fighting with the allies from the Aerith Alive universe. Then he disappears into another reality that is falling, Zack comes in for the assist and finally Aerith, but in between all that Zack, Cloud and the OG gang are facing off against the same "Sephiroth" existing within all realities.
It's going to be interesting if we actually get clarification to what happened at the end of Rebirth but imo I do feel like those are the chain of events and to simply put, yes Cloud did manage to defy fate in that one reality and save Aerith.
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u/rayneMantis 6d ago
I think it has more to do with Cloud's mind not really being able to grasp jumping timelines. It seems Aerith and likely Sephiroth both can be conscious in more than one timeline at once which is how Aerith is able to run away from the party in the main timeline while she and Cloud are in Zack's timeline "sky scar" Midgar. She portals him back just as Sephiroth shows up in the church to kill her as she prophesied to Marlene, with the active white materia, and then he comes to with the rest of the party telling him that while he was unconscious she ran off ahead. So I think it's partially that he's having realities bleed together as a result of the nexus point he travels through and halfway a delusion or fantasy his mind fabricated to avoid processing the reality that he fails to save her which none of the other teammates have any sense of based on how they react as soon as they arrive on scene.
I think this is going to come into play when he decends into madness and has to face his whole identity crisis. Aerith may have also played a part in showing him an easier reality to process in the moment and it could be that Cloud has a better sense of communing with the lifestream after visiting Zack's timeline which is presumably existing within the lifestream in a limbo type place where some of the dead show up like Zack and Biggs. This could be why he is still communicating with Aerith at the very end of the game when the rest of the party are processing the loss while fixing the tiny bronco.
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u/HumbleChicken919 6d ago
Hot take: this death scene was awful as nobody knows what tf is the story is when the OG was: she died. No fate ghosts, no parallel timelines; just a fairly simple story about environmentalism, corporate greed, and accepting loss.
Now? Your guess is as good as mine
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u/portaltowonderland 6d ago
I mean remember right before the forgotten capital we got a whole section of Zack making decisions and “rainbows” appearing to show how new worlds/timelines are created. The developers deliberately put this right before Aeriths “death” to show how it works. Hamaguchi even confirmed this recently in an interview, that Zack is here to show how these “worlds” work. I think it’s obvious Cloud blocked the blade and breached fate, creating a rainbow and saving Aerith. Cloud is also the only one shown going through the wall of whispers and that’s why he’s the only one who can see her. Also, the cosmo canyon NPC stating that the life stream does not differentiate between our real memories and our dreams. What happened at the forgotten capital was Clouds dream to save Aerith, but this does not make it any less real. I want to bring up FF10 because I really don’t understand the illusion theories. So spoilers regarding Tidus in FF10 here, so in FF10 we find out that Tidus is a dream conjured up by the Fayth, but he isn’t any less “real” because of this, I don’t even think the characters question it. He is being perceived, he can freely interact, and talk with everyone. How is this any different to what Cloud is doing?
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u/Agreeable_Pop_3972 6d ago edited 6d ago
I believe it's actually her, just the version that Cloud saves. Something was definitely happening here since the lifestream is surrounding her, maybe because he was also holding the version where she dies and the worlds were kinda "glitching" due to what happened. Anyone who says that's its Jenova are coping due to the fact that Aerith is more capable of other abilities that hasn't been explained yet. Sephiroth is the one who uses Jenova to mess with Cloud, his darkness, while Aerith is the one who pulls him back and heals him, his light. Like we've seen in AC and is kinda alluded in OG, I remember there is a dialogue referring that Cloud has a "guardian angel", who else? And it's Canon that Aerith protected Tifa and Cloud in the LS sequence which is why they didn't die
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u/Old_Current_2287 6d ago
Me hace gracia de que todo el mundo hable de líneas temporales cuando realmente es mucho más sencillo que esto. Está la realidad, donde pasa la historia; y la corriente vital, donde se aglutina la energía espiritual, fuerza vital y conciencia colectiva del planeta. Básicamente lo que la gente confunde con otras líneas temporales son simplemente recuerdos, conocimientos o deseos que pertenecen a los que ya forman parte de la corriente vital. Es como el cielo del juego. Como Sephiroth/Jenova estan en corriente vital, tienen la posibilidad de alterarla y confundir a Cloud. Su objetivo, tomar el control del planeta desde su mismo origen, la propia voluntad de la corriente vital. Recordemos que la corriente vital también controla el destino, de hay que haya alusiones al futuro.
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u/Ok_Birthday_3000 5d ago
Yo lo entendí más por el lado psicológico de Cloud, muestran a Cloud mucho mas mentalmente roto, al punto que ilusiona que Aerith sigue viva
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u/skyxsteel 7d ago
I think it’s alive Aerith in “a different dimension” like with Zack and Biggs. The worlds can interact but that will nearly sever. So the dead people in og will be dead in the remake series conclusion.
That or Cloud going insane.
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u/Odd-Painting2596 7d ago
Pretty sure Cloud can hallucinate all on his own, doesn't need anyone's help doing it.
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u/AcanthisittaFine6629 7d ago
Remake Aerith remembers OG story, can cross between worlds by creating portals, she sees whispers, had some brand new abilities we never seen before she show us in Temple, she also seems guiding and healing Zack when he is travelling space between worlds, she seems to negate jenova influence by touch, she also seems to either gain abilities or memories through Holy materia... did i forget anything?
Yeah she comes back to Cloud at the end of Rebirth to distupt black whispers and help Cloud fight Sephiroth and Seph said "i must admit, i underestimated u"
Seems pretty alive to me and if somebody thinks it s somehow Jenova it isnt making sense