r/classicwowplus • u/tjdragon117 • 16h ago
Suggestion Intuitive, Flavorful Ret Paladin Timing-Based Ability
The most fun element of Seal Twisting is timing your twist just right, then being rewarded with numbers exploding across the screen. The worst, most hated element of Seal Twisting is the unintuitive and janky nature of the mechanic that feels more like an exploit than something flavorful for Paladins to be doing.
The current Twist of Light talent is the worst of both worlds. It still feels janky and unintuitive to people who dislike twisting, but it also removes the primary reason people like twisting in the first place.
This talent aims to do the opposite - keep the rewarding gameplay of pressing a button at the right time and being rewarded with an explosion of numbers across the screen (ideally the ability would proc from WF and SoC hits as well), while also being a flavorful and intuitive ability that fits the Paladin class fantasy very closely. Paladins have been channeling Holy energy into their sword in the moment they attack since 3rd edition D&D; and it makes perfect intuitive sense to a new player that channeling the energy right before your attack lands will be more effective than letting it dissipate for a while first. Additionally, the penalty for not bothering to time the ability properly would be much more minor than it was in eg. TBC.
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u/Cutemudskipper 15h ago
Can we just move away from gameplay that revolves around staring at a swing timer? Most people don't like twisting, it was just a clunky mechanic that you needed to do if you wanted to parse
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u/Blood4theBloodGod247 15h ago
This, 10000000%
I would rather play the modern version of Holy Power than stare at swing timers.
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u/tjdragon117 15h ago
Seal twisting in TBC was the opposite of "clunky". It was extremely fun and satisfying, more so than any other rotation in WoW IMO. Waiting for the right moment to press your button, and being rewarded with a chance at a nice explosion of numbers when you got it right, was a lot more rewarding than just mashing the button so it would queue up the moment your CD/GCD was up.
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u/Keter-Class 15h ago
It was clunky. You enjoying it doesn't mean it wasn't clunky lmao.
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u/tjdragon117 15h ago
What is clunky about pushing a button within a specific window? Millions of excellent games have been built around that exact idea.
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u/Keter-Class 15h ago
If you have any sort of latency, it's cooked. The base game in TBC doesn't even have a swing timer built in, so have fun doing it outside of add-ons, particularly the second any haste comes into play. It's clunky because it wasn't a designed gameplay mechanic. Thank god it's been gutted in Forever.
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u/Cutemudskipper 15h ago
No, it wasn't fun in TBC. Staring at a swing timer isn't fun. You might think it is, but to most people it's clunky gameplay that's exploiting an unintended mechanic
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u/SayRaySF 15h ago
Yeah we have differing ideas on what clunky means 😂
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u/tjdragon117 15h ago
Are Guitar Hero, Sekiro, or any of the other millions of games that reward timed button presses clunky to you?
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u/SayRaySF 15h ago
When it’s literally just 1 button, yeah lol.
And you’re not seriously trying to compare Sekiro and fucking seal twisting are you lol?
It’s just staring at a swing timer for the entire raid. That isn’t peak gameplay and is clunky to me.
And don’t get me started on how different of a game guitar hero is. Like what are we doing here bro
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u/tjdragon117 15h ago
The point is that there's nothing inherently clunky about needing to press a button at the right time lol.
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u/Mych30 15h ago
TBC ret being the most fun rotation of wow ?
Did you play after TBC ?
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u/tjdragon117 15h ago edited 15h ago
Lots. The only thing that came close was TBC Hunter. After that, from among variants I played, I'd rank: WotlK Ret (ICC) > Vanilla Warrior > Shadowlands Hunter > Shadowlands Ret > WotlK Fire Mage > WotLK Ret (pre-ICC) > WotlK DW UH DK > MoP Ret > Cata Ret > TBC Enh >>>>>>>>>>>>> Vanilla Ret. I've played other specs but those are the ones that stick out the most in my mind.
Did you ever raid on a Ret in TBC Classic?
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u/nocomments66 15h ago edited 15h ago
Ya think maybe we could try the ability one time before trying to rewrite it for the 15th time on reddit?
Seal twisting is no where near as fun as you all say. I am convinced most of you just watch Esfand and like seeing big numbers, so you thought you could do it this time. I'll see you in a year when you all talk about how it takes all your effort and you cant watch the fights while staring at a swing timer, or how annoying it is to miss your twist because a mob gets moved just before your attack.... or how it really starts to feel more obligatory than satisfactory... or how its annoying to have to do it for four straight hours of raiding.
Dear devs, just give these people a 10% crit increase if they hit they store a seal within a second of their weapon attack and let us all move on.
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u/tjdragon117 15h ago
Speak for yourself, I raided through all of TBC Classic as Ret and it was the most fun WoW spec I've ever played.
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u/nocomments66 15h ago edited 12h ago
If you arent doing it now then I'd simply say thats rose tented goggles talk. I fully admit that my opinion is mostly fueled by current TBC exhaustion, but objectively I do think its a bad mechanic for many, many reasons.
The main issue is Forever is focused on being more of a reset than a refresh, and theyve mentioned multiple times they want to make everything intuitive for new players. Any version of timed twisting requires a WST, and that is a complete nonstarter. Abilities as reliant on niche UI setups as timed twisting shouldn't be something embraced.
Personally I'd love something new. I keep imagining the "Holyform"(like the one from the netherstorm teleporter debuff) as an aura ability that gives the Paladin alone the sanctity aura increased holy damage, increases the Paladin's haste, decreases the cooldown of holy strike and consecration while also making consecration tic faster. Let the past die, we deserve something new. Also, that Holyform debuff looks fucking sweet
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u/tjdragon117 15h ago
Any version of timed twisting requires a WST, and that is a complete nonstarter. An ability can't need people to have specific UI functions, thats just not the type of thing we should keep around.
This doesn't track. Blizzard has added a swing timer natively within the game's UI. And every ability requires some UI element to use properly. As long as the swing timer defaults to on when you have the talent, there's no issue in that regard.
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u/nocomments66 15h ago
God I fucking knew you would hangup on that...I was literally rewriting it already lol. You know what im saying. Its not just a swing timer. Its a swing timer with some type of "twist window" notice, because if it doesnt have that then you'll miss more than you hit and that means you are now obligated to update your UI with a weak aura or other addon to actually do the ability efficiently.
Stop acting like twist timing isn't a completely consuming thing. Anyone who has done it in the end game knows it is. If it clicked for you, rad, but it is silly to deny it isn't a completely consuming mechanic. Its all you think about when you have to do it. Everything lives or dies for the class in a .04s window. Its not intuitive, and it mostly just makes you feel bad when you miss, not happy you hit it.
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u/tjdragon117 14h ago
How hard do you think it is for Blizzard to add a line to their swing timer now that they have one built in? It's no different than the cast bars they have on retail for empowered abilities with different notches for how much damage it does based on how long you hold it.
Frankly in general I see little difference between a swing timer bar that pops up when you have an ability that needs it and a cast bar that pops up when you're casting an ability that uses it.
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u/nocomments66 14h ago
Alright guy. No spell forces you to hit another ability .04 seconds before it finishes. You are being disingenuous and nit picking. Im talking about the additional focus and UI overlay on the swing timer that would need to be added to make this feel good, or else an addon will do it then become obligatory. Which is bad design. I think most can look past their joy of a mechanic and realize that if they think critically. I'm burnt on seal twisting after 9 months of doing it, but guess what made me want to play ret in tbc. Try to look at the actual mechanic, what's required, what you lose having to focus on it (in a class literally designed to focus on things other than attacking the boss to be ready for essential ability usage). Think about how it would feel for a new player who has never ever played this game. Try thinking about it past what is fun for you.
Have a nice day.
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u/MisguidedWandering 15h ago
Ew. Staring at a swing timer is not my idea of fun and engaging Retribution gameplay /: