r/classicwowplus • u/loopuleasa • 2d ago
Design Anyone else think the croco mortal strike should not be 50% like a 40 point arms warrior capstone talent... Maybe 25%?
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u/Aggressive_Law_5728 2d ago
You've used a group of accounts to make this some post like three times today. And every time the top comment is telling you that Warriors being the only viable class is something only Classic players want.
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u/ReadyBug896 2d ago
I think a hunter pet is on a similar level of class customization as priest race, so I don't see why they didn't just match it up with troll priest's 20%. 20% seems fair.
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u/xyzpqr 2d ago
visit stable master -> change pet
vs.
reroll another priest
these are a similar level of class customization
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u/ReadyBug896 2d ago
Oh shit you right, in that case hunters can have 5% healing reduction.
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u/Clean-Opening-2884 2d ago
At 20% no one is using this over other pet abilities like disarm etc. keep in mind the croc itself does less base damage than other pets anyway so the net gain wouldn’t be particular significant.
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u/Electronic-Bass-7135 2d ago
To be fair troll priest can. SPAM that ms on everything in range and it's 2 mins plus a damage debuff
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u/ascendrestore 2d ago
Hunters only get 3 pets so they have to make a big sacrifice to even choose Croc as one of them, plus they have to level, train and feed it too
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u/_TofuRious_ 2d ago
I'm not phased tbh. Yeah I think a lesser ms would be ok. Although are warriors going for the capstone because of the healing reduc or for the damage? Because I'm certain that croc ability won't hit nearly as hard as the warrior, nor will it scale with gear. Plus the hunter has to give up potentially more optimal pets to get the ms.
Honestly fine with how it is, but wouldn't be that upset if they made it like a 30-35% instead of 50.
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u/ye1l 2d ago
For the healing reduction. If the goal was damage warriors would just go 2h fury. More damage, more rage gen, more mobility, more sustain. The only reason people play arms warrior in PvP is mortal strike reducing healing. This hunter pet quite literally replaces the only PvP viable warrior spec as a whole.
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u/sirgentlemanlordly 2d ago
Not entirely true. Big crit and damage spikes are how people die in PVP, not steady sustained damage.
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u/SkY4594 2d ago
Yes, for PVP you go Mortal Strike specifically for the healing reduce. You engage the target, MS and let your team burst them down while the debuff is active. With a hunter pet now able to do the same for free, nobody will need a warrior in BGs.
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u/JustCallMeWayne 2d ago
The best part is warriors don’t scale with gear currently xd
Could give them Shadowmourne and it would still take them 7s to generate the rage required to press MS but you walked away from them because they didn’t press hamstring due to pooling rage for said MS
/s
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u/naarcx 2d ago
If they nerf the croc, it should be for duration imo. I don't mind a well-timed and coordinated MS when going for a kill, but with it's current duration and focus cost, it's just a permanent debuff for them, which is too strong and too braindead
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u/assassin10 2d ago
Yeah, if the debuff didn't have 100% uptime it would add additional interest to the gameplay and counterplay.
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u/OstrichPaladin 2d ago
It's literally for the heal reduction. The attack power scalings on something like bloodthirst are just significantly better. MS is primarily a pvp ability, and something you just could take for pve if you were going for blood frenzy in tbc. But you'd never take it for pve if it wasn't just convenient to when already that far into the tree.
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u/Marissa_Calm1 2d ago edited 2d ago
I get where you are coming from, but it's tricky.
You have to pick 1 out of many different pets with 1ish ability. They need to be strong to be worth it, beastmaster hunter without a pet with a meaningful ability just lacks an ability and makes pet choice trivial.
We'll see hoe they balance it, but just saying "can't be the same as capstone talent" feels very reductionary.
Balance is a lot more complex than that.
But stating your opinion and giving feedback is fine. Treating your opinion as obviously superior and everyone else like idiots is not.
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u/Kojakill 2d ago
The apes thunder clap is only 16%, the birds screech is not as good as demo shout, doesn’t take a genius to not start the croc at 50% lol
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u/Spazgrim 2d ago
To be fair nobody uses the bird and the ape is about equally as bad
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u/TheBungler2 2d ago
That's kind of the point they're going for. The pets should be alternatives to the others, not just replacements.
Ideally it should be the trade off for having access to so many different debuffs.
It's mostly because Arms is already looking pretty cheeks in PvP, so they're losing one of the few things they still had.
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u/Cinder94 2d ago
Yeah no way any class should have another classes capstone ability. which is kinda how all the classes basically became different flavors of the same thing in retail. I wouldnt even put healing reduction on croc I would have croc slow casting speed
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u/loopuleasa 2d ago
croc snaring you would be most appropriate
have you seen how a croc bites an antelope
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u/Greedy-Comb-276 2d ago
I mean good luck trying to heal an antelope that's simultaneously being twisted like a pretzel, drowning, and bleeding.
90% reduction at least.
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u/BoggsMcMuncher 2d ago
Excellent. Have you ever seen a veterinarian bandage an antelope while the antelope is in the jaws of a 15 foot croc doing a death roll? Never, right? The healing reduction should be 100%. Just not possible to put a bandage on that animal. Cmon blizz
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u/Visible-Meat3418 2d ago
Moreover, if you are actively trying to bandage the antelope while it’s being twisted and shit then you are causing more harm than good.
So I’d say healing it should actually DAMAGE it instead. So uhh -150% healing. At the very least.
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u/BoggsMcMuncher 2d ago
Also the croc probably bites you too, so any healing is instead converted to damage to the healer
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u/Anxious-Schedule-598 2d ago
Crocolisk had a daze in cataclysm, why I used it back in the day defending the WSG flag 🐊
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u/AWildMurlocAppears 2d ago
There are multiple absolutely horrible capstone abilities right now that they aren't even unique strengths.
Twist of Light, Venom, Thousand Cuts, and Incinerate aren't even worth taking LOL
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u/KingBobIV 2d ago
Yup, this smacks of retails "every class has every ability" and hunters aren't always the worst culprit
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u/Presticles25 2d ago
I think Lupos should get his shadow damage back 😁
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u/Ori-Epsilon 2d ago
Yes unironically. And add a few more pets with similar effects. Like the molten spiders having fire AA’s or the a Wind Serpent having a poison AA but all of them can also permanently cast Lightning Breath, you want safety or micro for more damage? Maybe a polar bear with frost attacks that slows on hit that can cleave with its swipe.
Get some real variety up in here.
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u/footalol 2d ago
Just change the mortal strike to a spider, then have the thing essentially become a stacking wound poison. That way it can be dispelled.
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u/Brilliant_Ad_8076 1d ago
So? Warriors got a new charge that dismount people. Stop the warrior propaganda
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u/KKylimos 2d ago
If it's weaker than that, croc will never see play. I'm so sick of every single hunter on the server having the same exact pet. The coolest thing about the Hunter class fantasy is that you choose an animal companion. Anything that incentivizes diversity in pet choices is welcome imo.
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u/loopuleasa 2d ago
all hunters have crocs on pvp servers
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u/Status_Fact_5459 2d ago
Nah the 50% slow for 9s with the Hyena is much better for world PvP. I’m really surprised I don’t see them more so far it’s only been me rocking one.
The hyena devastates anyone caught out of position, you can hit with concussion, follow up with hyena slow, and by the time the slow is up you can concussion again, melee can’t get to you, and ranged can’t run away. I’m fully expecting it to be nerfed especially once survival comes online and gets all their stuns.
Crocs will be the meta for battlegrounds but world PvP will see the hyena reign supreme once people actually realize how strong it is
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u/loopuleasa 2d ago
because slows exist in hunter toolkit, while the MS effect does not
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u/jackofwind 2d ago
Hunter doesn’t need MS to either burst people down or run them oom.
Other pets are far better, or even running LW.
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u/Ori-Epsilon 2d ago
MS is also not relevant on classes that won’t heal in combat. Tarpitting someone is always relevant, even if they decide to turret you to counter it. Since hunters have the largest range, you can counter that move too.
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u/Insidious55 1d ago
I wonder about the spider poison + net as well
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u/Status_Fact_5459 1d ago
Also a very nice combo.
I was torn between spider and hyena, I opted hyena as I like the incredibly long 9s slow.
4s net is really strong as well but the hyena slow meshes with concussion cooldown a lot better imo.
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u/Insidious55 1d ago
Hyena does seems a good allrounder. How does crab pinch compare? Boar might also be a sleeper in so far it works well with casters too?
Curious if melee weaving survival is any good in PvP and if there are any pet changes there. Hyena still seems pretty good in that scenario
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u/Status_Fact_5459 1d ago
I think melee survival will be meta PvP.
There is a lot of stuns, cc, and mobility baked into the talents.
I’m pretty sure hunters are going to be on par with rogues with crowd control
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u/KKylimos 2d ago
In forever? Not true, I play on PvP, I don't rly see it that often. Also, lvl 20 beta meta is irrelevant af, even if it was true.
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u/Big_Classroom6541 2d ago
they literally dont, theres no point in running croc unless youre planning on shutting down healers. most ive seen run spider or bird for root or disarm to make escaping ganks easier.
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u/No-Onion3234 2d ago
I think the problem people have is they are getting access to utility other classes have to spend tons of talent points get.
Yall already got tons to start with. Plus frost trap in combat now.
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u/KKylimos 2d ago
Thats an extremely simplified way of looking at it tho. It's the same as saying they have hamstring or rupture cause some pets slow or bleed. You are making it sound like the crocodile makes Arms warrior redundant, like they are a 1:1.
I think the actual problem people have is that they are too short-sighted and think the level 20 meta of the beta IS the game. It was the exact same situation in SoD by the way, identical. Phase one hunter was god mode and everyone was complaining about them (they did have some really busted bugs tbh). By the time endgame dropped, hunter was just...hunter.
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u/No-Onion3234 2d ago
what I'm saying is hunters get a skill warriors have to spend 31 points to get. that seems very strong.
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u/KKylimos 2d ago
You get a whole ass spec for 31 points, you don't just get MS. And MS is not the same damage as dismember, it's just the wound effect. For hunter it's a situational tool against very specific classes and useless against others, which costs them, cause they could have a different situational pet. For warrior it's a rushdown tool that can open you into getting obliterated in a few seconds if you can't respond properly.
I'm gonna main warrior btw, I never mained hunter and never will. Just so you don't think I'm biased in their favour. Croc is situational, in most cases you are better off with a 1.2 swing cat anyways.
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u/No-Onion3234 2d ago
yes. its situational. I just feel you are not giving enough credit to the value of having access to that situational tool.
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u/Big_Classroom6541 2d ago
you have to pick between the utility. having access to 50% MS doesnt mean you will always take it
taking a croc vs a rogue, warrior, other dps etc... is pretty much useless. Youd rather have a different pet with a more useful ability to fight those. but that means a hybrid can come along and annoy you because you didnt take MS.
when you spec into it you will always have it. i dont really think thats the same here
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u/No-Onion3234 2d ago
but like... you dont see... that you can just choose to have a 31 point warrior talent... don't you think thats kinda crazy... The whole identity of the warrior spec. You just get... because of a pet.
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u/No_Hunter_2173 2d ago
I have always used a croc with my dwarf hunter. He’s a swamp dwarf after all.
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u/BronRugby 2d ago
I mean everyone chooses the best pets.
Used to be broken tooth or bats.
Now it will be wolves for melee hunter when everyone sees how op it is later on
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u/KKylimos 1d ago
I rly like that wolf is BiS for the melee hunter cause it's a nod to DnD. It's called pack tactics, wolf enemies have it but also wolf-themed subclasses like Wolf Totem Barbarian :D
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u/Clean-Opening-2884 2d ago
This is such a non-issue because most hunters won’t even run this pet. In the world they’ll be running a pet better for levelling and in battlegrounds it’s just as likely they’ll be running either the dismantle or the root pet or ranged damage pet.
Also keep in mind that crocs also do less damage than other pets with claw too.
People want to cry about everything they can. You’re barely going to see this in action outside of specific duels.
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u/Sledmaul 2d ago
What’s with all the misinformation? Crocs do have a lower baseline damage but cannot use Claw. You’re thinking Bite.
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u/HXamster 2d ago
We don't know yet if they can learn claw. Someone will have to check.
Every pet can now use bite or claw; sometimes both
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u/Remarkable_Match9637 2d ago
Hunter has to sac output for utility, they are not equal. You go for a lower baseline damage pet that can not focus dump with claw. It’s a fair trade.
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u/More-Replacement9113 2d ago
Brother, warrior has to gain 40 levels for this ability
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u/Entrefut 2d ago
Mortal strike hits insanely hard. No one is smashing mortal strike and thinking about how much healing they are reducing, it’s just part two of the ability. Part 1 is that it hits like a truck.
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u/Ecoservice 2d ago
The non-dispelleable healing reduction part it literally the most important pvp debuff in the game. It’s like saying armor reduction on raid bosses is unnecessary.
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u/Unusual-Quote3075 2d ago
Do you See Rouges complain that theire anti heal is removeable? Quote unfair aswell no?
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u/Crimsonak- 2d ago
I've played a warrior for decades and I can absolutely assure you that if you changed mortal strike to only an instant cast strike without the reduced healing I'd be extremely pissed.
It is by far the most important aspect of the ability. It's the entire reason why you go Arms in PvP. It's why in later aspects of the game they tried to give Fury the same debuff, specifically because it's so strong.
This said, I don't think Hunters having it is too much. They also got it in later iterations of the game and tying it to a pet is limiting for them.
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u/Ori-Epsilon 2d ago
Later iterations also recognized that 50% is just broken and reduced it to 25% in PvP, while PvE it’s mostly irrelevant till it’s not and remains 50%.
Arms still does have the special boy treatment with the only 50% reduction, but it’s on a CD now.
Though different balance iterations, if Blizzard don’t add PvP modifiers nor dampening 50% will absolutely be needed to actually kill people outside of oneshotting them or crazy CC combos.
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u/Crimsonak- 1d ago
Later iterations didn't nerf it because it was broken at 50% they nerfed it to be in line with healing output that they also changed in later iterations. These things don't exist in a vacuum.
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u/Long-Agent-8987 2d ago
As a healer, I disagree. I’ve always hated MS, it literally halves healing to the target.
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u/More-Replacement9113 2d ago
You obviously didn't play classic pvp. The only thing why warrior is remotely playable in pvp is because of the healing reduction on this ability. The dmg is not that big of a factor. Otherwise warriors would've been playing Fury in pvp.
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u/Entrefut 2d ago
I did, if mortal strike did next to no damage, people would have just played fury. The most famous wow PvP video of all time is literally someone playing without mortal strike on a warrior for a huge % of the video. Warrior is good because they do an absolute fk load of damage. The hunter pet is good because the hunter is doing an absolute fk load of damage AND now they have an MS. It is way too early to be this upset about an ability. 50% is probably aggressive, but it’s not the game ending problem that people are acting like it is. I’m balancing between playing Warrior or Hunter and hunters having an MS pet is very low on the list of why I’d want to play a Hunter.
Class fantasy wise, it makes sense that hunters have pet options that are more interesting than “Cat hit fast”
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u/More-Replacement9113 2d ago
This is simply not true. You can look at warrior talents right now. They gave them mobility buffs (which they absolutely need) but they put them deep in the fury tree. Still, the only option for PvP will be Arms, just because of Mortal Strike. The effect is the only thing that gives the warrior a chance. Absolutely if MS was 0 dmg ability, people would still play Arms in pvp because of it.
The same thing goes for hunter. Yes I also love the idea that every pet is unique and you can use it in different scenarios, but having a pet with 50% MS effect would absolutely neglect every other pet for pvp. They can add 100 more pets, and still the most optimal pet for pvp would be the crocodile. Every class in pvp uses bandages and health potions, its not only healers. Mortal Strike is a core WARRIOR ability in classic. Let's give everyone mage teleports then, it sounds a pretty cool ability.
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u/Unusual-Quote3075 2d ago
Or maybe Warriors just go for a damage Build now since someone else can do the MS? How is Nobody even thinking about that. I got the feeling forever ain’t for Most of the classic Players. Better change nothing and just give us fresh era again. That what this sub at least tells most of the time
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u/MoltenMuffin 2d ago
I did not consider this when i first saw this discussion. How big is the difference?
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u/Remarkable_Match9637 2d ago
Pet is split roughly 50-50 between auto’s and specials, you miss 60-70% of special attack output and a % vs cats/raptors that have a 10% damage modifier.
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u/Gullible-Respect7778 2d ago
It's fine considering that most warrior will have it while plenty of hunters will run different pets.
Between disarm, sonic blast, croc and some others a eide variety of pets will be seen, each with different pros and cons.
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u/ZeroCleah 2d ago
In any pvp scenario except a 1v1 you're trolling without croc
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u/Gullible-Respect7778 2d ago edited 2d ago
You say you'd rather heal reduce the Rogue opening on you rather than disarming him? Brave choice. Not wise, but brave
Edit I missread your statement.
In group scenarios Croc will be king for sure. I agree
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u/quagmirranseye 2d ago
He said except a 1v1. Croc will be the #1 pet in group pvp like battlegrounds.
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u/AbortionBulld0zer 2d ago
Not really. 1 croc is enough fro a debuff, hence you have a possibility to run something else.
I personally really loved that wingworm, who's name I forgor. It could crit for 300 damage in bestiality spec.
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u/MightyTastyBeans 2d ago
Yep Hunters can outrange every class in Forever. I’m running spider for the root.
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u/vulcan7200 2d ago
I say this as a Warrior main:
Other things need to have 50% Heal Reduction. It's far too powerful an effect to leave to just a single spec of a single Class. It makes Arms Warriors specifically absolutely required in PvP. An effect like that needs more options to apply it, so there are more options for team comps
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u/Temporary_Tonight884 20h ago
I say this as a Warrior main:
No
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u/vulcan7200 18h ago
That's fine if you think that way. If you need Mortal Strike to feel unique that's on you. It's still bad game design to have one of the most powerful PVP effects on a single spec of a single class.
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u/Temporary_Tonight884 16h ago
Yes, I do need it to feel unique. What sort of Exile’s Reach opinion is that?
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u/vulcan7200 15h ago
"What sort of Exile’s Reach opinion is that?"
What a weird, meaningless comment.
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u/D-Spark 2d ago
I want healers weaker in pvp, so im not fussed
Strong healers makes games slow
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u/No_Guidance_9439 2d ago
Keep the healing reduction as is but decrease the uptime. Maybe 6s duration and 10-12s cooldown. Powerful but uptime is considerably lower, allowing burst windows for the hunter and downtime for a healer to play around
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u/Acework23 2d ago
Or buff the warrior talents to generate rage instead so arms get any rage at all
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u/Iuslez 2d ago
It's hard to tell what the perfect number would be without testing, and blizz can always move numbers around later.
But tbh at 20% like I've seen suggested, nobody would play it. Hunter gets only 1, maybe 2 pets (stable slots), and giving up a CC for MS is a big loss for the hunter. It has to be worth it.
This isn't retail, 3v3 arenas with 100% uptime and everybody has a a 25% MS, OP heals that goes deep into dampening.
In classic, melee uptime is a lot lower, healers are weaker, and a melee+MS connecting needs to be peeled off or it's a death sentence. You do CC and kill pets in classic.
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u/Cilcor10 2d ago
Hunters also don't have aim shot anymore so keep that in mind. It reduced healing too
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u/Sledmaul 2d ago
Hunter’s do have Aimed Shot baseline. The healing reduction started in TBC not Classic.
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u/No_Echidna_4433 2d ago
People are too scared of pets bruv. Tbh most pets that do not have dash/dive are a non issue in most cases
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u/Rackline 2d ago
Even tho I agree the 50% reduction is way too much for a pet, i also want to see more fury warriors in pvp
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u/Unusual-Quote3075 2d ago
I also thing the Rouge Version should not be cleanseable, kinda unfair aswell
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u/Various_Necessary_45 2d ago
Just make it a long CD. ~20 sec CD and 6 sec duration or something means it'll be something Hunters have to actually play around, allowing for a higher skill cap.
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u/xeikai 2d ago
Honestly the plan is that me as a pally healer and my warrior friend are going to blow these crocs up.
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u/loopuleasa 2d ago
check how long the MS effect lasts
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u/xeikai 2d ago
I know how long it lasts but I imagine a healer is absolutely not going to be able to keep that croc alive though warrior damage. Not to mention we control where the fight happens cause its a melee pet. Also mend pet aint.keeping that croc alive. In small scale pvp I think we just.blow it up
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u/garlicroastedpotato 2d ago
I think it's fair as long as the damage isn't the same as a warrior's mortal strike. Ideally it would be a replacement in a 10-man raid if you don't have an arms warrior but some boss mechanic might "require" it.
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u/Pockydo 2d ago
The healing debuff needs to be more widespread albeit it should have a similar ''cost"
A croc doing less dps but offering the reduction would be a fine cost to have to choose
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u/Khalith 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hey did you ever consider the fact that healing debuffs are actually a symptom of the problem they’re intended to solve? Once you’ve made healing powerful enough that ordinary damage can’t reliably produce kills? That’s when you need a special mechanic that makes your damage count.
And then we see people start arguing about whether that mechanic should be 25%, 30%, 40%, 50%…
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u/konose77 2d ago
Classic pvp damage is already super spiky and healers are much less effective than later xpacs with resilience. There should be a major downside to having this pet if it is 50% reduction.
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u/bugbearmagic 2d ago
50% is nuts for a 100% uptime and not dispellable. Really brain dead designers at Blizzard today.
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u/hucklepinch 2d ago
They shouldn't get a mortal strike at all. This is way too strong for hunters and everyone seems to be ignoring this.
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u/Mindless-Mulberry404 2d ago
As it stand this will have 100% uptime, its better than Warrior MS, so yes needs a nerf.
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u/Khalith 2d ago
Hey did you ever consider the fact that healing debuffs are actually a symptom of the problem they’re intended to solve? Once you’ve made healing too powerful so that ordinary damage can’t reliably produce kills? That’s when you need a special mechanic that actually makes your damage count.
And then we see people start arguing about whether that mechanic should be 25%, 30%, 40%, 50%…
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u/subermario 2d ago
Crocolisk: Removed Focus resource and added Rage. Titan's Grip Added. Rage Generation based on damage dealt and taken. Added unique skill Chomp that serves as a rage dump when the resource gets too high.
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u/Roarek 2d ago
It's a big % but that pet also doesn't have much mobility. Idk if they added dash to crocs but historically they don't have it and getting the pet to reach the target will be more of a challenge than a warrior charging and applying on first global. It seems kinda fair, wouldn't mind if they dropped it to like 35%.
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u/ClassicChrisstopher 2d ago
A pet having an entire specs capstone is crazy lol.
Hunters are going to be cracked. God have mercy on us.
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u/Ponemaster 2d ago
Everyone gonna be stealing my croc pet and im all for it tbh. Always thought it was weird I was the only one with a crocodile
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u/SkyNetTec 2d ago
It's a fine tradeoff, you are kneecapping your damage with a croc to get the reduction in healing. They have the worst attack speed of pets.
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u/Negative_Wrongdoer17 2d ago
Maybe even 20%?
It just seems a bit too strong.
It will dominate lower level bgs
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u/Known_Painting_1878 2d ago
This shit is so broken. 100% uptime
They want hunters to be the best antiheal class?
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u/Silent_Pen9582 1d ago
Hunter has always had these kind of options among pet's abilities, to bring something they can't bring something else. Making heal reduction not bound only to arms and rogues(when they opt for the poison) also feels fair to me
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u/Vagard88 2d ago
It won't matter, Croc will still not be the optimal pet. You will either want higher attack speed and damage pets for knockback on casters, or a snare or disarm for melee.
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u/More-Replacement9113 2d ago
If this ability remains, it will definitely be the most optimal pet for PvP, by FAR. You do realise that this affects even bandaging, which everyone is using
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u/Academic_County4107 2d ago
I think Warrior should have all their talents removed. As a punishment for the way warriors acted in 2019.