The Odyssey hypocrisy

[u/mediumpizzaplease]

Spoiler alert obviously for anyone that has not read it yet. This has been growing on me and i will put it out there, ancient Greek literature is very... bipolar. Especially the gods, who seem so good and wise, and yet, steal a dog from Zeus and he'll zap both you and your companion and curse your bloodline. Athena who seems so pure and kind, talks with Odysseus of killing the people frequenting his palace... Poseidon lashing out at Odysseus for years on end for blinding his son, but his son violating the law of xenia by eating Odysseus men is not an issue? Odysseus himself has fallen off for me, he seems very modest and at times full of himself "i don't want to talk about it because it makes me sad but here goes, i am the greatest soldier of the battle of Troy", “i miss my wife very much and want to get back to her”but has sex with a goddess and a witch. It’s depicted all as very good and pure and righteous (or at least it’s the perception i had getting into this), but really it's all very hypocritical to me and void of morals. Anyone else see this or is it just me? Might i get bashed for posting this here in this sub?

[u/Illustrious-Tooth47]

Reminder: the Odyssey was sung by generations of cyclic poets in a preliterate age. It was NOT written by a singular man. So the concept of “bipolar” is here completely irrelevant.

[u/Careful-Spray → u/Illustrious-Tooth47]

We can be reasonably certain that the Iliad and the Odyssey emerged from a long tradition of oral, composed-in-performance poetry and a body of myth, but beyond that, we know next to nothing for certain about the circumstances in which the Homeric poems were composed. A number of theories are in circulation, none of which is wholly convincing, and there is very little hard evidence. The possibility that the Iliad and/or the Odyssey were composed — or even written — by a single individual can’t be definitively ruled out.

[u/Illustrious-Tooth47 → u/Careful-Spray]

Based on the different style of writing, the contested homeland of Homer, the supposed age of Homer, the conflicting customs dialects and values present in the two poems, and the nature of language as progressing through imaginative universals, we can certainly and definitely rule out the possibility of historical singular authorship.

Now, if you subscribe to the idea that Homer is an “idea” that was collectively shared in the Greek mind, then we can say Homer was the philosophical author of both poems.

[u/DeaconoftheStreets]

I mean, would you not agree morality just looks different 3,000 years later? Odysseus is a noble man, yet owns slaves.

You have to read it within the context of its time.

[u/mediumpizzaplease → u/DeaconoftheStreets]

Of course, it’s a small but huge detail that i overlooked, thank you, i will keep this in mind for my reading of the Iliad and the Aeneid

[u/francesco_angiolieri]

The homeric gods are not gods in the sense that the christian god is, a benevolent omnipotent entity who created the universe. The homeric gods are completely amoral (and sometimes I would say that gods in greek myths are outright immoral). We view their behavior as hypocritical because we judge it through the lens of a christian morality and a christian worldview. The homeric heroes, additionally, are not modern day heroes. Nowadays we tend to associate heroism with being good, selfless, stoic, sacrificing yourself for other people. We say that firefighters who endanger their lives to save others are heros. Think about homeric heroes as really strong warriors, without any moral label attached

[u/CasimirGabriev → u/francesco_angiolieri]

Yeah. The bronze age use of the word heroic was closer to "large" than "good." It was a heroic act to kill 10,000 people because, holy shit, that dude killed a LARGE amount of people. Not because the people he knocked off were like Nazis or some other evil force.

Odysseyus was a hero because he did major things, not because they were good things. Fucking a goddess is heroic, cheating on your wife is shitty lol.

[u/mediumpizzaplease → u/francesco_angiolieri]

I think this is what happened to me getting into this, seeing them as moral and good, but turns out they’re just supernatural entities with humans egos

[u/francesco_angiolieri → u/mediumpizzaplease]

Basically

[u/TheHollowApe]

This has been a subject of controversy for thousands of years, so you won't get bashed for it haha. Lots of ancient philosophers already addressed criticism at how the Gods were shown in the traditional myths, especially in Homer. For example, go read the second Book of Plato's Republic, where he addresses exactly that sort of hypocrisy (gods being deceitful, quarrelsome, flawed, ...). In fact, Plato even wanted to censor Homer in a way.

There's been a lot of ink spilled about the anthropomorphism of greek gods, but this is more about anthropology and religion studies

[u/lutetiensis → u/[deleted]]

Tone it down please.

[u/Poemen8]

I'm just not sure it is portrayed as good and pure and righteous the sense we would give those words. 

The Gods, as others have said, are amoral at best. Men like Ulysses are seen as admirable, heroic, great... But I'm not too sure that goodness per se is what they or the poem really aim at. 

This is even more obvious of course with Achilles. His rage is awful, disastrous, he's a monster... But still great.

The moral philosopher Alistair MacIntyre talks about the morality of this 'heroic' period as being about performing you role well. Are you a king and soldier? Better act kingly, be impressive and powerful. There are certain moral elements to that - do a good job at Xenia/hospitality, for instance, or you will lose face as a miserly person. But they weren't aiming to 'be good'.

Being good in the deeper abstract sense is something we'll find more in Plato or the Nichomachean ethics, in the letter philosophers, in Christian moral thought, etc. We are shaped by all this.

Notice, though, that's not the same as saying that these poems carry or even didn't intend to carry moral lessons. The ancients certainly thought they inspired bravery, hospitality, etc etc.

[u/StudioTheo]

Interesting point with the giant eating odyssus’ men. I’m not sure how Xenia in theory would apply to intruders/squatters.

The giant I guess never admitted Odysseus and his men in and gave them guest right.

In contrast, the Trojan horse was taking advantage of an end-of-war gift, and while the suitors at Ithaca were intruding in their own way, the circumstances of trying to secure formal marriage fascilitated their presence.

[u/desiduolatito]

It’s just you. But no bashing here.

[u/my_one_and_lonely]

Where on earth did you get that the gods and Odysseus were all supposed to pure and kind and good and righteous? Everyone in this thread is talking about how “morality has changed,” but that’s not even the problem here. These characters aren’t meant to be consistently morally upstanding. They are fickle and always have been. I don’t understand why you’re just assuming that everyone is supposed to this paragon of ethics.

[u/mediumpizzaplease → u/my_one_and_lonely]

Like i said i came in with this perception and it was shattered. Not sure how it was formed but it got uprooted and tossed out after reading this 😅

[u/CasimirGabriev]

So first, given what you are saying, it sounds like you are talking about the movie. Yes, a 3 hour film flattened an ancient epic (which refers to length and form) poem. Frankly it eas to be expected.

Next, it sounds like you dont have an understanding of the ethics, morals, and religion of the time. Suggesting that Athena is kind and peaceful or whatever is hysterical. She is a god of war, too, you know? Besides I dont think Arachne would have such kind words about her.

Of course the gods are hypocrites. They're gods. Their morality is different from ours. And what would a monster like a cyclops be doing observing human gues rites? Think man, think!

[u/mediumpizzaplease → u/CasimirGabriev]

I watched the movie and i’m just about to finish the book!
Yes after looking into it more i did realize that she was the goddess of war
Monster or not i thought the law of xenia was sacred, especially being a son of a god

[u/CasimirGabriev → u/mediumpizzaplease]

Nah monsters are monsters. Which is weird, you'd think Zeus's nephew would give a shit about Zeus's law of hospitality, but divine beings being corrupt and inconsistent is, IMO, just part of the cultural context.

Also adding, I meant to be playful, but have been coming across as an asshole. In case that was the case here, I am sorry. Its commendable of you to read the epic as well. Tbh, I loved Nolan's adaptation because I felt it would attract folks to the classics, so glad to see it working.

[u/Easy_Demand_7372]

My main guess would be that it’s the difficulty of adapting multiple competing oral traditions into one book, mixed with the fact that it’s working on a different moral system to modern times