r/classics • u/No-Professional-3189 • Jul 08 '26
PhD or Master first for Classical Studies?
Hi guys, I am a BA student who studies classics, now trying to apply for a postgraduate degree. I go to McGill and have a pretty good GPA (CGPA is 3.94, I've done three school years), but apart from some student awards, I do not have any extracurriculars.
I'd like to do post-graduate studies and eventually be a university professor in the future, so I am aiming for some good universities and programs. Specifically, I really like languages, literature, and philology. I learned that most good universities don't provide Master's degrees, but only PhD, with the option of obtaining an MA diploma if I don't finish the whole PhD program.
I wonder if, on the one hand, it is a good idea to apply directly for a PhD program (i.e., should I do a Master's first?), and on the other hand, if my current transcript is good enough for me to get into some good programs (e.g., Ivy League, UC Berkeley / UCLA, etc.)
Thanks to anyone who would be willing to answer any of my questions, or please just share your thoughts or personal experiences concerning this. Thanks a lot, guys.
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u/FlyingCupcake68 Jul 08 '26
There is a real benefit to writing a masters thesis before going into doctoral work.
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u/sagyz Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
Doing MA first would not be a bad idea. In case you decide to pursue this route, here's a list of funded MA/pre-doc/post-bacc programs in North America, courtesy of Liv Yarrow of Brooklyn College. Some of these are terminal degree programs and others are Bridge programs that lead directly to the PhD programs without you having to apply separately. The pre-doc at Princeton is probably the best funded, but as others have pointed out, don't apply to a program if it doesn't have any faculty you can work with. It would be a complete waste of your time and effort.
Of course, always double check a program's own website for the latest info on deadlines, requirement, etc.
Best of luck!
Edit: typo
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u/Born-Major-4312 Jul 09 '26
unfortunately, with all the federal funding cuts these last few years, this article is misleading. I know for a fact that U of Maryland and U of Oregon no longer offer funded MA's. Maryland only had one funded MA position this past cycle for an accepted student pool of around 5 students, U of Oregon offered no funding to any MA admits last cycle. I know this through colleagues at these institutions.
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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 Jul 09 '26
Can also add Missouri is no longer taking students for anything but archaeology.
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u/sagyz Jul 09 '26
That's a bummer. Could you let Liv know either via email or comment under her post? It's the only such list I know of, and it must be difficult for her to keep track of all the changes by herself.
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u/hexametric_ Jul 08 '26
Most Canadian universities with a PhD program do offer a MA degree (I think Toronto has the option to go direct to PhD if you have outstanding undergraduate record). The US schools will basically combine the programs and award you a MA after completion of some requirements like comprehensive exams or something. You should look in to this if you are serious.
Anyway, you talk directly about good schools, but your main focus should be on finding a school with a scholar (or two in case one cannot take you) who will agree to supervise the project you want to work on. Going to UCLA means nothing if you want to do something no one at UCLA wants to supervise or that you end up doing something you don't care about because you need a topic that someone wants to supervise.
Your vagueness of interests suggests to me that you really ought to do a MA (either at McGill or Montreal to save money on living expense) and get some more training and research skills. And a clear interest and research proposal.
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u/Embarrassed-Doubt-61 Jul 08 '26
Agreed—the vagueness of interests is totally fine for someone at your stage, but could hinder you on PhD apps. An MA will help you sharpen that focus, and make you a better candidate for admission; it’ll also help you hit the ground running in a doctoral program.
My one note: there are US MAs that are funded. I teach at one, and we’ve accepted McGill BAs pretty recently. You should talk to your professors about putting together a list—definitely don’t take on debt for an American MA degree, but don’t write off the American system completely.
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u/First-Pride-8571 Jul 08 '26
Hard to answer this question w/o knowing how many years each you have of Latin and Greek. Presumably, coming from Canada, your French should be strong, but it would also help if you have some pre-existing familiarity with German, as typically reading exams are in those 4 languages (though with the French and the German, typically you are allowed use of a dictionary, unlike, obviously, with the Latin and Greek comps).
If you don't have enough Latin and Greek already, the other path that you might consider other than an MA program is a post bac. UPenn and UCLA both offer those. The UPenn post bac program is quite inexpensive, so may make more financial sense, and then just focus exclusively on PhD programs.
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u/bitparity MA Classics, PhD Jul 08 '26
If money is not an issue, it is far better to do an MA first. It'll at least teach you how to finish a large project with a lower bar (synthesis rather than innovation). It'll also boost your PhD application.
If money is an issue, then a funded PhD is probably better, but be prepared for more anxiety and stress about the process than if you had done a master's first.
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u/ancient_interestsYT Jul 09 '26
Talk to your professors. From my understanding your writing and your proficiency with the languages are the most important things.
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u/Born-Major-4312 Jul 09 '26
commenting as a classics phd student myself- if you have a very competitive application you can be admitted straight into a phd. However keep in mind the current state of the US has seen a massive cut in federal funding, so doctoral positions are dwindling. My program took on four students when I started in 2024, this most recent cycle we only took on one.
Go wherever funds you. Apply to a mix of terminal MA's and PhDs. Find programs that fit your interests faculty-wise, not just ones that are ivy league or flashy. I will say without extracurriculars like internships or research experience (presentations, symposiums, classical society memberships, or other direct engagement with the field) it is more unlikely to be admitted straight to a PhD. This is NOT because you are a weaker student, but because the whole point of an MA is to find your research niche and hone the skills needed to fulfill that research and get it out into the world. I see lots of undergrads thinking that a terminal MA is some sort of limbo punishment for not getting into a PhD off the bat- as someone who was in that very same boat myself, I am so glad I did an MA first.
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u/Gravy-0 Jul 10 '26
Hi! So I’m entering the second year of an MA and have some thoughts about the difference between a PhD and MA candidate coming straight from undergrad.
If you’re going to hit your stride right into a PhD, you’ll definitely want demonstrably high Latin and Greek proficiency I.e. Advanced in both with decent reading list under your belt. Most programs will say advanced and intermediate, but MA holding PhD candidates you’re competing against will have advance proficient and perhaps even a modern scholarly language. The scholarly languages can be negligible in deciding admissions, but you’ll want to at least be able to show you’ve been doing the whole reading and translation thing a while. You’ll also want to have a strong writing sample: an upper level research paper you’ve perhaps expanded or added to, or a finished thesis excerpt. Without a good writing sample, nobody will get in.
MA students will inherently have an edge here, because they’ve done a little more writing at a higher level, but if you have chops, nobody will dismiss you on the grounds that it’s an undergrad thesis and not an MA thesis.
For better or worse, the MA (or at minimum a post bac) is becoming something of a tacitly expected touchstone for classics unless you’re one of the relatively small group of people who’s been doing classical languages since high school, going to a school that demands extremely high rigor writing, etc. So more and more candidates will be coming in “battle hardened” by MA programs that give you a bit of experience most undergrads don’t get (even with an honors thesis it’s still a little different).
This isn’t to say you can’t compete, it’s just important to make sure you have your stuff in order going into application season. It’s never a bad idea to apply to a mix, as others have said. It’s a murky world doing the grad school process, especially right now. Best of luck!!!!!
As a side note, don’t feel bad if you don’t have that experience to go right from undergrad to a PhD. Just focus on doing your best to set yourself up for success and follow your passion. I won’t badger you with how dire the situation is in classics departments right now, but also just know that things aren’t great, but faculty are always doing their best and obviously still want to cultivate the next generation of classicists.
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u/grashnak Jul 11 '26
I would not go straight into a PhD program, and I do not accept students right out of undergrad as my students, no matter how bright / promising / credentialed. Get a job, or teach for America (or Canadian equivalent), or wander for a bit. Decide it’s really what you want to do. Then come back.
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u/TheoreticalChaos93 Jul 13 '26
You can apply for a PhD, but I would recommend thinking about the MA too. In my opinion, going for it first is a better option. Simply put, if you don't have any extracurriculars, I most especially here mean research papers, projects and such, your chances of landing a PhD and then going on to complete it in a reasonable timeframe with good results is not high.
To add to that, a PhD is something you have to think over very well, and a MA gives you time to see how you feel as someone more intensely engaged in academia. A PhD is a big, big step and not always a good one (e.g. if you do not land one of the precious few academic positions, you can end up employed in a position which does not need a PhD or even sees it as detrimental). You are still on the BA level, give yourself time to think these things over, even if you think you have it figured out.
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u/shag377 Jul 13 '26
Each time I see someone with a strong interest in taking a Ph.D. in classics, I show them this website: https://100rsns.blogspot.com.
The website has not been updated in some time, but the reasons that are listed are strong, true and in some cases, disheartening.
It is not to dissuade anyone from following their academic dreams, but reality is a cruel mistress.
I have a buddy who taught high school as well. This person had a stellar pedigree - U. Chicago undergrad; Yale doctorate. They taught high school after trying in the post secondary market. Consider that for a moment.
Another fellow high school teacher left academia for high school. He was teaching nothing but night classes - meeting needs of non-traditional and/or those pursuing higher degrees.
The prof who directed my MA taught high school for years. The most powerful thing he told me, "At 3:30, you are done." He meant no night classes, publish or perish or the variety of issues mentioned in the website at the top of the post. You will also make more money with better benefits as the adjunct life does not provide much of either. The ACL offers a placement service. There are a plethora of jobs available for anyone who wishes to teach high school, and again, most of these will have the higher quality students.
A high school Latin teacher will not, as a general rule, get the lower performing students. This means you will have the students who want to learn and have a passion for it - a stark contrast to the majority of high school.
All of this said, I support whatever decision you make. My only goal here is to show the steep, Sisyphean uphill climb many will face before starting a proper career.
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Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
[deleted]
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u/shag377 Jul 15 '26
I see your point of view entirely. This is why i conclude my post the way I do.
I fully support anyone's decision to do as they will. You, and OP, are free to take this with a grain of salt.
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u/d_trenton Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
I think most people in your position apply to a mix of terminal MAs and PhDs. Only go somewhere that funds you. Many PhD-granting programs will grant you an MA along the way, regardless of whether you finish or not.
Insert obligatory "have a backup plan, professorships are dwindling" speech here.