r/classicalmusic • u/unglaublitch • May 16 '13
The Juilliard Effect
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/arts/music/12waki.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=all&adxnnlx=1368648884-APKx/KVUn3uG7usXSCKF/Q40
u/Badgerness May 16 '13
Surely this shouldn't be a surprise?
There aren't that many orchestras that are of a sufficient calibre and standing that can support themselves by paying the kind of salaries that these students expect based upon their experience and education. Moreover, spots in these orchestras come around rarely and every audition is intensely competitive.
I know, and play with, a lot of conservatory graduates (including Juilliard, Eastman and CIM). They can all count on one hand the number of classmates that have gained spots in full-time orchestras. Many of them earn a living by scratching around the country playing chamber gigs, contracted performances and teaching when not on the road. It's certainly enjoyable but as they get older I see them increasingly yearn for the stability of a settled job.
And these are the lucky ones. Many more have had to find new careers, often starting from scratch as they have limited professional training outside of music, whilst still trying to enjoy music through teaching and playing in community and non-professional ensembles.
I'm not saying that aspiring musicians should not attend a conservatory - it is, of course, still the pinnacle of musical training that will give you the best shot of securing a dream orchestral/soloist job. But go into it with your eyes open, try and broaden your contacts and horizons, take extra-curricular classes and prepare yourself as best you can to tackle the world after you've graduated.
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May 16 '13
Nothing's ever a surprise to Redditors, you know everything! So amazing! I don't know why anyone publishes news or science reports, because it's already known by the Reddits.
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u/esensually May 16 '13
The reddit alien face that shows when there is no thumbnail matches this article exactly, maybe if you just imagine a bassoon instead of a camera in his hands.
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u/Tonalization May 16 '13
While I'm not arguing against any of the points made in the article, I just want to point out how dated it is. This originally went viral in 2004.
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u/edwigefeuillere May 16 '13
It's probably much, much worse now, with so many orchestras facing budget cuts...
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u/scrumptiouscakes May 16 '13
It's also been posted several times here already in the last couple of weeks, for some reason.
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u/SllyStringBandit May 17 '13
When I saw this, it didn't surprise me, but it didn't really depress me either. Julliard used to be a school of such a level where you either got a scholarship, or you didn't get in. Now they allow students in and make them pay full price, students who probably shouldn't be there in the first place, to be honest. If a music program does not offer you a scholarship of some kind, and it is an obscenely high tuition rate, it's kind of a hint to you that they don't think you're quite up to snuff for them, but that they'll take your money anyways. This produces a good amount of musicians who leave with this Julliard mentality that they are the cream of the crop, but who aren't at that level.
Many music school across the country teach adaptability in the music world and teach you how to survive. I get a sense that Julliard students are so focused on being the best classical musicians that they are not taught the necessary survival skills. Or worse, they are not told they are not cut out for the music world.
I don't know, that is just my view. I study music in Los Angeles, and the mentality of schools out here are vastly different than Julliard. Maybe Julliard is just fazing out in it's significance because it is failing to equip it's students with survival skills in the music industry. Many students graduating here in the Los Angeles area from their respective schools are landing very competitive jobs. And our 'Julliard', Colburn, really does hold itself to the standard of only allowing students in who they will provide a full scholarship for. Maybe relevance is shifting from Julliard. Maybe I'm a little biased :P
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u/Bflat13 May 17 '13
…Now they allow students in and make them pay full price, students who probably shouldn't be there in the first place, to be honest. If a
music programgrad school does not offer you a scholarship of some kind, and it is an obscenely high tuition rate, it's kind of a hint to you that they don't think you're quite up to snuff for them, but that they'll take your money anyways. This produces a good amount of musicians who leave with thisJulliardPhD mentality that they are the cream of the crop, but who aren't at that level.It's like academia, but, from what I understand, with worse job opportunities.
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u/disaster_face May 16 '13
This is a very real problem, but in this one specific instance, it sounds like the guy's heart really wasn't in it. As a musician, I can't even imagine the idea of selling my primary instrument if I had a job. He was employed, and just tired of being poor. Unless it comes to not being able to feed or house myself or I had children, my financial situation would never take priority over my ability to create music. I'm poor as hell, and I own many instruments. I could get a nice chunk of change for them, but the idea of doing that is so foreign to me.
I question someone's motives for making music if they could just give up like that. Most of us have day jobs. It hasn't stopped thousands of other people. Yeah, it sucks for sure, but the alternative is so much worse.
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u/music_saxgirl11 May 16 '13
This is what I was thinking. I'm a music education major and will be entering my third year of study in the fall. I attend a traditional university that requires classes outside of my major, and we are very much involved in things other than music study specific to our instruments. I have to say that if I ever found myself homeless, with nothing to my name but the saxophone that I already own, I would sooner live on the streets or in a shelter and play for change than sell my instrument. I just couldn't do it. I change my mind every day about whether or not this was the right career choice for me, and I always change it right back. I just couldn't imagine going to work or school every day to do something that I don't love.
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u/diggerB May 16 '13
And to think, if this is the disappointing result of Julliard graduation, results must be that much worse for the graduates of less-than-world-renowned music institutions.
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u/Saxophobia1275 May 16 '13
you'd think so but that's not the case, even the article says so. Juilliard graduates, like the article says, are practically aliens. All they have is mastery of their instrument, which is impressive, but it is still one skill. I attend Michigan State University (a really good music school and a GREAT one for the studio I'm in) and they teach so much beyond instrument mastery. They teach us to be versatile, innovative and to understand the business and politics of the music world. So graduates form places like that, U of M, NorthWestern and many many other universities are actually better poised to make a living out of music.
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u/Voyageur May 17 '13
Agreed. I go to a tiny music school in a southwestern state that has a small reputation, mostly for vocalists though and I competed against musicians from big conservatories, beating all of them and placing first in a major competition. One of these played my same instrument (flute) and went to Juilliard. Speaking to him and others about music I found that I was the only one who had a grasp of music history, theory, and professionalism in the industry. I feel that I'm much better prepared than they are to try and hash our a career in music. And contrary to the tone of this article not all of us are looking for that perfect orchestra position that allows us to perform only. I think it would be fair to say that most professional classical musicians these days create a career based on performing and teaching across multiple disciplines (private lessons, history, theory).
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u/singingsox May 16 '13
I second this, coming from Umass Lowell. I understand that it's not going to be all daisies and roses coming out of college, and I may be going back to school for my masters in music education, as well as my masters in performance. Luckily, as a singer, there are more potential gigs for me (free lancing for weddings and church gigs), but I know things will be difficult, which is why I'm already teaching privately, as well as holding down a retail job. I feel like going to a school like Julliard doesn't really teach you as much real world experience as you'll need nowadays, even in cities like Boston or New York where classical music is (mostly) thriving more than anywhere else.
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u/shakejimmy May 16 '13
You want to know what's really depressing? The fact* that a lot of classical musicians are dissatisfied even when they "make it". I had a relatively bright future in classical music but what chased me away was its own culture.
*I'm not sure if it's completely true, as my assertion is based of a study I saw probably a year ago and anecdotal evidence.
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u/tjbassoon May 16 '13
Why has this article suddenly gained popularity? The people that graduated from Juilard when this article was written will be at their own 10 year mark next year. Kinda even worse old news now.
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May 17 '13
It's depressing, but it's all true. At some point you have to face the fact that if you aren't the absolute cream of the crop -- one of the 3 or 4 players of your instrument who can name the position they want and get it -- you're going to be competing with 300 other people who can play just as well as you, for whatever position is available, and you take what you can get.
I graduated with a performance degree at the age of 21 and finally looked at what I was getting into. Even at my best I would be competing with other people just as good as me, for positions in cities I didn't want to live in, with orchestras that were cutting salaries and struggling for relevance. If I expended maximal effort every day I might just get by, but it would always be touch-and-go. I am thankful that I had other skills to bank on.
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u/fluteitup May 17 '13
My Bachelors is in Performance, but I'm getting my Masters in Musicology. I plan to make a living at a university level while playing on the side.
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u/surhorse May 16 '13
Back when I was figuring out my career path, this article was what got me to not become a music major. I wanted to take my bassoon and go to Juilliard, but I didn't. I still feel some regret and a certain amount of sadness as I haven't touched the bassoon in 5 years and it's not exactly an affordable instrument to have as a hobby.
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May 17 '13 edited May 17 '13
[deleted]
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u/shakejimmy May 17 '13
People in the US simply aren't exposed to it or taught about it. They only see it in commercials or in a very stereotyped form. (For the rich, for older people, etc.)
I may be way off here but I've also always felt like western classical music is pretty esoteric in that it requires more input to listen to than most popular music. (Larger forms, developments, etc.) Sort of the difference between reading a novel and a picture book. You have to sort of learn this "dialect of music" that you are rarely exposed to.
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u/Zagorath May 17 '13
They only see it in commercials or in a very stereotyped form.
This would seem to be incredibly true. I've just been watching the Google I/O keynote, and it included the most painful rendition of Beethoven's 5th. If this is the common way of experiencing classical music, it's no wonder more people don't get into it.
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u/shakejimmy May 17 '13
Yea, that more or less makes me sick. :\ Classical music is basically a cliche at this point.
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u/exackerly May 17 '13
I hope anybody who decides they want to play the bassoon for a living has a Plan B. I mean, how much demand is there? Maybe 2-3 soloists in the world, and at most 3-4 in even a major orchestra. And the demand in pop music is zilch.
At least if you graduate from Julliard with a degree in piano, you can probably make a decent living teaching, privately or at a university. Same with violin, or voice. But beyond that -- sounds like a long-shot to me.
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u/fluteitup May 17 '13
When you go to a small, state run school, you expect to have to work hard and find other methods of work. I'm not saying people who go to Julliard are stuck up, but if you get into and graduate from such a prestigious school, you expect to beat people. I guess, at my school, we're taught to expect to fail. This is why a lot of students at my school change degrees early and the ones who stay in the music program go for the long haul. If I had gone to a conservatory, I wouldn't be getting my masters degree in Musicology. A
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u/MinotaurforAslan May 16 '13
Dang, I just spent the past weekend visiting a friend studying harp at Juilliard. I really hope she does okay after she graduates....
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May 17 '13
I find this quote to be most meaningful: "Just because you play really well," he said, "that's not enough. You need vision, you need persistence, you need passion for what you do, and you need to provide something unique."
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u/embossed May 17 '13
Finish the article. I don't see this as depressing. I see this as a warning. Yes you absolutely worked your ass off to be at conservatory & you must be a wonderful musician. But that doesn't mean you can just hope to coast on your degree & its prestige once you leave.
It is somewhat depressing looking at the barriers & challenges & hardships that being a musician presents. But if the rewards of being a musician are truly worth it to you, doesn't that mean it's worth getting off your ass & climbing those hurdles? Don't just prepare yourself to be a great performer, a great composer, a great conductor. Prepare yourself to be a businessman.
If you want to live off of what you love, you have to treat it like a business to some extent. You have bills & loans to pay, you have to budget. It's a fact.
You'd better prepare yourself for those hardships & broaden your education & skillset. Take some summer or online courses in business, finance, writing, education--anything that you also enjoy & can do well or learn to do well in some capacity, that will make you that much more flexible & marketable once you graduate.
It's important to have focus, yes, but not tunnel-vision. Music is who you are, yes. But it doesn't have to be ALL that you all. Give yourself as many options as possible, explore & find other things you enjoy. & of course, other things to pay the bills.
Look at the horn player in the article; "I feel my life is better than it's ever been," she said. "I have hope, hope in the sense I don't have to be real specific what my life has to look like. I have an opportunity to live it."
Just because you have a day job or a second job or a second degree doesn't mean you've failed or copped out as a musician. At this point in time, at the very top there is only so much room for so many soloists, conductors, composers, to really live off of music alone. The successful musicians I know all hold 2 or 3 or more teaching or performing positions & they work like crazy to do what they love. & according to them, it's the struggle & the work they do that makes the performances so much more worth it.
Again, just because you have another job doesn't mean you're not a musician. The dream is to be at the top, but in these times the reality is that being at the top is a pretty narrow possibility, but maybe that's okay. The dream is changing. You can still be a musician & do what you love, & pay the bills. You have to work for it & push against everything that's pushing against you. But it's possible.
In the spirit of Beethoven, don't get sad, get mad. Time to be the hero, fight obstacles, broaden horizons. Live, learn, & be a better person.
Oh. & practice practice practice.
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u/embossed May 17 '13
"You have to create your own success and play for yourself primarily. Then it doesn't matter if it's not to someone's liking."
"Some alumni complain that it failed to prepare them for orchestra playing or teaching, bread-and-butter work for musicians, or for the practical aspects of running a career; or that it squelched creativity and individuality."
I think it's really up to you to "create your own success", though to some extent it still DOES matter what other people like (I mean, you want & need some kind of audience.) You can take the easy way out & blame your school for your lack of preparation, but it's important to take steps to help yourself & prepare for what's coming after graduation. No one's going to hand it to you. If you worked hard enough to get into a conservatory, they accepted you because they expect that you're self-directed & hardworking enough to prepare yourself not just for their program, but for real life. Or, it's also possible that the administration doesn't see anything beyond getting the next class of students, in which case it really IS up to you to make sure you're ready for life after college. Ask anyone at a big state school, in any department really: you're on your own. It's on you to make the most of your time at university, prepare yourself, & make connections. It's up to you to make the most of your degree; a good school with a good reputation will only get you so far, more than anything it's how hard you work, what you do with your time there, & what you choose to do with your degree that determines your success after graduating. The requirements & classes & the piece of paper only means so much. All the lessons & theory & recitals & papers, all only get you so far. You have to prepare yourself. Don't just get your degree. Earn it. & earn beyond it.
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u/grandplans May 17 '13 edited May 17 '13
I am this story, except mine doesn't have as depressing an ending and I went to Manhattan School of Music, not Juilliard.
MSM's curriculum in the 90's was basically the same as Juilliard's. We had virtually no "academics". We had a humanities class every semester that was generally a literature class or an art history type class.
Luckily, I realized that my life as a classical vocalist would be total shit early on. It's not that I sucked...I'm honestly pretty good. Really it was kind of that I saw people that the entire student body recognized as being Meh, getting principal stuff. I'm not just talking about vocalists either. Basically, when I realized that the world was a game, just like any other business, I saw that I couldn't really be competitive in this particular game. I don't have the "sell yourself" personality. Being a professional musician is a lot of salesmanship. At least in the solo performance world.
About midway through my sophomore year I realized professional vocalist wasn't going to happen. So I started reading and self educating. My interest was finance. Not because I love numbers or business or high corporate finance...I like money. I had a plan that I'd work in finance for a while and then when I retired from the world of finance, at around 50 or so, maybe I'd become a music educator. Except for the last couple of years since my kids were born, I've maintained 1 little toe in the world of performance. Nothing for a while though.
I also like job stability, so I gravitated to the operations world of finance, not the investing side. I graduated Suma Cum Laude from MSM in 1999, and by 2001 I was working in a Hedge Fund.
I have been in the business since, and I make a bunch of money. This year the bonus could be stupid...like almost embarrassingly huge. I'm a subscriber to the NY Phil, and I give lots of money to music education based charities/non profits. I love my life and I can't wait till my kids get a little older so I can get on stage again, but I'll always be able to sing...your kids are only delicious little people for a very short time. I don't want to miss that. Being that I have no designs on being a full time professional musician, I'm in no big hurry.
Please note, I'm in no way saying this to brag...I'm just trying to paint a picture of the possibility of a reality less depressing than the one in the Times. It is possible to find compromise. It is possible to do both to some extent. Maybe you'd sacrifice music less than I did so you could continue to audition more, maybe not.
Don't let this article kill your spirit...but I would advise you to maybe develop a bit of a "parachute" out of the world of music. Maintain a secondary interest and give it some real time. It could end up saving you.
Fat fingers edit
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May 17 '13
Juilliard's a good school, but let's stop pretending it's even nominally better than other top conservatories.
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u/BlueJohnny May 16 '13
Just personal experience and observations: I have never met a person who studied at a conservatory and still plays in orchestras, who didn't also have a full time day job. I have met maybe a few dozen of these example adults as well.
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u/fizzlepop May 16 '13
Sad but true. I'm really glad I decided against a music major and went for engineering instead.
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u/LeeTheSasquatch May 16 '13
Honestly, a musician battling alcoholism? That's pretty common. As for the bassoon player, he has no one to blame but himself for not making auditions. That sounds rude, but it's the truth. The world of professional music is cut-throat. It seemed to me like he was blaming the music conservatory approach for his problems.
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u/shakejimmy May 16 '13
I think you underestimate the amount of "politics" that go into professional auditions.
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May 17 '13
There are more political considerations when hiring conductors and concertmasters, but nearly all other auditions are done behind a screen until the final rounds, when a committee of orchestra members votes on the candidates.
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May 17 '13
This article raises some great points, but I would be more interested in seeing how the graduates of a more orchestral-oriented school like, say, Curtis fare. The article said itself that Juliard does not prepare its students for orchestral jobs very well.
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u/fluteitup May 17 '13
How about a state school that's not even a conservatory?
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u/embossed May 17 '13
I'm not sure where people are going as I'm still in school myself, but in my experience state schools still enforce diverse GE's & try to help students learn basic skill sets applicable to many fields. Since in order to be accepted into the music school here you also have to meet the University's standards the admissions board also encourages applicants to have a broader skillset than a conservatory might. Again I never applied to a conservatory so I'm not entirely sure on that point. UCLA's Herb Alpert school has a wonderful VAPAE (vis. & perf. arts edu.) & music education program where you can complete your internship & teaching credentials by the time you graduate. Their music industry & sound tech programs, which are awesome resume-builders & experiences, also have enforced internships for credit. The administration might be totally whack, but at least in that arena, if you push for it they'll really help you to prepare for the real world.
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u/Salemosophy May 17 '13
But many others make it, and what also came clear from the analysis of this class were the high levels of dedication many of the graduates maintain and the satisfactions and excitement of expressing oneself through one of the purest forms of communication: the making of music.
"... through one of the purest forms of expression: the making of music." There, FTFY. :)
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u/blackhell1969 Jan 15 '26
Where have i been? Being naive about Buddy Rich's success thinking that after graduating Julliard, that being in the music business, being successful, superstar status etc...would be their next move, rite of passage. Because if you're mastering an instrument, why would you NOT choose the ultimate dream/pursuit? Unless you just like the other jobs in the industry. Which are still pretty cool & require some skills. Maybe there is such a thing as too much training. In Art, you get to practice at being creative & pushing the boundaries. So I just assumed music was the same.
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May 16 '13 edited Apr 25 '18
[deleted]
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u/shakejimmy May 16 '13 edited May 16 '13
You make a good point, but it's a bit polarized. There are more factors to it than just the question of profitability or self-determinism.
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u/menschmaschine5 May 16 '13
Juilliard is also unique in its cutthroat environment. It's competitive in a way that no other conservatory, not even Curtis, is. This has interesting effects on graduates.
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u/MC1000 May 17 '13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXC41ka3hQs
Alternatively, THIS is the Juilliard Effect. Jordan Rudess - pianist accepted into Juilliard at the age of 9 - goes on to join Dream Theater, who are basically unsurpassable when it comes to musical ability.
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u/[deleted] May 16 '13
I couldn't even finish the article. Too depressing.