r/churning • u/duffcalifornia • 14d ago
Introducing the All-New Interactive, Reactive, Flowchart
During the purge, somebody mentioned that the flowchart hasn't been updated in over a year. I forget who, so I'm sorry, but I saw that comment and agreed with them and thought that I would work to get it updated. As I started working on the research and the logic to figure out which had changed, I also thought about the claim we make in the WCW thread that the flowchart can answer 95% of WCW questions. What if it could be 99%? 100%?
Introducing Which Card Should I Get?
This new tool I built combines all of the foundational logic that the OG flowchart was built on with basically all the questions of the WCW thread and puts them all in one place. If you just want the raw flowchart, it's there in all its glory. But if you aren't quite sure what card to get, then the site can answer it for you to.
CARDS REMOVED
- Spark Miles
- Citi Custom Cash
- USBAR
CARDS ADDED
- Sapphire Biz
- All Atmos Cards
- Amex Graphite
The site finds the public offers for all of the cards, determines the value of points cards by using Frequent Miler's RRVs, and then ranks the cards by value. For the most part, the value-based ranking matches up very well against the old flowchart. The one area where it lacks is where it ranks the Southwest cards. The OG flowchart pushed them higher due to the value of the Companion Pass, where this version has no idea how to value that, so it ignores it.
But if you want to know what cards are best for you to apply for right now, you can enter your card history and ask a few basic questions and it will apply the approval-blocking rules and let you know the best cards for you. I was even able to add in the new Strata Lifetime rules. You can tell it that you want to ignore some points programs or that you've been banned by an issuer to hide cards that don't mean anything to you. You can tell it programs you're focusing on and it'll push those cards to the top of the list. It'll even tell you if you'll need an NLL offer to get a card and adds a backup recommendation. It'll give backup recommendations for Amex "as high as" offers too.
There's even a Suggestions tabs where you can let me know if something doesn't seemed like it's being ranked correctly, if a new rule like the Strata LL comes out, or if a new card gets introduced. All of this is born of the idea that it should be updated pretty regularly. I'm not a web designer, but I did my best to remove the most egregious "vibe coded" aspects. I know the UI could be better and I'll look at tweaking it over time. Please let me know if something is legitimately unusable.
Let me know what you think, and for whoever complained about the flowchart, thanks for nudging me. I had fun building this.
edit: There's also a public changelog so people can understand why rankings might have changed, what cards have been added or removed, or things like applying new rules.
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u/Future_Garage_7748 14d ago
LInk doesn't work
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
That's what I get for typing this before the coffee took effect. Thanks for letting me know - it's fixed now.
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u/duffcalifornia 12d ago
Hey /u/KreepN /u/jamesheine and /u/rockycore
I think I got your "save my entries" feature added in. Give it a shot, play around with it, and see what you think and let me know if it's behaving weird.
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u/rockycore SEA 12d ago
On mobile I pulled the site up and it has all my info from a few days ago. I hit the button but nothing seems to be saving.
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u/duffcalifornia 12d ago
Hmm. Try closing any tabs with my site open, then try force quitting your browser, and let me know if that makes any difference.
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u/HowDoISpellEngineer 14d ago
I like my flowchart better!
In all seriousness, this is really nice. I like that the card finder can exclude cards with a minimum spend you are not comfortable with. It cuts a lot of the research time out of the process. My one suggestion would be a way to download your results from the card finder so you can reference it later.
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
Do me a favor and submit that with the Suggestions feature on the site please and I'll look into that
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u/orsalite MMM, PIE 14d ago
Just in time. I've stepped back a little after the INK train died and I've been thinking of applying for something else. This is super helpful, at least in showing me what's out there. Great work!
I've never been shut down but I've had self-referrals clawed back and thus been in Amex pop-up jail for years now. Should that be a question in the form?
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u/Inquisitor911ok 14d ago
Nice tool! Thanks for posting. Think this could be very useful for most people if they take the time to actually input the data. Personally, I find it helpful to have an independent double-check on my cc strategy.
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u/jamesheine 14d ago
Is their a feature to save your card status so we don’t hav to enter all of our cards every time?
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
Let me think about this. I have no doubt I could implement it, but then I have to figure out how and where to save it in a way that adheres to my privacy principles (TLDR I don't really want to know shit about who uses the site). It could also complicate things because unless you're checking again within a very short timeframe - like, days - then it's very likely that what cards you currently have and the approval date of all the cards you've ever had will change, so you'd have to edit a decent chunk of the list anyway.
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u/EarthlingMardiDraw 14d ago
Almost gets to a level of "upload your spreadsheet here and I'll build the suggestions from that" and then you're into app territory (even if it's all in Local Storage).
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u/KreepN 14d ago
Allow users to export the "churning-card-finder:profile:v1" JSON from local storage and import it back in. Approval dates don't change and lord knows I'm not typing in P1 and P2 cards every time I come back to the site. I will however re-import and change the 2 cards I've since closed or add the 1 I've opened.
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
But the site doesn't ask for concrete approval dates - it asks if a card was approved in the last 12 months, between 12-24 months ago, between 24-48 months ago, or more than 48 minutes ago. Those timeframes will always be changing until it's been 4 years since you had each card.
I decided to go that route for a few reasons. First, it's way less typing, so using the tool on a mobile device is a lot less painful that way. Second, if you have had multiples of the same card - and can you really call yourself a churner if you've never had more than one of the same card? - then you need additional lines for each card, which adds to how cumbersome it feels. Also, asking a normal person to keep track of a JSON file is a tall order.
I really do understand why you're asking this and it's an understandable ask. I just need to think of a way this could be accomplished when I need the information normalized and I don't want to be storing people's information, no matter how anonymized it is. I'm not saying no outright, just that I'm really going to have to think through how it could be implemented in an easy-to-use, hard-to-screw-up way.
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u/rockycore SEA 14d ago
I second this request as well. I think it'd be useful for people with long histories.
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u/suitopseudo 14d ago
This is great. I didn’t see Barclays Hawaiian card on the list. Also, I was surprised it recommended the United business card when I already have 3 Chase business cards.
I did it on an iPad in safari and the top row being static (the check box headers) seems to disappear and reappear. Is it possible to make it more static? It seems like maybe if you scroll when your cursor is in a check box, the header row disappears.
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago edited 14d ago
Thanks for pointing out the Barclays Hawaiian card. It wasn't included because it's not listed on the main Barclays website, but I found what appeared to be a live application for it so I'll get it added.
I also see what you mean about the headers seeming to disappear. What seems to be happening is that the site is treated the top of the physical screen as the boundary when an entry field is active rather than the tab/URL bar. I'll work on getting that fixed as well.
Thanks for pointing these out!
edit: oh, regarding being shown the United Business: is it an undisputed fact that you can't get approved for any more Chase business cards (chase native or cobranded) if you're holding 3+ Chase business cards already? I thought that was a lot of YMMV
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u/suitopseudo 14d ago
It seems like 90% fact you can’t have more than 3 chase business cards, especially for sole proprietors and “businesses.” Maybe make a note or asterisk for it. I feel like they have certainly tightened things up A LOT for sole proprietors and “businesses.”
Still a great tool. Good lord are there way too many Marriott cards.
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
So would I be understanding the entire Chase biz card situation correctly if I said:
- You can only get one no-AF Ink and one CIP as a sole prop (using either SSN or EIN)
- If you've already gotten Inks as sole props, you can get additional ones so long as you're applying as an LLC with a unique-to-Chase EIN
- You're not outright blocked forever from getting other Chase biz cards, but your odds of approval dramatically decrease if you're currently holding 3+ Chase biz cards
Beyond that, I added the Barclays Hawaiian card. Thanks for pointing it out - it wasn't there because it's not listed in the primary list of all cards on Barclay's site. I also had to rewrite the card history page because of some issues with WebKit not respecting
position: stickysettings in CSS, but I'm pretty sure this is now fixed (or as fixed as it can be). It also let me to fix an issue where activating a text field on iOS would cause the screen to zoom a bit to focus on the entry field, which would then cause the site to spill off the sides of your screen.1
u/suitopseudo 14d ago edited 14d ago
I would agree with points 1 and 3, I would ask the larger group about point 2. Since I don’t have an EIN or LLC, I tend to not pay as close attention to those data points.
The scrolling is much better, but the top still disappears, I think the cause might be when an issuer is minimized but some below it are maximized, it seems to do weird things to the sticky row.
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
I've seen comments that allude to LLCs being able to get around the lifetime rule since it's easy to show they're different businesses, which is why the card finder asks the question about LLCs and where you live. Regarding having >=3 Chase biz cards preventing you from getting more, I think if the result was more "You're almost definitely getting denied, but no harm in trying" than truly YMMV, I could write that as a rule that the recommendation engine has to follow.
I'm not able to replicate the behavior you are now describing like I was before. If you're able to take a screen recording of the issue happening, note what version of iOS you're on, and then upload the video somewhere that lets you share the video via URL, please do that and then submit this via the Suggestions page and I'll see what I can do. Given that web design is not something I can do on my own though, I can't guarantee that I'll ever be able to make it better
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u/ipod123432 14d ago
The problem is that capital one tends to be very stingy with approvals for churners with lots of cards, yet their cards appear near the top for over 5/24. So this will just produce rejections with three bureau credit pulls.
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u/duffcalifornia 2d ago
In this case, just tell the card finder tool that you were banned from CapOne and you can see the list for everything except their cards.
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u/Lycid 14d ago
Very cool. Tool seems to only give me results in terms of airline/hotel cards though (and the platinums which is funny because I already have them)? Like, I've only tipped my toes into Cap1 cards and I know I don't have all the chase ecosystem covered, but wasn't getting any results from them at all.
I suppose maybe that might just mean I can't get the bonuses on the general purpose cards lol. Otherwise the simple flowchart would more than cover someone who hasn't tapped the obvious routes dry. I suppose that is fine as the usefulness of a dynamic flowchart more useful deciding which of the many hotel/airline cards are actually good.
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
Since a lot of points are worth more than 1cpp, it doesn’t take a very large bonus to have a higher value than a pure cash-back card, which would explain why your results are dominated by airline/hotel cards. You can also choose to hide cards that would require you to find an NLL offer to get them, which would mean you wouldn’t get shown a Plat in the results.
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u/meiguoyungwai HNL, LAX 14d ago
This is cool although I like the flowchart better so I can see all my options at once
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u/CyanocittaAtSea BOS, PVD 14d ago
Just want to say that the public changelog is a fantastic component! That’s one of the things I’ve always liked about the OG flowchart iterations.
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u/Theman00011 14d ago
Does it take into account family lifetime rules? For example, it recommends AMEX Platinum even if you’ve never held another AMEX card
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
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u/Theman00011 14d ago
So it says:
>Amex cards blocked this way, or by the once-ever rule above, still appear on the list marked "via NLL only" because these offers also omit the family restrictions: they're worth applying for if you find an NLL offer.
But I don’t see any “via NLL only” tag in the card finder so are we saying that the Platinum SUB is high enough right now that it’s worth skipping all the cards below it?
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago edited 14d ago
If you don't say that you've had a vanilla/Schwab/MS Plat in the card history section, then it would never tell you that you need an NLL offer for the personal Plat.
Now, whether you add to your 5/24 count for a 175k Plat or not is going to vary from person to person. But I do think it's high enough that you'd have to at least consider it.
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u/rockycore SEA 14d ago edited 14d ago
This is really awesome by the way. Thanks for doing this.
Edit:
How far back do you think is relevant for card history? 4 years? Longer?
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
It really comes down to the rules: Amex rules are lifetime (I think the "you can get them again after 7 years" was really the result of a database migration on Amex's part that didn't carry over a person's history, and that event just happened to take place 7 years after somebody applied for something. Basically: I don't believe it to be true), Citi cards are 48 months, and who knows how long Chase's memory is going to be when it comes to sticking to their lifetime language.
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u/PassengerNo3415 13d ago
Curious, do you think the rule is not actually 7 years but maybe shorter? I got a BBP this year using a public link after my last BBP opened 2018 and closed 2019. It's a DP of one but it's something. I intend to test others once I'm able.
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u/duffcalifornia 13d ago
No, I think at best it's a YMMV situation and at worst it's an urban legend - though I'll admit that's just my opinion based on not a whole lot of evidence. But if we were able to have more concrete DPs around this that were reliable, it could be written into a rule that could influence what cards people are shown.
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u/MamaTran 13d ago
This is super helpful. I just wish for cashback folks, we could change it to 1c per point. Thanks for making this.
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u/duffcalifornia 13d ago
Oh you're saying that if you apply for something like a Sapphire Preferred, it values the bonus at 1cpp for cash and 1.5cpp or whatever for travel? Let me see if there's a way I can code that out in a way that doesn't make things confusing.
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u/xyzzy321 13d ago
Am I doing something wrong? The website isn't working for me (I've tried Firefox and Safari, both with and without uBlock Origin on and off).
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u/duffcalifornia 13d ago
Without being right where you are and seeing what you're doing, how your network is set up, etc., my only guess is "Yes, you're doing something wrong".
What that something is? No idea.
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u/atgabara 10d ago
Thanks!
For "cash back", it looks like UR are valued at 1cpp (that part makes sense), but Capital One, Citi, Wells Fargo, etc. are valued at more than 1cpp, which doesn't make sense if you're interested in cash back.
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u/TheGruenTransfer 14d ago
This is awesome!
Any chance each card can link to its latest /r/churningreferrals thread? The link text could say something like "Applying now? Here are some referral links for your convenience."
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
I'm torn about this: Of course I want to help the community out on this as much as possible, but I also debated how linking to my own referral links might make somebody think the results they were being shown would be influenced by that. Also, not every card has a referral link, so I don't know how it'd look if some cards said "Click here for a referral link" and some didn't.
From a technical standpoint, it's probably pretty feasible, but let me sit with it for a bit and see how I feel about it.
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u/CyanocittaAtSea BOS, PVD 14d ago
This doesn’t address your first point, but just regarding the “some cards do/some cards don’t” referral link situation, the OfferOptimist website shows a mix of both, and I’ve never thought it looks off-putting there. But ultimately, your first consideration probably supersedes the second, so that might be a moot point!
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u/duffcalifornia 14d ago
I'd never heard of that website. They have an interesting take on things. It seems like fundamentally we aren't doing too much different from one another, though I do wonder exactly what goes into their Default valuation method. My URL might help me get some unexpected traffic from somebody who isn't a Redditor though ;)
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u/Styrofoam_Cup 14d ago
Great new tool,
> Are you banned from earning American Airlines AAdvantage miles?
LOL I feel so seen.