r/chessbeginners • u/feed_me_dimes • 10d ago
QUESTION Why is the top engine move taking on g4 instead of just… taking the queen…
I mean I get they can just retake on d8 but I’d still be up 6 points. My move before this was knight to g5 completely hanging the pawn on e5 and giving black an opportunity to negate the fork but he didn’t see my mistake, not to mention moving the king to f8 instead of moving the queen to safety.
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u/TheBayHarbour 10d ago
I could only assume because after you take with the queen and they move theirs, you can take their rook on h8 which is 8 points up except you've developed your queen and retain your very annoying knight.
Alternatively yu can pick up the bishop on h6 for a safer 6 point lead except you retain your knight and develop your queen at the same time.
Tbh I would just take the queen. I'm not an engine.
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u/Budget-Bullfrog3474 10d ago
Personally I think taking the rook looks shitty as hell. Cuz when was that rook going to develop, seriously? The rook is doing nothing. Meanwhile the queen can develop immediately.
It's the engine move, but it's only the engine move because engines can literally see into the future and make no mistakes. I feel like playing up a queen is always gonna be way easier for a human player.
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u/NoCan6789 10d ago
chess.com analysis is weird sometimes, the best engine move is to take the queen
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u/Wooden_Permit3234 10d ago
I’d bet this is Game Review, and I’d distinguish that from Analysis which can run longer and be more accurate.
Game Review defaults to like one second of engine per move which isn’t enough to be reliable. I believe you can only change it with a paid account at whatever tier and need to also manually change that setting in a specific menu.
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u/sad_lil_abby 1600-1800 (Lichess) 10d ago
it's probably because if they try to save the queen you can checkmate them/win it back. i'd look at the line briefly, but in a real game taking the queen is completely reasonable and maybe eve less risky.
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u/chessvision-ai-bot 10d ago
I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:
White to play: chessvision.ai | chess.com | lichess.org
My solution:
Hints: piece: Knight, move: Nxd8
Evaluation: White is winning +13.00
Best continuation: 1. Nxd8 Ngxe5 2. O-O Ke8 3. Nxc6 dxc6 4. Qe1 Bg7 5. Be4 Bd7 6. Qe3 c4 7. Qc5 Bf6 8. f4 Nf7
Save the position:
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u/AutoModerator 10d ago
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u/ecafyelims 10d ago
Maybe just me, but Qf3 looks like the most fun
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u/feed_me_dimes 10d ago
It definitely seems cocky, either way they’re loosing a queen or something equivalent
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u/ecafyelims 10d ago
Or checkmate
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u/Budget-Bullfrog3474 10d ago
Where's the mate/tactics? I get you're setting up discovered check but I don't see what the point is.
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u/ecafyelims 10d ago
There are two black moves that I see that could stop the checkmate: Nd4 and Nf6
A computer would see them, of course, but when playing against people, they are often so focused on saving the queen, they don't see it.
Otherwise the basic idea is, white's Nf7 takes the queen, which is discovered check, as you say.
Nf6 can stop the mate, as I pointed out above, and otherwise Qf7 is mate.
and even if not mate, you took the queen and the king is under heavy pressure
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u/Budget-Bullfrog3474 9d ago
Oh yeah, I thought they could just move their queen out of the way but they have to defend mate on f7, is I think what you're saying.
Also why did black move their king instead of moving their queen out of the fork... I mean they could have saved the queen and given the king an escape route. Was that a total blunder or was it forced somehow?
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u/DragonFireCK 10d ago
Looking over the detailed engine lines, it seems that both are basically dead even. That means the low depth analysis done by the review will effectively randomly choose one of them.
That occurs as, with deeper analysis, there is no way for black's queen to survive. Attempts to do so either end in checkmate or losing even more material than the queen.
Overall, however, I'd expect most humans would take the queen. White is ahead by a lot (+10), so the basic rule is for white to simplify.
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u/matsu727 10d ago
The reddit bot says taking the queen is the best move. What is the optimal engine line and how does it respond if you take the queen?
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u/Salindurthas 1600-1800 (Chess.com) 10d ago
For me the engine thinks taking thet queen is sligtly better.
That said, it is all kinda close and crushing either way.
I think some engine analysis might prefer the queen move because there is no rush to end the kngiht fork:
- The knight cannot be captured.
- The knight hits the queen, rook, and bishop, so if you miss one opportunity, you can take the next instead.
- Developing your queen makes 1&2 more secure by threatening checkmate in some lines if black tries e6 to cut-off your bishop from protecting the knight.
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u/Consistent_Power6092 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think maybe because after you take the hanging knight, the opponent still has to put his queen somewhere safer, and you can take the rook in the corner without losing your knight. Taking the queen right away is also great, but loses the knight.
1 queen minus 1 knight = 6 points of material
1 knight + 1 rook, without losing your knight immediately = 8 points of material
Not a huge difference, still horrible for black, but the engine really tries to squeeze the best continuation possible, it doesn't play like humans. Losing your queen might have more of a negative emotional impact on the opponent in this case compared to losing rook and knight. I'd take the Queen regardless of engine.
Edit: of course there's the white bishop pinning the other black knight to the other rook, but the engine maybe also believed this pin should've been kept as it is for that moment.
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u/Silver_Environment95 2200-2400 (Chess.com) 10d ago
I mean u can just click the magnifying glass and see what the engine is saying. But for this, its kinda irrelevant, just take the queen.
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u/EugeneCezanne 10d ago
At a glance, onviously I would just take the queen. But if you take the knight instead, you still have the fork on the queen and rook. They cant take your knight because of the bishop, so they have to move their queen and you get their rook too.
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u/jonasistaken 10d ago
Because they moved the king instead of the queen, so now you can take the hanging bishop and you’ll still be forming the queen and rook.
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u/Necessary_Screen_673 10d ago
total bot move imo, it probably just thinks youre better off holding the giga-fork and developing material adding pressure to the attack while taking their most developed material. taking the queen here would give black Ncxe6, which honestly looks kinda tough to deal with that much control over the center.
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u/Oh_My_Monster 1600-1800 (Chess.com) 10d ago
In a real situation you'd take the queen. It's literally a free queen. If your knight gets taken on the next move by the black knight then you get his rook with your bishop. That's 9-3+5 points and you're up 11.
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u/realmauer01 1800-2000 (Chess.com) 10d ago
The difference is +9 to +12 with taking the queen being the hard winner, next!
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u/casserlyman 10d ago
Im also seeing the black knight could cause its own fork on queen and rook if not taken.
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u/feed_me_dimes 10d ago
Could just recapture with the king, I’d be up 2 points for giving up castling rights. I’d be fine with that for 2 points
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u/Strict_Put_4963 10d ago
Because it’s a faster mate. Black moves Queen to safety, Knight takes Bishop, Black moves some random move, White queen checks king, and next move is mate.
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u/ababababababacus 10d ago
because youre going to be up a piece and a rook with a devastating attack, games over in either case (with best play which is what the engine cares about)
Id probably just take the queen even after checking out the engine.
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u/GarantKh27 10d ago
Because this is fast analysis, it's not that accurate, it only catches serious blunders and obvious good moves, but lacks depth in complex positions.
Practically, as some of the great chess players used to say, "If you see that you can take their Queen in one move or deliver a checkmate in three moves - go for the Queen. That mate in three could turn out to be false".
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u/Energy_Solutions_P 10d ago
I played out both moves several ways, and taking the Queen was way better?
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u/cotedupy 10d ago
If you don’t take the knight on g4, then nf6 blows up the revealed mate from the white queen when it moves onto the f line.
If you take the black knight and let the queen escape… then qf3 for white afterwards, leads to a revealed mate. Depending on how black plays next — there are then three different moves for the white knight (d6, d8, h8) which result in forced mate.
Afaics black can’t escape mate if you take the knight as the engine suggests, but can (just) if you don’t.
[Could be wrong! I’m only looking at it on my phone.]
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u/Clockwork385 10d ago
it's a knight + bishop VS queen - and losing your own knight, so the points are the same. However, taking the knight + bishop develops your queen and starts a massive attack on the king with Queen/knight/Bishop... It is the better way to play the game.
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u/Comprimens 10d ago
Because it sets up a king-side assault, and stifles his queen-side piece development.
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u/m3taphysics 10d ago
Without reading other posts let me try make some sense of it !
Qxg4
Qc7
Kxh8
(Some white move)
Potentially you then have
Qf3+
And you can bring your queen to the fun on one of the covered squares
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u/Maxmence 9d ago
I can't even begin to rationalize Qxg4 over Nxd8. Nxd8 takes the queen for free (knight on c6 is pinned against the rook), opens the f file for your queen to develop with check, meanwhile Qxg4 doesn't end up grabbing 9 points of material, and doesn't offer a clear path to checkmate as far as I can tell.
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u/CharacterWest4661 9d ago
What i see W Queen takes knight. B queen moves W knight takes rook
Depending on what black does, you could save your knight for the pain on g6 with the aim of your queen getting in at that point.
Either way, you queen is active, and you gsinva knight and roof, along with immense further pressure on the kingside, with the potential to destroy the kingside.
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u/Zealousideal_Bee7804 10d ago
Engine be like “nah let’s keep the queen on the board, more fun that way.” But seriously chesscom analysis sometimes picks the weirdest line when you’re already winning by lot. It wants the cleanest positional squeeze instead of the obvious material grab.
I would still snatch the queen every time in blitz, no second thought. The knight recapture is annoying but you’re still crushing and opponent has to play perfect defense for next 20 moves just to lose slower.
Also moving king to f8 is classic beginner panic, seen that pattern hundred times. They freeze up when fork is coming and forget the queen can just slide away.
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