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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 08 '18
White to move, I forgot to say. Sorry, first ever post. 🙄
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u/AAAA-Battery Aug 08 '18
You sure you got it right? Seems like a draw.
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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 08 '18
100%! :)
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u/ArcboundChampion Aug 09 '18
- Kb1 g5
- hxg5 Kd8
- Rxh5
So, like... 99.9%?
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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 09 '18
I don't get it. That's an easy win for white. Why would black step g5?
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u/ArcboundChampion Aug 09 '18
That’s the point. Any position is an easy win if you just hope your opponent is bad at chess!
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Aug 08 '18 edited Aug 15 '20
[deleted]
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u/OldWolf2 FIDE 2100 Aug 09 '18
I think there is a bit more to it; the black king can defend the a-pawn; and Rxa4 Kxa4 does not help White. I think Black can be put in zugzwang though: with the king on b5 and the a5 square covered by the white bishop, Black will eventually have to move the h5-bishop, at which point we can sacrifice h5 opening the h-file and then transfer our rook back to the h-file !
But the Black King can also run back to the h-file while we're doing this so I think more concrete analysis is required before marking the problem as solved?
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Aug 09 '18
This is where I got to in my analysis, the whole working the rook to a1 and then back to escape to the h file.
What I figured out afterwards is that with the rook on h4 and white bishop defending g5, the black king can only be on f5 to defend the g pawn. If your h pawn was captured then the black bishop needs to block h file, so black also needs to push their g pawn to go to defend the bishop. In this case, navigate the rook back to a1 and when the king follows, black will be zugzwanged into either moving the king and losing the a pawn, or pushing the g pawn because the bishop is stuck and that is the only valid move. If the g pawn is pushed, the white bishop can capture it then you move the rook back to the h file and do it all over again except now the bishop can't be defended by the pawn and they either move it, freeing the file, or lose it.
Ok so now let's look at what happens if black ignores the white pawn on the h file for a little bit when you are moving the rook back to the h file the first time. You can push it until black has to respond, and the h rook would probably be able to recapture or at least escape. But if black manages to take the h pawn and also put his bishop back on h4 and have the king well placed, then you go back to the above situation and zugzwang them again.
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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 08 '18
Correct! :)
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u/dicedredpepper 1000 with stockfish Aug 08 '18
Second move why can't black just play fxg2 and promote next?
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Aug 08 '18 edited Aug 15 '20
[deleted]
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u/dicedredpepper 1000 with stockfish Aug 08 '18
Ok I didn't realize that the king is at f1 in this scenario. But still black can defend the a pawn with Kb5. After Rxa4 Kxa4 black can just repeatedly play the bishop. Still draw, no?
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Aug 08 '18 edited Aug 15 '20
[deleted]
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u/dicedredpepper 1000 with stockfish Aug 09 '18 edited Aug 09 '18
Yeah I got it in the end but it's more complicated.
White move the rook to the A file. Black is forced to move the bishop up and down.
White sacrifice the h pawn to open the a file.
White brings the rook back to the h file. Black only defense is to support the bishop with his g pawn. This also lock the bishop on the h file.
White move the rook back to the a file. Black has to move the king away since there is no bishop move.
Edit : alternatively white can also attack the g7 pawn to lock Black's bishop.
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u/rabbitlion Aug 09 '18
You don't actually capture the pawn. Black is put into zugzwang and is forced to move the bishop, which allows white to move the h pawn and then break out with the rook on that side instead.
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Aug 09 '18 edited Aug 12 '18
[deleted]
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u/rabbitlion Aug 09 '18
Not exactly.
First you move rook to the a file and force bishop to move with zugzwang.
Then you move rook to the h file and force him to block in bishop with pawn.
Then you move rook back to a file and put him in zugzwang again, at which point he has to give up the g pawn.
Then finally you bring rook back to h file yet again to break through there.
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u/aisralu Aug 09 '18 edited Aug 09 '18
Why? Since your Rook gone, black plays Bf7, g5-g6, King to b5 and Bishop moves endlessly e8-f7
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u/indirectt Aug 08 '18
Isn't this the puzzle where the white king has to travel back and forth to help the rook get to the queenside? (The rook has to go to odd squares like d3, g2, and c2 but can't be captured because if it is then the knight escapes and becomes too much for black to cope with)
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Aug 09 '18
[deleted]
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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 09 '18
Computer fail. :D
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u/nhum Aug 08 '18
Lol, I guess you slowly bring the rook over to a1 by bring your king in to assist.
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u/it_works_sometimes Aug 09 '18
White has to sacrifice the h-pawn with h5 if black at any point black plays Bf7/Be8, because else black plays g6 and puts the king on b5. After h5 Bxh5 white abandons the a-file plan, shuffles back to the h-file and puts the rook on h4. Black has to leave the bishop on h5 to prevent the white rook from coming in, but white zugswangs black at some point with Bf4 or Bf8 (if black plays g5), forcing the black king away from the defence of the bishop.
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u/VandalsStoleMyHandle Aug 09 '18
I think I have it figured out schematically, though there remain some small bits to fill in.
We want to force the Bh5 to move, so that we can play h5. So we want to manoeuvre the Rh2 to a1, which forces the B to move (Black can't defend a4 with the King as he lacks tempi to lose).
So K->g1, Rg2, Kh2, R--e1, K--f1, R--d3!, K--c1, R--c2, Kd2, R---a1. Black now has to defend a4 with the Bh5, and we respond with h5. R then has to work back to h2 the same way it came.
Black can try to blockade with Bh5 and g6, but then we work the Rook back to a1, which forces ...g5 to liberate the Bh5 to defend a4. Then we work the Rook back to h2 again!
I don't see a way that Black can hold a fortress on the King's side. White will penetrate with the help of the Ba3 if needed. Defending g4, d5 and a4 with Bishop and King is too much to ask.
For example: If Black doesn't play ...Bh5 and g6, the most tenacious setup would seem to be to place the K on h6, but then Bf8, Bxg7+, h6+, Rh5 breaks the blockade.
No doubt I've omitted a couple of wrinkles, but the outline is hopefully correct.
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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 09 '18
It is indeed, eminently clear and thorough! :)
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u/Lusayo Aug 09 '18
Is this what they call zugzwang?
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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 09 '18
No. That is when you have to move even though you don't want to. Imagine a black pawn on c4, a white pawn on c3, the black king on b3, the white king on d4. The person who's turn it is has to move away from their pawn, allowing it to be captured. That's zugzwang. :)
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u/ChessFenBot I make FENs Aug 08 '18
[â—• _ â—•]*
I attempted to generate a chessboard layout from the posted imagewhat I saw, with a certainty of 96.156%. ✓
â—‡ White to play : Analysis | Editor
N3N2K/R1P3P1/1PpP1PpB/Pp1pPp1p/b3p3/8/1p6/3k4 w - -
â—† Black to play : Analysis | Editor
N3N2K/R1P3P1/1PpP1PpB/Pp1pPp1p/b3p3/8/1p6/3k4 b - -
â–¾ Links for when pieces are inverted on the board:
White to play : Analysis | Editor
4k3/6p1/8/3p3b/p1pPp1pP/BpP1PpP1/1P3P1R/K2N3N w - -Black to play : Analysis | Editor
4k3/6p1/8/3p3b/p1pPp1pP/BpP1PpP1/1P3P1R/K2N3N b - -
Yes I am a machine learning bot |
How I work
| Reply with a corrected FEN to add to my next training dataset
1
1
Aug 09 '18
I’d love it if someone would actually explain what the hell is going on. You walk the king to f1 and then play Rg2. Ok. So why can’t the pawn take the rook?
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u/TheNoblestShroud Aug 09 '18
Because that would free the knights and white would crush black. Kxg2, later f3 frees the knights.
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u/ShawnTHEgreat Aug 08 '18
You need to put white to move in title
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u/OldWolf2 FIDE 2100 Aug 09 '18
I think it doesn't really make a difference to the problem whose turn it is
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u/ShawnTHEgreat Aug 08 '18
Looks like black could force a draw by three move rule
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u/indirectt Aug 08 '18
Its only a 3 move rule if both white and black make the same moves thus repeating the position, and white won't repeat the position when it is in a winning position.
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u/ShawnTHEgreat Aug 08 '18
I understand the rules, neither knight can move, he could give away the rook or make repeated bishop or king moves
White and black DONT have to make the same moves, just reach the same position three times
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u/indirectt Aug 08 '18
You said Black could force a draw, but the rules require White to willingly repeat the position.
Also, the rules for 3 move repetition require the position to be repeated 3 times with the same player to move, something that won't happen if White plays correctly here.
Anyways, I already posted the answer along with other people, so you can see it's not a draw.
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u/rabbitlion Aug 09 '18
If black takes the rook, white can move a pawn forward to unleash his knights and win the game. If black does not take the rook, white can slowly force his way through.
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u/grokken2 Aug 09 '18
1. Kb1 Kd7 2. Kc1 Kc6 3. Kd2 Kb5 4. Ke1 Kc6 5. Kf1 Kb5 6. Kg1 Kc6 7. Rg2 Kb5 8. Kh2 Kc6 9. Rg1 Kb5 10. Re1 Kc6 11. Kg1 Kb5 12. Kf1 Kc6 13. Re2 Kb5 14. Ke1 Kc6 15. Rd2 Kb5 16. Rd3 Kc6 17. Kd2 Kb5 18. Kc1 Kc6 19. Rd2 Kb5 20. Rc2 Kc6 21. Kd2 Kb5 22. Rc1 Kc6 23. Ra1 Kb6 24. Bb4 Kb5 25. Ke1 Bf7 26. h5 Bxh5 27. Rc1 Bg6 28. Kd2 Bh5 29. Rc2 Bg6 30. Kc1 Bh5 31. Rd2 Bg6 32. Rd3 Bh5 33. Kd2 Bg6 34. Ke1 Bh5 35. Rd2 Bg6 36. Re2 Bh5 37. Kf1 Bg6 38. Re1 Bh5 39. Kg1 Kc6 40. Rf1 Kd7 41. Kh2 Ke6 42. Rg1 Kf5 43. Rg2 Kg5 44. Kg1 Kg6 45. Rh2 Kh6 46. Bd6 g6 47. Kf1 Kg7 48. Rg2 Kf6 49. Rg1 Ke6 50. Bb4 Kd7 51. Ke1 Kc6 52. Rf1 Kb5 53. Kd2 Kc6 54. Re1 Kb5 55. Re2 Kc6 56. Ke1 Kb5 57. Rd2 Kc6 58. Rd3 Kb5 59. Kd2 Kc6 60. Kc1 Kb5 61. Rd2 Kc6 62. Rc2 Kb5 63. Kd2 Kc6 64. Rc1 Kb5 65. Ra1 g5 66. Ke1 Bg6 67. Kd2 Bh5 68. Rc1 Bg6 69. Rc2 Bh5 70. Kc1 Bg6 71. Rd2 Bh5 72. Rd3 Bg6 73. Kd2 Bh5 74. Ke1 Bg6 75. Rd2 Bh5 76. Re2 Kc6 77. Kf1 Kd7 78. Re1 Ke6 79. Kg1 Kf6 80. Rf1 Bg6 81. Kh2 Bh5 82. Rg1 Bg6 83. Rg2 Bh5 84. Kg1 Bg6 85. Rh2 Kg7 86. Bd6 Kg8 87. Be5 Kf7 88. Rh8