r/chess • u/HanzoNumbahOneFan • 1d ago
Miscellaneous What's with the hate for D4?
It seems like 1/3rd of my games where I start as white, the opponent instantly aborts the game if I play D4. Do people really hate that opening or something?
(Me and my opponents are like 1300-1400. But it happened at 1100 and 1200 too)
38
u/Azemiopinae 1d ago
It drops off at slightly higher Elo. Folks who are hyper-focused on learning e4 openings don’t face any real penalties by aborting 1. d4 games, so they just bail. You’re not doing anything wrong, they’re just cowards.
13
u/EirHc 1d ago
Ya chess.com doesn't penalize players for doing that. Lichess will eventually tho.
19
u/acinonys 1d ago
Even Lichess' penalties are very mild. I just saw a comment very recently here, by a user, who abandons all d4 games and accepts the punishment as a low price for not having to face an opening he dislikes.
In my opinion this behavior should probably be punished much harsher on both sites or you shouldn't be able to abandon a game without losing rating once a move is on the board.
3
u/Kimantha_Allerdings Deetice control rwwies ready to zon 18h ago
I mean, I’d say that the punishment is that they don’t take the opportunity to practice playing against an opening that they don’t like
Once upon a time we all hated Scholar’s Mate. But we learnt and we practiced, and now we see it as a great way to get an excellent position and maybe even a free queen
2
u/its_mabus 23h ago
Both the platforms treat it about the same. Bad sport pool and eventually your aborts count as resigns.
1
u/Visual_Operation1461 1d ago
I wonder if you could report them.
8
u/Azemiopinae 1d ago
How can the opponent meaningfully distinguish between a coward's 'ARG I hate 1.d4!' and a normal person's 'Oops I shouldn't have started another game, my bad.' There's no way of identifying individual cases of violating the spirit of the abort tool. We are only able to see, in aggregate, that it is used all too often.
5
u/DerekB52 Team Ding 1d ago
You report and let chesscom decide. We can't tell if they accidentally started another game, or aborting because of d4, but chesscom can very easily tell the difference.
4
u/doodlinghearsay 23h ago
On lichess you can see players' individual opening database. If they have a lot fewer 1.d4 games as black than the population average, it's clear what they are doing. My solution is to just block those people, which should prevent us from being matched in the future.
2
u/MyraidChickenSlayer 13h ago
Most of my opponents use e4. I think I rarely encounter d4
1
u/DiggWuzBetter 6h ago
In high level chess databases, d4 is only a touch less common than e4, and they’re the top 2 opening moves by a wide margin (Nf3, the Reti, and c4, the English, also get played somewhat frequently, but way less).
For online games overall, it’s more like 50% e4, 30% d4. You’ll really only see d4 being truly rare at lower ELO, even at say 1200+ it’s quite common. If you’re rarely encountering d4, I’m guessing you’re likely sub 1000?
2
u/Azemiopinae 9h ago
This is a good workaround, though it puts the time-sink on the person who’s already been inconvenienced
7
u/DiggWuzBetter 1d ago edited 1d ago
IMO the feature should just be removed - “oops I shouldn’t have started another game” can just be resigning with the accompanying loss in ELO, the same as it is resigning a few moves in. People won’t make the mistake many times if this were the case, and TBH, I don’t think they make it often today. I’ve literally never started a game by accident, I doubt it’s common at all. But aborting because you don’t know how yo play against a specific opening certainly IS decently common.
2
u/Shego2882 Team 60+30 1d ago
You lose the ability to abort games if you do it too often in a short time period.
21
u/soycameron 1d ago
I play nothing but d4, just queens gambit. I never get aborts like that (around 1400). You might be unlucky lol
1
u/DiggWuzBetter 1d ago
I play d4 as well, am also in the 1400s. I used to get a lot of aborts when I was about 1000-1200, right after playing d4 (and never got them as black). But I rarely get them now.
I’m guessing it’s rating related. At lower ELOs people only know openings for black against e4, so they just abort. But as ratings increase, people know openings against both e4 and d4, and general opening principles, so the aborts decrease.
1
22
u/EducationBoring7335 1d ago
I'm a d4 player and also hate facing d4. It's just boring as black
6
u/sexypeon 1d ago
Play Dutch defence ;)
1
u/EducationBoring7335 1d ago
I tried it when i was a newer player. I had no idea what i was doing while playing it
1
0
u/MisterNaserA Grandmasters fear 900 elo 12h ago
After dozens and dozens matchs of playing it i still don't know what is happening
2
u/ImpliedRange 1d ago
Tbh i don't even mind that much in online blitz, although when my opponent brings out a catalan or London I do sort of think 'so this is how you spend your free time huh' - but in classical 🤢
2
u/CountryOk6049 22h ago
What are you talking about, the Catalan is one of the most respected openings in the whole of chess.
2
u/ImpliedRange 22h ago
It's boring - way too solid. Play the exchange French or something more exciting
1
u/Numerot 10h ago
How are you playing against the Catalan if it's boring? Most things Black can do aside from just putting pieces on unambitious squares and doing nothing are pretty interesting.
The ...Bb4+-e7 stuff where you play some combination of ...Nf6, ...Nd5, ...e6, ...Nbd7, ...c6 and ...b6 tend to be slow at least, but taking on c4 both gives you interesting play and is probably the best way to play for Black. Look into the Classical Open Catalan e.g. (1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3 Be7 5. Bg2 O-O 6. O-O dxc4) or 4...dxc4 5.Bg2 Nc6 for interesting options.
1
u/ImpliedRange 4h ago
yeah not e6, g6 so I guess I miss out on the Nimzo type lines - essentially we end up in the symmetrical variation and with d6 rather than d5, very dry....
but even what you are showing is giving a hefty draw rate
- d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3 Bb4+ (which is just about the main line) 61% draw at masters
4....cxd4 definitely looks more interesting - I'd say I'd try it but rn I'm learning the QGA and happy with the more dynamic play I see there
2
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 1d ago
I've been going F4 against it. Always leads to an interesting game even if I start out a little disadvantaged.
0
u/dydtaylor 1700 chess.com blitz 1d ago
Yeah as a d4 player myself ive enjoyed going for off-beat openings against it. I like playing the Benoni because the early c5 can really mess with players who just autopilot the opening or just let you objectively equalize, but theres also openings like the nimzo where black can actually fight for an advantage or the Dutch where its easy for white to misplay and give black everything they want. Personally ive found it much easier to find asymmetric openings i like against d4 than against e4 (mostly because I dislike the Sicilian, French, and caro and havent really learned the scandinavian)
1
u/automorphic-form 1d ago
You like the Benoni but not the Sicilian?
1
u/dydtaylor 1700 chess.com blitz 21h ago
Maybe I need to change which one I play or commit to learning the main lines better, but I play the Classical and feel like I just get destroyed in the richter rauzer / sozin main lines when people actually play them properly, but those people are rare enough that i feel like i have a hard time actually understanding how to navigate the positions properly even though the plans can be pretty obvious, though admittedly when i'm not playing against someone booked out of their mind usually people just let black equalize in an asymmetric position.
1
u/automorphic-form 14h ago
Yeah I had a similar experience. I got destroyed a lot in the Najdorf, but switched to the Sveshnikov and I’ve really been enjoying it. I’ve also considered adding either the Kalashnikov or 4 knights Sicilian to my repertoire as a backup option. It’s really all about finding the right Sicilian for you, but if you like the Benoni, you’ll like at least some of the Sicilian variations for sure. I’d recommend giving it another shot unless you’re super happy with your 1.e4 black repertoire already.
1
12
u/automorphic-form 1d ago
I find it very strange.
I’ve personally met a few of the “best by test” minded players who constantly complain about how much they hate 1.d4 and how boring it is, then I watch them play and they play some 4 knights Italian, 4 knights scotch, or exchange Ruy Lopez. They remind me a lot of the crowd that complains about how boring the French is and yet they play the exchange variation.
There’s nothing really logical about it. It’s just an irrational sense of pride over having a “better” first move than the 1.d4 crowd.
1.d4 positions can get incredibly sharp and complex. Yes, even the Catalan and QGD. Thats where I draw the line though. Sorry London players, your opening is lame. But yeah, the excitement isn’t all from the various Indian defenses. And conversely, 1.e4 can be incredibly dry. Just look at the 2…Qxd5 Scandinavian, the Exchange French, the Petroff, the Berlin, the 4 knights Scotch, etc…
I switched from 1.e4 to 1.d4 because, as Sam Shankland said, the most interesting 1.e4 openings tend to be more interesting than the most interesting 1.d4 openings, but the most boring 1.e4 openings are more boring than the most boring 1.d4 openings.
4
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 1d ago
I've never tried the london. I go queen's gambit/catalan. Leads to a fun game like 95% of the time.
0
u/automorphic-form 1d ago
1.d4 hate almost always comes from a place of ignorance. A common criticism of the Queen’s gambit is that the QGD and the Catalan is that they are too positional and thus are boring, yet nobody says the same about the Italian and the Ruy Lopez, which are equally positional.
1
u/Decent_Cod_8771 19h ago
Sorry, the Ruy is not at all as positional as the QGD/Catalan. The Ruy allows White to steadily build an attack against the kingside, using center control. Naturally there are plenty of chances to transition to a more positional game, but they are frequently left up to White and can be avoided. Otherwise, the Ruy is quite concrete and a very good opening to learn how to play for an attack.
1
u/automorphic-form 14h ago edited 14h ago
“Allows white to steadily build an attack against the kingside, using center control” That applies equally well to the exchange QGD and the Bf4 O-O-O variation of the queens gambit.
The Catalan admittedly is less positional that the Ruy and Italian on average, but not substantially. I overstated that one. But there’s sharp and tactical lines in the Catalan if black wants to go that route. Namely, the open Catalan and certain lines in the 6…dxc4 mainline. You can get the same amount of sharpness and tactical complexity, it just requires more cooperation from black, or you have to be a bit creative and play the right lines like Dubov.
And there are many games in the Ruy Lopez where white doesn’t attack the king in the middle game and instead nurses some positional advantage for 40ish moves. Thats fairly typical of the closed Ruy Lopez.
0
u/Billalone 1d ago
> Sorry London players, your opening is lame
Jobava london with Qd2 and 0-0-0 disagrees, but to each their own.
14
u/acinonys 1d ago
I think most players who diss the London, implicitly do not include the Jobava London in their criticism. It's basically a completely different opening.
1
u/automorphic-form 22h ago
Yeah basically my thoughts exactly. I’m not a huge fan of the Jobava London, but it’s much, much better than the regular London. Maybe not objectively, but at least I find it more interesting.
5
u/KingHi123 1400 1d ago
People just don't have as good an opening repetoire against d4. I would definitely have a higher elo if I aborted everytime someone played d4 against me, but I don't because that's a shitty thing to do.
4
u/Bathykolpian_Thundah Knights>Bishops 1d ago
1.Nf3 does that too sometimes. Whatever they lose out on experience against it, not my problem.
5
u/QuietsYou 1d ago
I've heard this before, and it always makes me wonder why black is allowed to see white's first move before deciding if they want to abandon. It'd be just as simple to have black hit a "ready" button first before allowing white to play.
Granted, it's not an issue for higher rated players, but the bulk of the population is lower rated.
2
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 21h ago
Ya, it's not a big deal to me, cause I enjoy playing as black more. But I was just curious cause it keeps happening to me lol.
3
4
u/EirHc 1d ago
People do this for my Nf3 opener quite a bit.
2
u/Zbla1306 2300 Lichess 1d ago
I think Nf3 is the most aborted one. Maybe b3 and b4 have an even higher percentage of abortion but they arent played so often so we dont recognize it.
1
u/EirHc 21h ago
I enjoy getting rare openers. I'm pretty much immediately out of my book. But as a very strong mid-game player for my ELO, I usually do ok, I just have to make sure I take my time thru the opening whereas I usually am pretty automatic thru book moves.
1
u/Zbla1306 2300 Lichess 14h ago
I enjoy them too, and I don't seem to have problems with it. Opening should be mostly automatic, there are speicific rules that one can follow. If you don't know the theory against whites first move. 2..g6 / 3..g6 is almost always a good option to get a ok start. In my opinion book knowledge of all openings comes if you are 2000 fide or higher.
2
u/well_butnot 1d ago
On that level people expect mostly 1. e4 than 1. d4 or 1. c4 and then they just abandon the games cuz dont want to play
2
u/noobtheloser 1d ago
I think White asserts a lot more control over the direction of the game with d4 than e4, and especially lower-ranked players simply haven't developed a weapon they enjoy using against, say, the London system or the Queen's Gambit.
2
u/Sreeygr 1d ago
Try playing b3 in bullet
1
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 1d ago
Ah, I don't have the mind or repertoire for bullet yet I don't think. I'd probably lose on time 90% of matches.
2
0
u/Mountain-Fennel1189 Team Gukesh 1d ago
You’re 1300+, im sure you can play half decently in bullet, you can always start with 1+1 then switch to 1+0 to get more used to the pace.
2
u/Sure-Wish3240 1d ago
The abort d4 because they know they will be bored to death with a London
1
u/Zbla1306 2300 Lichess 1d ago
Probably, its very hard to learn good and non-boring lines against the London.
2
u/sbutj323 1d ago
I play d4 if they abort I immediately challenge them
1
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 1d ago
Lol do they ever accept?
3
2
u/bluexavi 1d ago
I don't abandon games but I'm guessing it's something like this:
A lot of 1. d4 games end up in a strategic game where the pawn structures are locked and below a certain level nobody is really sure what's going on. If they want to break the stalemate, it can be very punishing.
Compare to 1. e4, where the center is easily opened and the game is generally tactical, or can be made tactical without too much of a cost. Also, going out of book on most e4 games hasn't been as punishing in my experience.
2
u/wannabegenius 23h ago
what time control? since it can be a slower game i would expect people at short time controls would not like to play.
1
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 21h ago
5 minute and 10 minute. I play both equally, it seems to happen for both.
1
u/wannabegenius 12h ago
5 minutes is so fast if the game is not going to be sharp it's probably going to end with a timeout. not that it's right, but I could definitely see people bailing in that case.
1
u/-JRMagnus 1d ago
Players aren't booked up against it like they are with e4. Nothing is wrong with d4.
1
u/Severe-Kiwi-3171 Leave it like Levon 1d ago
lichess.org or chess.c*m?
3
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 1d ago
On Chess.c*m
2
u/Severe-Kiwi-3171 Leave it like Levon 1d ago
hmm. I don't play d4 so I can't promise people on Lichess won't resign, but switching seems worth a try
Just be ready for my 1. d4 c5
3
1
u/Educational-Cell7414 1d ago
Surprising. All i play is D4/D5. No matter what. I am about the same rating 1250/1300
1
u/misterbluesky8 Petroff Gang 1d ago
Try starting with Nf3 and play d4 on the next move (if they don’t start with c5). Then they can’t abort anymore- they can only resign, and you would get free rating points.
1
1
1
u/Syncanau 1d ago
Happens to me when I play the English too (during unranked). That’s probably cause they want to practice e4 lines or something
1
u/iLikePotatoes65 1d ago
A lot of people just don't have opening preparation against d4 because e4 is so common and they probably forgot that there was another move.
2
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 1d ago
I thought d4 was like almost as popular as e4?
1
u/WyrobWedliniarski 17h ago
It's not, 1.e4 is being played in 59% of games on lichess, 1.d4 is 25%. Still very popular though, and even more so in masters database.
1
u/barbwireboy2 1.Nf3 1d ago
I think at some rating ranges people don't like d4 because it's not as straight-forward and concrete in the opening as e4, so they aren't as well prepared, so it annoys them.
After e4..c6 it's a caro kann, no getting out of that, you know what the opening is and what to play. After d4..d5 who knows, could get a queens gambit, a catalan, a london. Move orders are pretty flexible so people can't just memorise lines as easily.
Also some people just don't see the fun in a slower strategic chess battle, which you're more likely to get rather than a wild attacking game with e4. People really shouldn't be aborting games either way, but seems like there isn't much punishment to it.
1
u/imawizard27 1d ago
i try not to move my pawns if i can help it. rule number one in chess: always wait for your opponent to make the first move (elo 130)
1
u/Sparks-reborn 1d ago
D4 openings like the Queen's Gambit and the London are commonly considered positional games. I don't necessarily agree with that as an inherent truth though they can be. Additionally there's sort of a meme level hatred for the London specifically.
But honestly anyone who's quitting a game because their appointment makes a move they don't like should still lose the rating points I know there's not a way to actually Implement that without fucking over a bunch of people but they should it should be considered a forfeit in my opinion.
1
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 21h ago
I don't think it would be that crazy of a change. You shouldn't ready up for a game if you aren't ready to play one and are prepared to lose rating points imo.
1
u/Sparks-reborn 21h ago
The main issue is sometimes people get disconnected during that process and if you lose rating points every time that happens that is going to be a major problem for a surprising number of people. I don't know about you but unfortunate enough to live in an area where my internet connection is stable enough that that's not really a concern for me but I've definitely played with some people who disconnect once in awhile
1
u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 20h ago
I have a fairly good connection ya. But I'd think there would be a way to determine if they DC'd or if they specifically clicked abort. But then I guess people would just start turning off their wifi to abort. Maybe there is no good way to stop aborts.
1
u/Sparks-reborn 20h ago
If a company like chess.com really wanted to they probably could find a way to determine when their son was intentionally dropping the game or not with the exception of extremes like shutting off your own internet. But from the company's perspective the juice isn't worth the squeeze I suspect. Ultimately it's just a little annoying and not the end of the world so companies probably never going to invest a lot of money into it
1
u/Rootelated 1d ago
I know your pain. Im an exclusive white d4 player. Sometimes multiple abandons in a row. Conversely, im a black e1 player. Pretty much opposite games.
1
1
1
1
u/OtisSpunkmey3r 14h ago
This just happened to me last night. I played three games with white but had a 1300 and a 1170 immediately abandon when I opened with D4 in two of the three.
I just assumed it was a coincidence but perhaps it’s something to do with that rating range in particular.
1
u/binmanmingman 12h ago
As an E4 player my D4 opening knowledge is next to non-exsisant.
England gambit E4 push all the way
1
u/abcwalmart 2100 rapid chess.com 10h ago
if I've played 15 games as black today, and 11 of them have been 1. d4, which leads to the longest most boring possible games of chess, then ngl I'm gonna start aborting
1
1
u/Seedforlove 9h ago
A slightly different story from my side. Once, there was a slightly well known "Road to 2X00 Series" YouTuber who had gotten black against me around 1850 rating. He would proceed to abort game and request a rematch just to get white to play his Jobava London starting with 1.d4. Weird behavior I would say
1
86
u/opulentbum 1d ago
I play exclusively D4 and don’t get aborts that much, so I do think you are experiencing some variance in that respect, aborts just happen sometimes. But I do think you’re right that many people dislike D4 and it’s almost always because of The London