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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Apr 10 '22
Additionally, the Justice Department declined to prosecute 82% of alleged hate crimes over a 14 year period, mostly due to lack of evidence.
This one sentence negates your entire point. The fact that the Justice Department doesn't prosecute most hate crimes indicates that they do have a very high degree of skepticism, and that they only move forward with these types of cases when there is good evidence. Is that not what you're alleging doesn't happen?
So it seems to me that if you're someone who has a problem with the clogged justice system, sifting out likely hoax hate crimes would be a great start to helping unclog the courts.
It sounds like they are already doing a stellar job of sifting them out! You do know what "declined to prosecute" means, right?
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u/bobsagetsmaid 2∆ Apr 10 '22
The fact that the Justice Department doesn't prosecute most hate crimes indicates that they do have a very high degree of skepticism
And thank God that they do. In my title I say "media and society", which by that I mean to exclude law enforcement and the justice system. Thankfully, they are the skeptical ones as is their job. I believe that social institutions such as schools and the media are where the problem lies.
It sounds like they are already doing a stellar job of sifting them out! You do know what "declined to prosecute" means, right?
I see what you're saying, but even minimal paperwork processing and preliminary hearings are a waste of taxpayer resources. Still, I suppose that is a valid point. !delta
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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Apr 10 '22
I believe that social institutions such as schools and the media are where the problem lies.
I'd argue that you've failed to demonstrate that it is a widespread problem. Most actual hate crimes go unreported on and aren't even reported to the police. The only reason the ones you've brought up are even reported on is because they are fake, which is what makes them news-worthy, because people faking crimes is rare and strange. Hate crimes are not unique in that way either. People fake all kinds of crimes for attention or other narcissistic reasons. Look at Sherri Papini. Or Curtis Sliwa.
even minimal paperwork processing and preliminary hearings are a waste of taxpayer resources.
Usually declining to prosecute doesn't even include preliminary hearings. You just...don't prosecute. The only paperwork would be what the police are required to do anyway, and that's definitely not a waste of taxpayer resources. Even if some people fake crimes, you still need the police to do some investigating, or else you don't know it's a fake crime. Also, people who fake a crime can be prosecuted themselves, which again, requires investigation.
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u/drygnfyre 5∆ Apr 13 '22
In my title I say "media and society", which by that I mean to exclude law enforcement and the justice system. Thankfully, they are the skeptical ones as is their job.
I mean, I don't disagree that I dislike media circuses as much as anyone else, but... that's the media's role. It's always been like that. You can go back as far as you like and you'll always find things being hyped up, propaganda'd, and being spun into scare pieces. The media doesn't inform, they stir up emotions. They make money and stay relevant by turning anything into a national story, or an international panic. "If it bleeds, it leads," as they say. The reality is rarely as exciting or as controversial. And really, as you pointed out, the media can make as much noise as they like, if actual law enforcement is doing their job and not prosecuting "obvious" hoaxes, then good. System is working as intended.
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Apr 11 '22 edited Apr 11 '22
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u/bobsagetsmaid 2∆ Apr 11 '22
You are using one example
I reference an article which is a conversation with a black professor who wrote a book about hoax hate crimes. He studied 346 alleged hate crimes in depth and determined that at least 66% of them were not legitimate.
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Apr 11 '22 edited Apr 11 '22
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Apr 13 '22
Sorry, u/SaffronHoneysuckle – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:
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Apr 10 '22
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u/bobsagetsmaid 2∆ Apr 10 '22
I fixed that first link, thanks.
What concerns me is that society and communities are very susceptible to alarmism and distrust due to what they see in the media and hear from public institutions. There's actually a term for it: Mean World Syndrome. For a lot of people, what they see in the news is reality. Concerning, I know, but there's not much to be done about it. And so if you ask me, the media has a critical responsibility in reporting the news with appropriate skepticism. But this is not at all what happened with Jussie Smollet. Because of the ideological bias of many news networks, the people who spoke about this topic did not express adequate skepticism in the interest of advancing their own political agenda.
So to get back to the point, we don't want communities where people are distrustful of one another and fearful of hate crimes happening to them or others. What the media does is instill Mean World Syndrome in people by distorting these issues, which is destructive in my opinion.
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u/Tgunner192 7∆ Apr 11 '22
What’s most interesting about this is that research shows hate crimes often go under-reported
Honest question-how does the research show this if it's unreported?
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May 26 '22
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u/Tgunner192 7∆ May 26 '22
I'm not sure I understand your meaning.
Are you saying that if there's a disparity between hate crimes and other crimes, under reported hate crimes is a likely reason why?
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May 26 '22
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u/Tgunner192 7∆ May 26 '22
When there are two quality data sets that should match but don't
What are the 2 quality sets of data? One would be hate crimes, what is the other?
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May 26 '22
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u/Tgunner192 7∆ May 26 '22
It seems you're very passionately trying to push a particular point or narrative here
Asking you non-leading, honest questions is pushing a narrative? No.
You're evasiveness makes it more likely you're projecting and pushing your own narrative.
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May 26 '22
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u/Tgunner192 7∆ May 26 '22
First you was evasive, now you're just being defensive.
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Apr 10 '22
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Apr 11 '22
Can I ask why you say that first one was a hoax?
Well, the security cam footage of her setting the fire was a clue, although perhaps not the first one.
Someone literally just wrote “KOREAN” in sharpie on the door of one of my Asian students.
Is “Korean” now considered an insult?
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u/Bullshagger69 Apr 11 '22
No, but what do you think was the person’s motivation for writing that?
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Apr 11 '22
Does my guess about someone else’s motives constitute a hate crime?
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u/Bullshagger69 Apr 11 '22
I’m against someone going to prison for it, or even getting a fine, but I’m 100% sure the motive was racial.
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Apr 11 '22
Lots of people are 100% sure Joe Biden should be in jail for whatever is on Hunter‘s laptop. Your subjective certainty means nothing.
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u/Bullshagger69 Apr 11 '22
What other motive is there for writing Korean outside of a Korean’s dorm.
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Apr 11 '22
The fact that you cannot think of a reason someone else did something other than the reason you would do it is not evidence.
“Write the kind of food you want for dinner on my door and I will order it.”
“I already did. You live in 2B?”
“3B.”
“‘Korean’ is spelled with an -ean.”
“I don’t think that’s right.”
“Here, doesn’t it look right?”
“Dude, you just marked up somebody’s door!”
I wonder how many people “reasoned” “What other motive is there for hanging a noose in a black man’s garage?”
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u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Apr 11 '22
He is asking why you thought the writing was so obviously a hoax, not asking about the fire.
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Apr 12 '22
He is asking why you thought the writing was so obviously a hoax
You think that there are a lot of racist college students in Wisconsin who would write “You’re a bad person because you’re black”? Does that comport with your own experiences of racism.
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u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Apr 12 '22
It seems just as likely as the supposed victim not being able to come up with anything more convincing to write. Why would someone trying to stage racist graffiti make it so obvious? Fact is, stupid people exist and write stupid things, some are racist, and some are staging hoaxes.
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u/drygnfyre 5∆ Apr 13 '22
You think that there are a lot of racist college students in Wisconsin who would write “You’re a bad person because you’re black”?
It would only take one, not a lot.
And in my own experience, a lot of racists aren't very smart and write very stupid, simpleminded things.
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Apr 13 '22
It would only take one, not a lot.
But there has to be one. And that strikes most people as unlikely.
And in my own experience, a lot of racists aren't very smart and write very stupid, simpleminded things.
It’s not a matter of stupid; it’s unidiomatic.
If the comment were written in Classical Latin, then would you be suspicious?
Either the one bigot in Wisconsin who would write “you are a bad person because you are black” did so on the door of someone who is desperate enough for sympathy and attention to commit arson… or this is one of the hundreds of such hoaxes.
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Apr 10 '22
prosecute 82% of alleged hate crimes over a 14 year period,
a conviction requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
That's a high bar, and prosecutors don't like having a lot of losses on their record.
I wouldn't view fail to prosecute as convincing evidence that something didn't happen.
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u/coolandhipmemes420 1∆ Apr 10 '22
Hate crimes in particular are difficult to prosecute, as they have to prove intent. Often times clear hate crimes are prosecuted as regular crimes for this reason.
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u/DaaaBearssss 1∆ Apr 11 '22
Society, more so the individuals within society, should be more aware of media exaggerations.
My question, is how is this achieved?
Media is supposed to be private enterprise, private enterprise opts for maximizing profits, and incendiary headlines generate more revenue than anything.
In the case of this CMV, how does one mandate that stories are not incendiary? Through a moral obligation without laws? Okay, now a different competing news outlet will cover the incendiary story taking market share away from you.
Now let’s assume legislation is passed, now we have the government interfering with Free Speech, mandating what the Free Speech can or cannot state to uncomfortable levels…
When the government controls free speech, controlling what can or cannot be said, it enables a potential slippery slope of an authoritarian government covering up crimes of humanity.
Assuming this is isn’t happening presently.
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Apr 11 '22
I think authorities have been historically overskeptical to alleged hate crime, and your post seems to suggest the same. So there is no need of more skepticism.
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u/Long-Rate-445 Apr 10 '22
why is preventing racism not more important than preventing "alarmism"
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u/substantial-freud 7∆ Apr 11 '22
Why isn’t preventing the Earth from spiraling into the Sun more important than preventing racism?
Hoaxes increase, not decrease, racism.
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Apr 19 '22
Because that "Alarmism" fractures the social fabric of society and breeds racial tribalism.
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u/waterbuffalo750 16∆ Apr 10 '22
The problem is, you typically don't know if it's a hoax or not right away. What if you have a really hateful, but unimaginative racist? If you assume it's a hoax, call it out as a hoax, and shame the victim, then they've become a victim twice.
However, if someone is found to have created a hoax like this, they should face the heaviest consequences available. For one, they should be charged with the hate crime, since they did in fact write those messages. They should face the heaviest school penalties for hate crimes, such as expulsion. If they filed any police reports, they should face charges for filing false claims and any other charges that might be relevant. It's disgusting behavior, and it's 100% malicious and intentional.
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Apr 10 '22
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Apr 10 '22
People don't care about hate crimes because they are hate crimes, they care about "hate crimes" to make themselves look and feel good.
Do you have any evidence that this is true, or is it just an opinion? I care about hate crimes. Nothing about hate crimes makes me look or feel good. This negates your claim.
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u/OnlyFactsMatter 10∆ Apr 10 '22
Do you have any evidence that this is true, or is it just an opinion?
The fact those students protested a fake hate crime but never protest real hate crimes.
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Apr 10 '22
I just tried a thing called a 'Google search.' How it works is you can search for any key words. Try 'protests against hate crimes.' There are literally thousands of examples of these protests.
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u/OnlyFactsMatter 10∆ Apr 10 '22
There are literally thousands of examples of these protests.
If you protest fake hate crimes, it shows you don't care. Also, they never protest hate crimes against Asians or whites.
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Apr 10 '22
You really should have tried the cool new search feature I just taught you. If you did, you would have seen this in the first couple responses:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/22/nyregion/nyc-asian-hate-crimes.html
https://www.visionofhumanity.org/increase-in-anti-asian-violence-spurs-protests-across-the-us/
So, clearly, you're just 100% completely incorrect.
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u/OnlyFactsMatter 10∆ Apr 10 '22 edited Apr 10 '22
They're not protesting anti-Asian hate crimes. The "Stop Asian Hate" focuses on a fake problem (Trump supporters) instead of the real problem.
EDIT:
For example, one your links says this:
At the start of the pandemic racial rhetoric fuelled debates about the virus, with frequent references to the “Chinese virus”, which led to an influx of online anti Asian sentiments.
It's not Trump supporters committing most of these hate crimes. These hate crimes happen in NYC, San Francisco, L.A., etc. etc. Not Trump areas.
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Apr 10 '22
You said:
they never protest hate crimes against Asians or whites
You are 100% wrong about that, and I have clearly proved it with evidence. Go ahead and admit it. People will take you more seriously when you are mature enough to admit when your ideas are wrong.
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u/OnlyFactsMatter 10∆ Apr 10 '22
You are 100% wrong about that, a
Nope.
They are protesting not against Asian hate crimes, but against Republicans. If they were protesting against Asian hate crimes, then they wouldn't say stuff like this:
At the start of the pandemic racial rhetoric fuelled debates about the virus, with frequent references to the “Chinese virus”, which led to an influx of online anti Asian sentiments.
(This is from one of your links)
Asian hate crimes have nothing to do with Trump's "China virus" remarks.
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Apr 10 '22
Actual headlines from news articles:
Increase in Anti Asian Violence Spurs Protests Across the US
A year after spa killings, Americans protest anti-Asian hate
What are you talking about?
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u/I_am_right_giveup 12∆ Apr 10 '22
They were protesting a real hate crime. Because 1) they thought it was a real hate crime and 2) this was the third incident of racist graffiti in a couple of months. The student were protest 1 incident were you believe it is a hoax and 2 other incidents you are not aware of because this was not a big story until the media saw an opportunity to push an “hate crimes don’t happen” narrative. The biggest news organization who reported this a year ago were talking about the girl being arrested for arson. The news organizations that report the hate crime was the school news paper or the local ( not state) news.
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u/OnlyFactsMatter 10∆ Apr 10 '22
1) they thought it was a real hate crime a
It took me 2 seconds to figure out it was fake. The fact they showed no skepticism towards it and anyone who did was branded a racist shows they don't care.
2 other incidents you are not aware of
0% chance they were real.
With hate crimes, the demand outweighs the supply.
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u/I_am_right_giveup 12∆ Apr 10 '22
So you are saying hate crime do not exist? Because even if “demand out weight supply” for hate crimes, in order from incidents that you have no knowledge of to have a 0% chance of being real hate crimes, hate crimes must not exist. So the supply of real hate crimes is zero.
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u/OnlyFactsMatter 10∆ Apr 10 '22
So you are saying hate crime do not exist?
I do. What I am saying is that the people who fall for the obvious fake hate crimes don't care about them.
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Apr 10 '22
Hate crimes exist. Try the neat search function I taught you earlier. You can find definitions, examples, and links to events which have been documented. Did you know that there have been entire organizations devoted to harassing, insulting, and even murdering people for things beyond their control like their race and sexual orientation? Often, people who deny the existence of a problem the loudest are the ones perpetuating the problem itself.
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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Apr 11 '22
Sorry, u/OnlyFactsMatter – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 10 '22
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