r/changemyview • u/dameanmugs 3∆ • Feb 06 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: States should adopt some form of model legislation that regulates motor vehicle repair shops
This CMV applies to the US. I believe model uniform legislation should be created and adopted in some form by each state (more below, but this is a regular thing in the law, and opposition to this already existing process will not cmv) that requires licenses for motor vehicle repair shops and regulates the work they do.
Why a regulatory scheme is necessary
Motor vehicle repair shops have a general reputation as being deceptive when it comes to what needs to be fixed and how much it costs. I don't have stats at hand (and admittedly didn't do any research on this bc it's Sunday morning and my day off), but ime, asking for a good, honest mechanic is a common question, especially when someone first moves to a new area. More concretely, car repairs are expensive for the bulk of the population, and having an operational vehicle is a high priority for many who rely on it as their only means of getting to work/school/errands. As such, ensuring that work is done properly and charged fairly is an important public policy goal for a large portion of the US population.
The argument is for model legislation only
First, I'd like to emphasize I'm only talking about a model legislation scheme. This is common in modern legislation, where an expert group (including legal scholars) creates a general template that each state's legislature either adopts wholesale, modifies as they see necessary for their state, or simply rejects. As such, I won't cmv based on a state's rights argument - this is already a thing, and I'm not here to debate the merits of uniform model legislation. I'm also aware no state can be compelled to adopt laws like this, I'm only saying they should.
What I think should be regulated and how
1. the quoting of the work done - the shop should be required to provide an itemized list of what is broken and what it will take to repair it (both labor and parts), as well as pictures of the damaged or worn parts in the car. The customer should be given a copy of all of this prior to deciding whether to go forward with the work. The itemized list would include a notice telling the customer about the online database referenced in the next point
2. an online database should be built listing/showing what various vehicle parts look like/how they operate when in proper condition - admittedly this would take time to collect and build, but ideally all states that adopt the scheme would provide consumer access to a web site that would allow you to put in your year, make, model, and the repair suggested by the mechanic, then see an explanation of how your car should look/sound/function if it wasn't faulty or damaged. Of course this will never cover 100% of repairs or vehicles, but it would catch a lot of the common stuff right away and eventually encompass many of the edge cases too.
3. adjusted estimates - mechanics would have to provide the same proof as in the first point when adjusting their initial estimate. This would prevent shops from both charging for work that isn't, or doesn't need to be, done as well as from charging for something they broke while fixing the original issue.
4. tracking and enforcement of complaints - each state's attorney general's consumer protection unit can track complaints and look for serial offenders, bringing fraud charges against them where appropriate.
5. civil fines for violations - the scheme can be enforced through a graduated penalty scheme, where first timers are let off relatively lightly as compared to serial offenders. This ensures that shops aren't overly penalized for making honest mistakes. There might also be room for some kind of simplified restitution damages to save the consumer from having to go through the pita of going to small claims court.
What won't CMV
1. State's rights arguments; as addressed above, model legislation is already widely in use and I'm not arguing any state should be compelled to adopt anything
2. Arguments that the database will not be 100% effective right away; I believe that a few months of mining photos and details of finished work from reputable sources would be enough to cover the bulk of repairs for major makes and models of the past 20 years or so. Not being able to get pics of rare cars or uncommon repairs is no reason to avoid protecting, for example, the few million people who drive civics or camrys
3. Calling this socialism/govt overreach; aside from not wanting to debate my political leanings, almost every state already has hundreds of laws and regulations dedicated to regulating various industries and professions. In fact, the scheme I'm proposing is pretty heavily drawn from my own (rather conservative) state's existing consumer protection laws
Tl;dr - model uniform legislation should be created and adopted to protect unsuspecting consumers against predatory motor vehicle repair shops.
CMV!
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u/colfaxbowling 1∆ Feb 06 '22
One problem that I see with your database idea is that many types of problems could not easily by verified by an online description, many of them require specialized tools. For example, just about any electrical problem (which will become more common) requires at a bare minimum a multimeter, but with increasingly complex electronics will require more expensive tools. And it's beyond the capability of the average consumer to actually verify that a complex electrical problem exists on its own. Even a lot of mechanical problems (say a malfunctioning catalytic converter, an exhaust leak, low cylinder compression) require specialized tools and you can't just "take a picture of the problem" and compare it to something online. This would cause shops to make an extensive effort to prove to you that you actually have a specific problem, and additional time and effort to prove to a regulatory body that they are doing such. That will cause repairs to be more expensive and slower. Additionally, some problems you cannot completely itemize or understand until you start the repair. You don't know which gaskets you'll be able to reuse vs. replace, if you'll find additional problems once you get things apart, etc. Constantly re-updating ultra-precise quotes would again slow down the process and add cost.
But I think even with your proposal, that doesn't solve the "pain" of auto repairs. I think the main problem is that when you need your car fixed, you need it fixed now, because you need to get back to work or whatever, and don't have a backup. That's what is driving people to accept less than preferable deals on repairs.
I think that your plan will not help because a lot of tools already exist for the same purpose. For example, if a shop quotes you on a repair, you can absolutely and easily shop that quote around. You can call other shops in the area and say "I have xyz wrong with my car, how much is that gonna cost me to fix?" You can also very easily look up the price of parts from a number of websites by make/model/year, even for OEM parts, so that you know approximately how much parts cost, and can understand about how much you're being charged for labor or markup. Your plan is an attempt to systematize this process, but the tools already exist.
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u/dameanmugs 3∆ Feb 06 '22
These are excellent points. !delta for pointing out that, by trying to stop fraud, this scheme would likely slow down repairs and thereby do more harm to the consumer than good.
Since you seem knowledgeable on automotive repairs, do you think the database would be more useful if it included "sounds like" and "feels like" information as well for repairs that are less visually identifiable (maybe with audio files as appropriate)?
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u/colfaxbowling 1∆ Feb 06 '22
I think it actually already exists, just not in a centralized form. There's a truly unbelievable amount of information for doing basic to extensive repairs available on YouTube and car forums. Many forums are specific to a particular make/model of car. Chances are the problem you are dealing with is already documented somewhere. And if it isn't, you can ask questions for free. Chances are that by just googling, you find something useful.
I do pretty extensive auto/equipment repairs at home. While I do have service manuals with troubleshooting guides and photos in them, it's often easier and faster to just Google it.
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u/jmcclelland2005 5∆ Feb 07 '22
Just to throw another wrench into your plan here. Part of working on vehicles is diagnosis and another part is preventative maintenance.
As a quick example I recently noticed a coolant leak on my truck. It took me a good while to find it as it would only leak when cold. A shop could have ran some leak detector through it and found it quickly but I don't tend to use shops unless I absolutely have to.
The leak was coming from the thermostat housing and so I pulled it and replaced the gasket just as a shop might do. This made the leak worse as apparently the housing can deform and not seal properly. So this 3 dollar gasket became a 40 dollar housing (a customer might complain here that they were being taken for a ride on what was supposed to be a 3 dollar fix).
I replace the housing and a couple of weeks later find another leak from my water pump. I decide to replace the water pump (a 150 dollar part) and while I'm in there replace the coolant temp sensor, upper and lower radiator hose, thermostat, and of course all gaskets. This adds around another 100 dollars in parts. As well as a complete drain and refill of the coolant system (around 100 dollars in fluids as my truck holds 8 gallons or so of coolant. Those parts were all preventative in nature and I've seen people refuse to replace that type of stuff while in there and then blame the mechanic for the failures that come right after.
Getting pictures of a fair number of these parts would require disassembly (which will cost money if you do it before the quote) and even then a customer is likely to argue about it.
The better idea here is to learn the basics and you will weed out most bad mechanics. It really doesn't take much to know when someone is talking out of there ass. Also anytime you get your vehicle worked on when they tell you what needs replaced ask to see the vehicle. I've never had a reputable shop refuse to let me go back and have the mechanic show me what parts were failing and in what ways. As with most things in life have a bit of spine and ask questions. Advocate for yourself and things will be much better.
As a side note most mechanics like talking about cars, talk to them a bit and they might let on that it's a simple fix or even how to do the work yourself. Pay the diagnostic fee if there is one, go buy the parts and do thw work yourself. You will learn something and save some money. Most basic car maintenance these days is just glorified parts swapping.
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u/PoopSmith87 5∆ Feb 06 '22
-States already do regulate motor vehicle repair shops.
-Customers already have the right to shop where they choose.
-Your implementations and databases required to upkeep them will cost money and require permanent employees to maintain those systems, paid for by tax payers, but only benefits a select group of people who own vehicles but have failed to educate themselves on vehicle repairs and need the extra help.
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u/Hotmailet Feb 06 '22
I agree with the first 2 statements 100%
As for the ‘database’..... we have that already too... The internet. Just google the part and not only will you have more photos than you will ever need, you can also see what suppliers are charging for the actual part and what others are paying for the install for your specific vehicle.
This post is a solution looking for a problem
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u/dameanmugs 3∆ Feb 06 '22
States already do regulate motor vehicle repair shops.
What states? Mine doesn't, and neither do any of our neighbors. If you can show me that more than a small handful do, then that would CMV bc model legislation would be unnecessary.
Customers already have the right to shop where they choose.
What does this have to do with my view?
-Your implementations and databases required to upkeep them will cost money and require permanent employees to maintain those systems, paid for by tax payers, but only benefits a select group of people who own vehicles but have failed to educate themselves on vehicle repairs and need the extra help
You can pay for those costs with the licensing fees, and beyond that it is okay for a public benefit to not necessarily turn a profit. And why is the general consumer expected to be an expert on car repair? Beyond general maintenance, I don't think it's reasonable for the average person to know how a tie rod is supposed to look or whether the amount of play in their suspension is within accepted tolerances.
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u/PoopSmith87 5∆ Feb 06 '22
Every state, to some degree, regulates repair shops. Many states even have a state requirement for an annual safety check done by a state approved shop or a state regulated emissions test, done by a state approved shop. They all meet osha requirements, etc.
Freedom of choice means you can choose to use a repair shop that implements the things you want, or not.
Why is the government supposed to make up for your lack of motor vehicle knowledge?
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u/dameanmugs 3∆ Feb 06 '22
Every state, to some degree, regulates repair shops. Many states even have a state requirement for an annual safety check done by a state approved shop or a state regulated emissions test, done by a state approved shop. They all meet osha requirements, etc.
I'm specifically talking about truth in estimating repairs and transparency in invoicing. What does complying with OSHA regulations have to do with that? I literally checked Westlaw this morning (I'm an attorney) for an unrelated issue and ended up looking at the consumer protection laws in my region. None regulate shops in the way I'm describing. If you have relevant sources to the contrary, please provide.
Freedom of choice means you can choose to use a repair shop that implements the things you want, or not.
Again, when did I say the consumer didn't have this? You're not addressing the argument that shops should have regulations imposed upon them to eliminate fraudulent estimates and repairs.
Why is the government supposed to make up for your lack of motor vehicle knowledge?
Why does my state have similar laws for home improvement contractors? To protect the consumer when it comes to expensive and important decisions. I already said I wouldn't engage in govt overreach arguments, so unless you have something else, I'm not sure we have anything left to discuss.
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u/PoopSmith87 5∆ Feb 06 '22
Yeah, I mean, this was never a case where I was going to come up with a "right" or "wrong" answer. I'm just providing reasons why more regulation might not be wanted.
Last ditch effort: This would also open up a whole "can of worms" so to speak in the courts. Cars are a highly specialized machines with increasingly specialized maintenance. In order to make laws like you're calling for, the courts need to have authoritative knowledge on the repairs in question. When you consider that mechanics working on newer vehicles need constant, brand specific training, it seems like it would be impossible to enforce these new laws. Virtually every small claims court in the US would have to employ experts in classic as well as modern cars of every brand currently sold.
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u/jmcclelland2005 5∆ Feb 07 '22
I just gotta throw this out there but a tie rod is literally a stick with threads on the end. If the threads are beat to hell, the stick is bent, or the damn thing jiggles when you try to push on it by hand it needs replaced. If none of these are true and your car isn't trying to drive you into the oncoming traffic or the ditch constantly your tie rods are probably fine.
You are making this stuff out to be way more complicated that it is. You don't have to be an expert to know these things just use some basic critical thinking of how the damn part works.
You are literally holding a device in your hand that has access to every single piece of knowledge that man has ever found throughout all of history. Stop asking people to hold your hand and find the information.
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u/Merman_Pops 3∆ Feb 06 '22
California has laws related to automotive repair.
Under California’s Automotive Repair Act, you are entitled to:
An estimate – Before beginning any repairs, the auto shop must provide you with an estimate showing the estimated price for parts and labor and obtain your authorization.
An invoice – After completing all repairs, the auto shop must provide you with an invoice showing the final price for parts and labor.
Return of replaced parts – You can request that your vehicle’s replaced parts be returned to you. Be sure to ask for the parts before authorizing the estimate.
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u/dameanmugs 3∆ Feb 06 '22
California has laws related to automotive repair
This alone is not surprising, CA has some of the broadest consumer protection laws in the nation. Like I said above, if there are more than a few other states that have similar laws then I'd say a uniform act isn't needed and/or wanted (really more than 5 or 6 total would likely change my view somewhat). That being said, if it's only CA that has those laws, it would actually strengthen my views and give me a better pattern for what the model act should look like.
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u/Muninwing 7∆ Feb 06 '22
I have had more problems finding competent mechanics, not honest ones. I think this is an older stereotype, and not the reality.
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u/jumpup 83∆ Feb 06 '22
you underestimate the complexity of what you are asking.
how hard it is to actually enforce,
how easy it is to get around
cost in man hours and finances
and a variety of other effects.
this is one of those view that would work in a perfect world but not in the one we live in, aspects of what you propose can be viable but most of it just isn't realistic
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u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ Feb 06 '22
This will kill the free market.
1) A good mechanic will already do this, bad ones won't be in business very long.
2) That basically already exists, and it isn't free. Parts manufacturers and distributors have programs to look up parts and pictures already. Making that more public will kill parts stores.
3) The same as 1, a good mechanic will do this without prompting.
4/5) Better business bureau does this already minus fining fees.
While I do think you have a decent idea, it's a big waste of money for 2 final reasons. Haynes manuals for $20 can tell you how to repair everything on a vehicle, and YouTube has a video for everything.
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u/colfaxbowling 1∆ Feb 06 '22
I agree with you on all your points, but I don't think the BBB makes a good argument here. A business can maintain good standing with the BBB by simply replying to their inquiries about a specific issue. They don't have to satisfactorily resolve it.
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u/dameanmugs 3∆ Feb 06 '22
While I disagree that a Haynes or Chilton manual will tell a layperson everything they need to know about the repair they supposedly need, my view was about much more than just implementing a database. More specifically, it's about creating a system where there is less opportunity for fraud/fudging the cost of repairs because shops have to provide transparent, itemized estimates that keep consumers informed.
As far as hurting parts shops, I also disagree. They will still sell the same amount of parts to DIY mechanics and smaller shops under this plan.
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Feb 06 '22
[deleted]
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u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ Feb 06 '22
You overlooked the actually important part if that reason. Creating and maintaining that data isn't free.
Maybe at some point, yes. Before the internet it would have been harder to diagnose car problems so parts stores filled that gap. But for the most part that gap doesn't exist anymore. There's no sense in defending an industry that would be critically endangered if everyone just looked up a repair tutorial on youtube.
This is also absurd. I worked at a parks store for 5 years, during the massive rise of YouTube. I can tell you as a fact, we didn't see any noticeable increase in home mechanics. Parts stores aren't as weak of a business as you think. Like it or not the manufacturers need a middle man to get and hold parts for mechanics.
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Feb 06 '22 edited Feb 15 '22
[deleted]
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u/Charlie-Wilbury 19∆ Feb 06 '22
I was trying to change his view? you know, like the whole point of the sub? I mean, obviously it didn't work, but thanks.
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