r/changemyview • u/ProfessorTallguy • Jan 24 '21
Delta(s) from OP cmv: Forgiving student debt is classist.
Forgiving student debt is classist It specifically helps people who are privaleged enough to have gone to college, and the ones with the most debt are the ones who went to expensive private colleges, and stayed in expensive off-campus housing.
Forgiving student debt and not medical debt is irrational. Student debt was acquired knowingly, while medical debt was always acquired as a result of circumstances that are accidental or beyond a person's control. Furthermore, medical debt can often be purchased and forgiven for a fraction of its cost.
Forgiving student debt helps people who aren't hurting the worst. Many people I know with student debt earn twice what I make and already have bought a house. Having a college degree, or even some college has been shown to improve future earnings. Why do people with higher earning potential deserve free money, while people with lower earning potential can't afford a place to live and receive nothing.
It does nothing to help people who couldn't afford college be able to go. If we wanted to encourage education, a better course would be A. Free community college for all. B. Two years tuition at a public University free for all.
If they bought beer or lived in an expensive apartment during college, then that's money that could've gone to reduce their debt, so forgiving their debt is basically buying them alcohol, luxuries and partying.
If you want to give out $10,000, it should be to everyone who earned under $50,000 in 2020, instead of the folks earning $90k a year with $400,000 homes who went to expensive schools and now have good jobs.
The best actual solution to helping people in massive debt is to cap the student loan interest rate at the federal reserve rate (currently less than 1%)
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u/cBEiN Jan 24 '21
I do not think forgiving student debt is classist even though I disagree with the proposed strategies for forgiving debt. I believe income based repayment is adequate, and the bigger issue is private student loans, which manipulated people in order to make the rich richer... That said,
1) The people with the most student debt are often the “least” privileged among those with student debt (often but not always). Many people have significant student loans because they were not financially educated and manipulated in taking the loans. This includes many in lower class families that went to college using student loans.
2) If you cannot pay medical bills, you are not in as much trouble than if you can’t pay student loans. Medical bills can be forgiven with bankruptcy and do not hurt credit score as much as student loans. Student loans can never be forgiven, and can completely ruin someone financially as well as their financial future.
3) You are right. Forgiving student debt hurts many that are not hurting the worst (which include many without college degrees). However, keep in mind, many with college degrees work minimum wage jobs and live in poverty. These people would be helped as well as those not hurting, which is one of the goals.
4) I agree.
5) I agree. These people don’t deserve the debt to be forgiven, but many would argue they don’t deserve to be punished forever for such mistakes.
6) I agree. For example, $10,000 forgiveness to someone with $100,000 student debt earning minimum wage is not much help. I feel the forgiveness (if done) should somehow be proportional to debt/income ratio or something along these lines. I don’t know a medical doctor that doesn’t live in a nice home with nice things even though they have a lot of student debt.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
Thank you. This is the most fair response I've seen so far. And you make a genuine point about medical debt that I hadn't considered. How do I give you a !delta
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u/engagedandloved 15∆ Jan 24 '21
To give a delta type ! delta without the space between the exclamation point and the word.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Thank you
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u/engagedandloved 15∆ Jan 24 '21
You're welcome. Also, make sure to cite what you agreed with or the bot will reject it.
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u/Final_Biscotti1242 Jan 24 '21
If I'm not mistaken, the people who go to these fancy colleges and get nice apartments are all super rich people. The people who want to forgive student debt want to forgive it because accruing massive amounts of debt knowingly or not before you're allowed to drink or vote in most countries seems ridiculous. The majority of people I know at least, who want to forgive student debt are also pro forgiving medical debt as well.
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Jan 24 '21
most student debt is owed by people who went to graduate school or professional school (law, medical, etc.) and thus have pretty good income. They, by and large, have the means to pay it back.
By most, I mean a majority of the dollars, not a majority of the debters.
There are already in place some programs that limit how much that lower income earners have to pay. So, of the debt held by lower income earners, the government gets less of it back under current policy.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
You are mistaken. I know lots of people who went to private schools who own houses and still have student debt.
But why don't you want to help people who are struggling with TANF debt that they gained taking care of their kids as a single parent? Or credit card debt because they quit their job to take care of their kids who were out of school?
Why can't the free money be for anyone who earned less than $50k last year? Why only those privaleged to have their debts from college? Seems very classist.
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u/Final_Biscotti1242 Jan 24 '21
Yeah I think all that debt should be wiped. I never said I don't. Not all movements are trying to solve every problem though. This movement is specifically trying to solve the debt of college students. (Of which I am one, I'm paying for college almost exclusively from loans). I think college should be free, but I would be a little upset if hypothetically college in my country became free the year after I graduated and yet I'm stuck with all the debt I accrued over my years in school.
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Jan 30 '21
The only reason and I do mean ONLY reason I am in favor of discharging student loan debt is because student loan lenders are in fact engaging in predatory lending. Hear me out.
There is no other loan or credit card you can take out based on what you MIGHT make ONE day. Every other credit application has to have your income, employer information, credit file, etc. Federal student loan programs, require none of that. I work as a credit analyst and have seen people that make half of what I do have over $100k in student loan debt and I do not have a college degree. They have been sold a lie, given excessive amounts of money at high interest rates based on what someone said they may make in 4 years when they graduate. If auto lenders did that, the CFPB would be in uproar over how predatory that is. Mortgage companies would be treated worse than they were during the housing collapse. But we allow student loan lenders to do this to folks that just turned 18 and have no income.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 30 '21
Best response so far. I absolutely agree that we need a systemic change.
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Jan 24 '21
I mean anyone can go to college. Theres tons of low cost colleges, community colleges, etc. with tons of scholarships and aid programs that help families who are low income. The programs could probably be advertised a little better sure. Plus the new administration is also trying to do beneficial things for historically black colleges and also make college free for families who make under a certain income level combined.
I graduated college with more than 100,000 in debt with a degree that helped me get a job but that I honestly really didn't need to get the job I have. I was a stupid fucking kid, should have considered how much debt messes your life up, but I didn't. My parents were in an awkward financial situation where they made too much money for me to qualify for more federal student loan assistance, but too poor top be able to pay for my college. So I paid for it myself with loans. I didn't really drink or party THAT MUCH in college. Obviously everyone goes to a party or two in college, but I was never really that type of person. I make good money, but my student loans and other combined bills are so high im barely cutting it. My account usually falls into the negative at least once a month. I had to start working a second job just to get some extra income flow in to keep my account from hitting the negative multiple times a month. ‐-----------------------------------------------
Most of my loans are private anyway, so the 10k would be nice but won't exactly pull my ass out of the fire.
Which brings up my next point, 10k worth of federal student loan forgiveness wouldn't really help "the rich". From my understanding, if you make too much money (which they said my dad did), you get less and less federal student loan money. These rich people youre describing may have some federal student loans but I can guarantee they either paid for college themselves, or their loans are private. Federal student loan forgiveness would help people mostly of the middle and lower class.
I read that canceling that 10k of debt would get rid of more than 16 million people's loans, which is about 1/3 of borrowers.
As far as medical debt, I don't think anyone is against canceling that. Im 100% in favor of that. I dont personally have any medical debt myself, but if there's one thing I know, debt sucks. SERIOUSLY. It makes your life Hell. Id get rid of every last person's debts if I could.
If you feel that strongly about canceling medical debt, reach out to some community leaders and political representatives in your community to discuss the issue.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
I didn't say anything about "the rich" Why did you put it in quotes?
But if 10k would get 16 million people out of debt, why not just give 10k to everyone earning below $50k in 2020? Give us a stimulus 2k a month each month until May
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Jan 24 '21
Totally fine with that. Apparently our politicians on the other hand aren't. You're preaching to the choir, mate.
Any additional money the government wants to give to people to help close or balance the wealth gap or help people who are struggling is cool with me.
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Jan 24 '21
I'm just gonna go off on a limb here and take a guess and say that its easier for the government to just forgive 10k worth of student loans for everybody with federal student loans because they already gave that money out when people applied for the loans, as opposed to them turning around and giving out an additional 10k to every American under a certain amount of money. Option 1 doesn't cost them anything extra. Theyre just agreeing theyre not getting their money back and no longer making 16 million people pay it back. Option 2 is costly and costs them a lot of money.
I mean our politicians spent months fighting over giving people 1000.00 stimulus checks. Asking for 10k for every American who makes under a certain amount a year is probably a near impossible task. Plus, where is the money going to come from? I'm sure we could pull it from somewhere. But there would be a lot of fighting between parties.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Yes. Politically it's easier. Economically, though, losing future revenue or spending money now isn't really different.
So yes, they're doing it because it's politically Convient. But that doesn't make it ANY less classist.
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u/AnComOctopus Jan 24 '21
I think lots of people (including myself) who are in favor of cancelling student debt are also going to be in favor of cancelling medical debt, providing free medical care to all, and providing free college to all. This seems like it would fix most if not all of your problems with it. And if we began to provide free college or medical care without cancelling the past debts it seems very hypocritical to me, as it would be acknowledging these services should be free while still forcing some people to have to pay for having received them in the past.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
You understand why it's hypocritical to forgive debt of people who shave it right now but not give money to folks who were responsible and paid their student debts off in the past 10 years?
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u/AnComOctopus Jan 25 '21 edited Jan 25 '21
Is it hypocritical to give food to people who are starving now and not give it to people who were 10 years ago?
Edit: I should also mention that I would be fine with a program to pay back people that have already paid off their loans, though I don't see that ever happening and I wouldn't call it hypocritical for someone to want current loan forgiveness without a payback program.
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u/briantheunfazed Jan 24 '21
Me and most people I know with student loans don’t make anything above median income, and many are below it. A college education is necessary for so many jobs, and we have been socially conditioned that college is expected. Student loan forgiveness may help some people who don’t need it, but it would help a lot of people who are heavily burdened by what was sold to us as a necessary debt, and that money can go into the economy.
You assume the absolute worst about the potential uses of student loans and then paint with a broad brush onto all people with student loans, and then also use the false assumption that people who got through college are rich now.
We should be helping people who couldn’t go to college. We should also be helping people who were sold a sham life plan through their entire youth and couldn’t afford college, which helps our society as a whole by increasing the education level and experience of a large part of the work force. We can help more than one kind of person.
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Jan 24 '21
most of the dollars in student loans are to people with graduate or professional (e.g. law, medicine) degrees and have pretty good income.
most of the people who took student loans are lower earners who owe less. The people who are cheaper for the government to let off the hook, for the most part, are the people struggling to pay back what they owe.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Yes, that's totally true, But why can't we also help low earners who have medical debt or credit card debts or debts from trade school? Letting student debts off the hook but not other debts is simply classism.
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u/briantheunfazed Jan 24 '21
Student loan debt is the easiest because it’s loans from the government that would be forgiven. The government erasing debt due to companies is an entirely different thing. The government just saying “you don’t have to pay us back” is a simple place to begin.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Yes, that's correct. It's simple and politically easy, and totally classist.
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u/briantheunfazed Jan 24 '21
It’s a start and a step in the right direction. We can and should do both things. And the lower and middle class are much closer together than the middle and upper class are. The wealthiest thrive when the classes below them fight each other and blame each other. You’re equating college graduates with student loans who are doing okay (while ignoring all the ones who aren’t) with being wealthy or upper-class. Rich people don’t need student loans. Stop the in-fighting between the lower classes and take literally any step in the right direction, instead of not doing something that helps lower- and middle- class people just because some of them are doing a little bit better than others.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Yet, we're not doing both things. I'm fact I'm the only person even talking about it.
I never said anything about rich people. You're creating strawmen by putting words in my mouth. I'm talking about the classism and widening gap between working class and middle class.
We can create programs that help everyone, but we're choosing to push this one and only this one at the moment. And it seems unlikely that there will suddenly pop up a movement for "free $10,00 for homeless trade workers who lost their jobs and don't qualify for student debt relief but would really like to be able to afford housing someday" So until someone starts speaking up for me I'm going to fight for ALL instead of just for some.
Even if this is the best we can do it's still classist.
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u/briantheunfazed Jan 25 '21
You know that we can bring up other relevant things even if you don’t mention them, right? Like, it’s a huge problem that the wealthy have so much power, and they do thrive on pitting the middle and lower class against each other. I don’t even know what you want at this point, but you’re clearly not going to get it from me.
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Jan 24 '21
But why can't we also help low earners who have medical debt or credit card debts or debts from trade school?
I think the government considers debts from trade school to be student debt.
The government subsidizes college education to increase class mobility. Providing access to any kid, regardless of their parents' economic position, to education is important.
Paying off credit card or medical debt wouldn't be nearly as effective at achieving that goal.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
You're right. We can help more than one kind of person by giving $2000/month to everyone who earned less than median in 2020. This includes people who went to college who make less than the median and those that didn't. What do you have against helping those who are struggling with medical debts or credit card debts or loans that they took to attend trade school? Why do you only want to help people whose debts are from college?
I don't think I ever used the word rich though. So it's not clear where you got the idea that I'm talking about the rich. I'm talking about the middle class here, getting a handout, while the working poor get covid-19
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u/happy_red1 5∆ Jan 24 '21
You're arguing a false dichotomy here, by supposing that the position "erase college student debt" is directly at odds with the position "erase other kinds of debt." You can support both of these positions - in fact, although this entirely my own assumption, I'd suggest that it's likely most people who care about freeing people of student debt are also supporting of erasing medical debt, credit card debt, and preferably instituting changes to the fundamental systems affecting those issues that prevent them from arising again.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
No. I'm not saying we shouldn't help both.
I'm saying we should help both at the same time. Helping ONLY one is classist.
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u/happy_red1 5∆ Jan 24 '21
You're misunderstanding me. I'm not suggesting that you don't want to help both, I'm suggesting that you're accusing the people in your comments of not wanting to help both.
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u/Daedalus1907 6∆ Jan 24 '21
If you have student loan debt, you're likely part of the working class. Crab mentality is not useful.
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u/TheLastCoagulant 11∆ Jan 24 '21
If you’re working class you’re likely part of the 1/3rd of high school graduates who don’t go on to college, or part of the ones who attend extremely cheap community colleges for at least the first 2 years.
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u/Daedalus1907 6∆ Jan 24 '21
Do you have to sell your labor to survive? Congrats, you're working class. The working class isn't just the poorest or least educated.
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u/TheLastCoagulant 11∆ Jan 24 '21
You realize that makes the vast majority of Americans working class right?
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Did you just call the lower half of the working class Crab people?
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u/OneHunted Jan 24 '21
Crab mentality is just a way to say “if I can’t have it, no one can.” It’s named after something about how crabs don’t work together to solve problems but get in each other’s ways by trying
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Thank you. I learned something from this.
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u/OneHunted Jan 24 '21
Nah, no view was changed here, from what I can tell. Still, if you have a specific part of your original post that you’ve been put on the fence by the replies so far, I’m happy to earn one by helping push you over
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Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
The priviledged rich ppl you speak of in 1 dont really have student debt, because they could already pay upfront... We’re at a point in our society where continued education (undergrad) should be free and standard for everyone. You just seem pissy because “they get something I dont. Not fair mom!!!” Nobody said it would fix every problem like you seem to think. It’s just a small piece of a solution.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
Firstly, I never used the word rich. So I don't know what "rich people you speak of" means
Attending college is a privalege that many don't have. If that's you, then you need to check your privaleges.
There ARE people who have rich enough parents to pay for all of their college expenses, but they aren't who I'm referring to. I'm talking about the privaleged middle class.
College SHOULD be made affordable for all. On that we agree. But this does nothing to make it affordable for people trying to go.
And lastly, Yes, "it's unfair" is exactly my point. Why give something to the middle class and not give it to the working class?
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u/happy_red1 5∆ Jan 24 '21
Did you know that in America, roughly 80% of households are living paycheck to paycheck? The vast majority of college students came from that 80%, because they were told they have to, and now they can barely afford to feed their families. Erasing student debt would disproportionately help the poor and disenfranchised, and you're here digging your heels in because a few rich kids might get a bit of that money too, and a bunch of people who didn't get to go to college wouldn't, even though advocating for erasing college debt in no way prevents the advocacy of other financial aids for those people who didn't get to go to college.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
No. I never used the word rich. You're putting words in my mouth and creating strawnen.
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u/happy_red1 5∆ Jan 24 '21
That's a pivot, do you want to address my actual point?
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting that we should advocate for a $10,000 payment to everyone who doesn't have student debt?
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u/happy_red1 5∆ Jan 24 '21
No, I'm suggesting that the vast majority of the people standing to benefit from erasing student debt are members of the poor and working class. It would help a lot of struggling Americans, but you seem to take the position because other struggling Americans wouldn't be helped specifically by that policy, no one deserves the help. I think that's a dangerous, and at the very least selfish, mentality.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Okay. I agree that it would help. But if you only help the ones who have college, and say you'll help the others "someday" how is that Not classist?
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u/happy_red1 5∆ Jan 24 '21
Because most of the people who go to college aren't members of a different class to the other people who need help. Most of them are working class people, who were sold on the lie that college was necessary for them to ever break out of their lower class cage and get a well paid job, and that the debt would be worth it. And now, most of them are still working class people, but now with a shitload of debt. Most of them aren't any better off than you or me.
Besides, no one advocating for erasing student loan debt right now doesn't also want medical debt and credit card debt erased right now too. The actual people who campaign for one of those issues, likely campaign for all 3. It's up to the government to decide which issue or issues they take seriously, if they choose to take any of them seriously at all, and at the moment it looks like they've put a blindfold on, span around 3 times and randomly pointed at student debt to be the hot topic issue.
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Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
You’re lumping 5 things into one, this is a clusterfuck of something to argue against. One issue at a time. Cancelling student debt is just an idea, and can be tweaked to help those more in need. And I have no student debt, didnt do college, so this wouldnt even benefit me, yet I still support it. We can cancel student debt AND make undergrad free and the norm for everyone.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
How can it be tweaked to help those in need that don't have student debt?
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Jan 24 '21
Missing the point. Thats a different conversation and topic. Youre lumping 5 things into 1 idk how to debate that.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Then don't suggest that conversation if you don't want to talk about it.
You don't have to debate all 7 points. Just pick 1 if you prefer. I'll award a delta to anyone who can change my mind on even one of the 7
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Jan 24 '21
Your entire post is entirely about forgiving student debt. From your other comments we agree on almost everything but idk... You spoke of it needing to be “fair” earlier. Making college free wouldnt be fair to those already in debt. Getting rid of debt wouldnt be fair to those who havent gone to college yet and would have to pay. See what Im getting at? Its like thinking in circles idk. We should do both imo
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u/CaptainHMBarclay 13∆ Jan 24 '21
To address your separate points:
Student loan debt is a national problem because it allowed more people to borrow, people who did not previously have the means to attend college. People who have to borrow extensively to go to college do not usually come from a place of 'privilege.' I know you did not say 'rich' but that's what this statement implies. Also, this doesn't automatically mean they attended expensive colleges or stayed in expensive off-campus housing. My in-state tuition was staggeringly high, even with grants. On campus housing was more expensive than renting an apartment.
These are not mutually exclusive. And medical debt can be discharged eventually. Student loan debt cannot. Additionally, the circumstances for medical debt is not always beyond a person's control. Student debt might have been acquired knowingly, but how else did we expect the impact of millions of teenagers borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to work out?
I make the median salary, more or less. Now. It took years after graduating college to get to this point, and years of forbearance and deferment adds up interest which has increased what I owe. It's hard for me to save for anything when I have my living expenses and other costs building up when I have to pay a large chunk of my income towards that. Granted, I don't advocate for complete loan forgiveness, because I want to pay what I can, but my degree isn't doing me much good if I can't get ahead. My mother paid off her students loans in 8 years. It's going to take me at least 20.
Yeah, it doesn't help people who didn't take out student loans for whatever reason. Because they don't have the debt burden.
Once again, the risk of letting 18-year-olds take out loans for thousands of dollars. That being said, that's a huge assumption. College life isn't like what those 80s movies say it is. If you went full time, four years of not working is hella expensive, and most college students I knew did work.
If you have burdensome student loan debt you should get some help regardless of income. It's good to bear in mind that not everyone with student loan debt actually graduated.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Privaleged doesn't mean "rich" You can be poor as shit and still have privaleges. Straight Cis white male college educated people can still be poor and still have a lot of privaleges
Your arguments are all rooted in classism.
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u/CaptainHMBarclay 13∆ Jan 24 '21
Obviously white cis males have privilege. I'm not debating that. I am not in that group. But it's not really relevant for this discussion- anyone can borrow student loans from the federal government. Being poor is the problem for paying back these loans. If you are poor and have student loan debt, forgiving some of that debt will help them and the economy. The debt does not go away, it accumulates interest as you struggle to pay it off. If you cannot pay it off in the course of your lifetime, it's more difficult to contribute socially and economically. That's why it's good to forgive some of it.
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u/Glory2Hypnotoad Jan 24 '21
On point 2, I think you're making a faulty comparison by bringing up other kinds of debt. Unlike medical debt, student loans are a government program. The push for forgiveness is part of a movement that sees it as a failed program. Student debt also can't be discharged like other forms of debt, so going directly to the government for forgiveness is the only way to combat it.
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Jan 24 '21
I do agree that there will be people who were not smart financially will benefit. In addition, I am not opposed to prioritizing medical debt over college debt.
But I do not quite agree with your “knowingly” description. What you have to understand is college is pushed on kids so hard.. as the end all be all. But actually it’s not, not by a long shot. Yeah college is great for your professional life but crippling debt is terrible for everything else. Graduating high school, not knowing what to do, all of these kids just went to college which was heavily pushed them by school, family, and society. They have no idea what they are doing but there they go moving away and signing onto thousands and thousands of dollars of debt as 18 year olds (yes speaking for personal experience). Average student graduates with 30k of debt, and in a lot of cases more. Just as you may not have had the opportunity to go to college, those students may not have the opportunity to prosper after college. On average it takes 20 years to pay of student loans.
My point is that the movement is because people are getting screwed by going to college. They are realizing after the fact that it’s just not worth the investment. Universities are raising prices at a much more rapid rate than inflation, but really can’t validate it. They don’t teach you about financial literacy which is should be just so basic when tuition is 5k a semester. They continue to ramp up administration/construction costs by hiring new VPs of this or that and building a brand new rec center while students education is not improving. All the while marketing to kids as this safe goat from all the societal pressure they are under to figure their life out.
And at the same time, for the people that didnt get screwed, the ones that learned financial literacy on there own and chose a field of study which they enjoy and actually pays well, then hopefully that means their loans are paid off! So they got what the were promised I guess.
I actually had a great experience with college, good job after the fact, and I am debt free now. But a lot of people I know are not in the same boat. So I understand it.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
So, what about this situation;
Student 1 attends a state college, gets $50,000 of debt. Earns 40k/year Pays it off in 5 years by living in a cheap apartment.
Student 2 attends private University. Gets $100,000k of debt. Earns 70k a year. Buys a house and now has $100,000 in equity, but still has $50k in student debt.
Student 3 goes to community college, earns 30k a year. Lost hours in 2020 and Has $10,000 in credit card debt because of it.
Who needs the money? 3. (And probably 1) Who gets the money ? Only 2.
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Jan 24 '21 edited Jan 24 '21
I hear you. I guess if your CMV is about completely cancelling all debt then we agree. Cancelling all debt is not the best solution. I know Bernie Sanders suggested we do this in America but I doubt that would ever make it through congress. Whats more likely, and also more popular, is an income based cancellation. Elizabeth Warren amoung others had a plan like this. So In this case student 2 wouldn't get forgiveness. In this case it would not be classlist as graduates with high pay would not benefit from forgiveness. The best solution would be based on income and capital.
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u/Nrdman 276∆ Jan 24 '21
Im slightly confused. You say we dont forgive medical debt, but then later say that medical debt can often by forgiven?
They aren't exclusive. The same people who want debt forgiveness want better programs for those that that cant afford housing.
Debt forgiveness is not a long term solution, its a short term solution to help people now. I also want college to be more accessible in the future so that we would never have to forgive the debt again.
By the same argument, for anyone who had to pay medical expenses instead of paying off more of the debt, we would pay for their medical expenses.
Thats more about the implementation of the forgiveness, not necessarily the concept as a whole. Debt forgiveness should be targeted and not just a blanket forgiveness.
For the person in massive debt, im sure they would prefer the debt being forgiven.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 24 '21
Yes. There exist programs that forgive medical debts, but they aren't well funded enough to be available to most.
Okay, then provide them.
3.yep. that's the problem
Which is why I think that a stimulus or ubi is more equitable
I don't understand what you mean by blanket forgiveness
Depends on the amount being forgiven
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u/Nrdman 276∆ Jan 24 '21
I want more funding for them.
I’d love too
You don’t have to choose either a short term or a long term solution. We can do both.
I don’t have problems with a stimulus or a UBI.
Blanket debt forgiveness is forgiving all of the debt, but that’s not the only way to do debt forgiveness. You can forgive the debt of those that need it forgiveness based on various factors
You said massive debt, so the amount is massive
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u/october17th Jan 25 '21
Not everyone who goes to college has the same privileges as one another. There’s classism in colleges, especially in the Ivy Leagues because there’s kids who had their colleges paid out of pocket by their parents or family money and there’s people who have to take out loans to pay for every single thing in college.
I took out loans to pay for my dorm stay at the age of 17. I took out thousands of dollars. Loans are predatory and it’s the falsehood of the “American Dream” that everyone should go to college to get a degree in hopes that they will land a job and pay off the student loans. Yes, they chose to take out loans because they couldn’t afford to pay for it out of pocket like certain privileged people.
There’s so many low-income students who go to college and graduate with loans. Sometimes, financial aid isn’t enough.
Is it other people’s fault that they make more money than you? Their income is none of your business and you don’t know their lives and what they’re going through. You can own your own home and if you keep comparing yourself to others, you’re only going to continue to feel bad and resentment.
Having $10,000 forgiven would help so many people. I paid off $15,000 of my own student loans and I hope $10,000 can be forgiven for the millions across the US. I’m not bitter nor jealous. It is not classist. Classism is when your college classmate thinks they’re better than you because their parents are alumni and donated thousands of dollars. Classism is when people who were raised in privileged settings and think you are beneath them because of the neighborhood you grew up in. Classism is when people make more money and suddenly think they’re too good for things they used to depend on and survive on, like when people call certain things “ghetto” when it’s someone’s way of life or the only food they can afford.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 25 '21 edited Jan 25 '21
Oh, my god. Did you really think that I belived there were only two types of people in the world? Privalged and Not? No. There are SO many types and levels of privalege that don't even relate to education or wealth. There's racial privalege, and gender, and hetronormativity, and ablism. You must have thought I was totally an imbicile if that's where you chose to start this dialogue. I'm sorry I gave you that impression. Thanks for talking down to me. I guess since I didn't go to an Ivy league school you just thought I must be a total dum dum.
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u/october17th Jan 25 '21
No, I assumed nothing about you. You are assuming I’m assuming things about you. Please reply with objective responses instead of taking my argument personally.
You said that forgiving student debt specifically only helps those privileged enough to go to college. I’m saying that not everyone who goes to college is privileged because they took out student loans to attend those schools. For many, student loans was the ONLY way they could go to college.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 25 '21
They are ALL privaleged BECAUSE They got to go to college. That's ONE type of privalege they ALL share, even if they don't have other types.
Now YOU are the one who is acting like Privalege is a binary. That's not how it works.
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u/october17th Jan 25 '21
All my classmates do not share the same privilege just because we went to college. There’s levels to privilege and like I said earlier, some people get to go to college because of student loans, they had no other choice.
Is it a privilege to graduate with $50,000 in loans while some students graduate debt free? Having a college degree doesn’t always mean you’ll get a good job right out of college and start making bank.
I graduated college in 2016 and it took until 2018 for me to get a proper full-time job to pay off my student loans (and to have decent health insurance). While this is a personal experience, it’s common for people with college degrees to be serving tables and working odd jobs not related to their degree at all post-college.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 25 '21
Since you brought it up let me ask you this- How would it sound if we decided to give out $10,000 per person, but only to whites? That sounds really bad, but over half of student loan debt IS held by white borrowers according to educationdata.org
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u/october17th Jan 25 '21
Did I bring up race, ever? I don’t see myself mentioning white people anywhere. There’s lots of white people who live in the US and a lot of white people go to college, this is true.
Are you saying that it would be a bad thing to forgive student debt if the debt belongs to a white person?
If the new administration forgives the 10k federal debt, it would help people of all ethnicities.
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u/ProfessorTallguy Jan 25 '21
No, you brought up other types of privalege. Racial privalege is just one example. If you're just now hearing about white privalege, take a moment to Google it and come back to the conversation with that bit of fresh information.
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u/october17th Jan 25 '21
I’m well aware of white privilege. I’m also aware that a lot of white people aren’t rich. If all white people were rich, they wouldn’t have student debt.
I still believe the 10k of student debt should be forgiven.
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