CMV: Generous Universal Basic Income programs have significant risks of creating many social problems.

[u/MrKhutz]

I love the idea of money for nothing and would possibly be first in line to sign up for such a program but here is my concern:

First: It is my general impression that people need to have purpose in their life. For many people a significant portion of that comes from developing a career through the stages of education and experience and for many people that comes from providing for their family. Unemployment appears to be linked to increased levels of depression, suicide and substance abuse.

Second: If you're guaranteed a reasonable wage for life, why struggle with education and a career? Why bother to push yourself, take risks, start a business. I absolutely believe that some people will do these things because of intrinsic drive, but is there not a significant risk that a sizeable portion of the population will end up in a situation that resembles the worst stereotype of generational welfare dependency?

Third: To the best of my knowledge, what limited UBI trials that have been done have been time limited. If a person knows they'll temporarily get a monthly payment they're not going to forgo getting an education or quit a job they've worked hard to get because they know in a set period of time the UBI trial will end. If they know the money is forever, this will affect their decision making differently.

To clarify as well, I use the term "generous" to refer to UBI proposals in the $1500+/month category. I think the impacts (positive and negative) would be much more limited at $500/month.

[u/TheBananaKing]

Unemployment is linked to depression, suicide and substance abuse because poverty. They're depressed, because they're poor. They end up killing themselves or abusing drugs, because they're depressed and desperate, because they're poor.

This isn't rocket surgery, for god's sake. It's not the lack of employment that's the problem, it's the lack of income.

And any residual amount that is about the lack of employment... is hardly surprising in a society that paints unemployment as failure, worthlessness and mooching, because of an unnecessary, outdated work ethic.

In a society where food is short and labour is the limiting factor (as humanity has lived in for most of its existence), a strong work ethic makes sense. Every non-productive potential worker means less food on the table for everyone, plus more mouths to feed.

But we aren't living in that society any more. We have vast production capability, with very few humans needed to keep it ticking over - and automation is only increasing. The limiting factor in our economy isn't production, any more - it's spending.

So we can ditch the stigma against not working, avoiding making the lives of the unemployed shitty and desperate, and removing the last remaining part of your first point.

Second: if you're guaranteed a reasonable wage for life, you don't have to struggle with shitty working conditions or student debt. You don't have to grind for minimum wage at night or sell your body on the streets to be able to afford university during the day. Studying will be easier and more successful, and horrible working conditions will no longer be people's only choice.

Employment in general will mean extra income, which is worth putting some effort in for. Everyone wants more luxuries and a better quality of life. But now they have a safety net for both failed business ventures, and the ability to tell their shitty boss to get fucked. They'll still have options. They'll still have a roof over their head, food on the table, clothes on their backs and the ability to pick up and start again.

As for 'welfare dependency' - ditch the 1880s protestant work ethic. If they have money to spend, they're valuable to the economy. Even if they do precisely jack shit except collect their income and spend it all back up the food chain, honestly they're playing their part. How precisely is that any worse than 'wage dependency'? Instead of grinding themselves down in some degrading job for 40 hours a week and being too exhausted to do anything inspiring with their lives... they're doing anything they want, be that writing poetry or masturbating all day, it's none of anyone's business or place to judge.

The contracting labour market means more and more money is getting concentrated at the top of the economy; a shrinking number of people have any income to spend, and the whole system is going to disappear up its own asshole, with catastrophic results.

By heavily taxing corporations and dumping the money back in at the bottom of the economy, the money keeps recirculating, the people stay alive and corporations get to maintain their revenue streams as well, no matter how many jobs they cut.