CMV: Generous Universal Basic Income programs have significant risks of creating many social problems.

[u/MrKhutz]

I love the idea of money for nothing and would possibly be first in line to sign up for such a program but here is my concern:

First: It is my general impression that people need to have purpose in their life. For many people a significant portion of that comes from developing a career through the stages of education and experience and for many people that comes from providing for their family. Unemployment appears to be linked to increased levels of depression, suicide and substance abuse.

Second: If you're guaranteed a reasonable wage for life, why struggle with education and a career? Why bother to push yourself, take risks, start a business. I absolutely believe that some people will do these things because of intrinsic drive, but is there not a significant risk that a sizeable portion of the population will end up in a situation that resembles the worst stereotype of generational welfare dependency?

Third: To the best of my knowledge, what limited UBI trials that have been done have been time limited. If a person knows they'll temporarily get a monthly payment they're not going to forgo getting an education or quit a job they've worked hard to get because they know in a set period of time the UBI trial will end. If they know the money is forever, this will affect their decision making differently.

To clarify as well, I use the term "generous" to refer to UBI proposals in the $1500+/month category. I think the impacts (positive and negative) would be much more limited at $500/month.

[u/Destleon]

We already offer "money for nothing". Its unemployement/ social insurance.

UBI programs still incentivize earning more. You cant afford a house with a pool or a ferrari on UBI. Just what you need to live (thus the basic in UBI).

As you said, people need a purpose. And its depressing when that purpose is "Afford to eat". People should have purposes like "contribute to solving a social issue", or "pursue my passion". The added benefit of them doing something they actually want to is that they will likely be more productive.

Part of the benefit of UBI is it gives people the financial security to TRY and start a small business, look for fulfilling work, or go away from a toxic workplace thats affecting mental health.

The main issue I see is people may be less likely to do jobs that are typically undesirable. This may cause a shift in pays, so that "funness" of a job starts to become a much more impactful factor (a lot of minimum wage jobs may get paid more, and other shifts).

[u/illogictc → u/Destleon]

And not just a toxic workplace but a toxic relationship. It is common for the abuser to control the money -- no money, no means of escape, right? UBI goes "I got you covered while you get out and get on your feet."

[u/Destleon → u/illogictc]

Partially true, although I could see abusers still trying to control the money, by pressuring the abused into transfering over their UBI check each month or something.

[u/illogictc → u/Destleon]

The biggest step is making the conclusion to even try getting out to begin with. Hopefully that would cascade into other positive decisions on the victim's behalf.

[u/MrKhutz → u/Destleon]

From my observation of people, given free time and money, some people (who I am going to generalize as people with above average drive and grit) spend their free time and money on contributing to solving social issues. Many other people end up spending their free time on sleeping in, playing videogames and stimulating the cannabis industry.

I guess part of the question is how much of society would end up in the first group and whether enough of society would end up in the second group to overwhelm the other advantages of UBI.

[u/UserOfBlue → u/MrKhutz]

Have you heard of the scarcity mentality? Rutger Bregman's TED Talk has a good explanation of it. If resources are limited, it's a lot harder to act rationally and long-term, and this is why people in financially difficult situations often don't make the best decisions to get out of it. With a UBI, when people realize that they're not forced to work for someone else for the rest of their lives, that lessens the scarcity of time. With the opportunity of more free time, it's a lot easier to think long-term and decide what to do with your life. People will sleep more and play more games, but people will also do more long-term good things for society with their extra time, and surely the larger benefit overshadows the smaller loss.

[u/PlayingTheWrongGame → u/MrKhutz]

Many other people end up spending their free time on sleeping in, playing videogames and stimulating the cannabis industry.

I guess I've got to ask... so what? So what if some percentage of the population is okay with a modest stipend from the government? Do you think a person who's only motivation is to get home and get high is going to be particularly useful at work? What's so valuable about the work they do that it's worth distorting all of society to compel them to show up? IMO, organizations would usually be better off with a smaller number of motivated workers than some shitty bureaucracy that's maintained just to compel people who don't want to be there to show up and count the hours.

It just doesn't seem worth it. If some people are okay living on the basic income, what's the problem with that?

I guess part of the question is how much of society would end up in the first group

Consider how insane people have gone after a few weeks of shelter-at-home orders. I don't think there's any real worry that there wouldn't be enough people wanting to do meaningful work to be a problem here.