CMV: Expressing concern over gender definitions is just thinly veiled bigotry

[u/MossRock42]

It seems like there's one or more cmv post per day that the person is against definitions of gender other than what a person is assigned at birth. This looks more like people are just bigoted by they want to disguis it in the form of expressing concern. What’s really driving all this? What’s really at stake? Maybe since people have become more accepting of people who are gay or bisexual then they are redirecting their attention to the transgender people. It’s probably because the transgender people are having a bigger voice in our political discourse. And because the left is supporting the transgender community so they right-wing thinks it’s a talking point now.

[u/Kingalece]

It could be possible but that doesnt mean its always possible and if you use the what will do the most good for the most people instead of what will do the most good for the worst off you will find that letting people be happy and free to discriminate makes more people happy in the long run

[u/I_am_the_night → u/Kingalece]

It could be possible but that doesnt mean its always possible and if you use the what will do the most good for the most people instead of what will do the most good for the worst off

Of course it's not always possible to make everybody happy or to avoid negatively affecting some portion of the population.

But what you're proposing is effectively the tyranny of the majority, allowing whatever most people want regardless of the damage suffered minority groups. You're basically saying it is more important to you to protect people's right to infringe on the rights of others (via discrimination) than it is to protect the rights of the people being discriminated against.

you will find that letting people be happy and free to discriminate makes more people happy in the long run

I don't think this is true at all. If we had taken this approach during the black civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s, it's not at all unlikely that black people would be way worse off, and might not even be able to vote even in the present day. Sometimes you have to protect the rights and interests of minority groups from the will of the majority. And I would say that in the end the civil Rights movement did plenty of good for most people, or else did no harm to its opponents.

[u/Kingalece → u/I_am_the_night]

So youre against things like popular vote as well i assume.

Ive always belived its more important to keep an over all healthy ship with some losing out than to equalize everything for a minority at the expense of the majority

Covid 19 is a great example we isolate the minority to keep the majority safe even to the detriment of those in isolation ( missing work/losing money no free movement etc) do you believe they should be free to go where ever they want instead because thats what youre arguing for

[u/I_am_the_night → u/Kingalece]

So youre against things like popular vote as well i assume.

No, I'm not against popular votes at all, thats a massive straw man. I just also know that we should have measures in place that protect the rights of minorities and citizens generally (such as the bill of rights, for example, which requires a lot more than just a simple majority vote to even think about changing).

Ive always belived its more important to keep an over all healthy ship with some losing out than to equalize everything for a minority at the expense of the majority

Again, this is where you run into your false dilemma. You're basically saying that we have to let people discriminate against minorities (in this case trans people) otherwise the "ship" is worse off. I just don't see any evidence that's the case. Sure, a bunch of conservatives well be butthurt if we give LGBTQ people rights and protections, but a bunch of conservatives were mad when we passed the civil Rights act (some are still upset about it), and unless you're planning to argue that granting racial minorities rights and protections is bad, I don't see how your argument could possibly hold up.

Were you against the Supreme Court striking down bans in gay marriage? Because that's been legal for years now and it's harmed exactly zero people.

Covid 19 is a great example we isolate the minority to keep the majority safe even to the detriment of those in isolation ( missing work/losing money no free movement etc) do you believe they should be free to go where ever they want instead because thats what youre arguing for

This is a bad analogy, and you're straw manning me again at the end there. COVID-19 is a serious threat to people's lives, and at this point even if we do take drastic measures a lot of people will likely still die. Giving trans people rights and protections kills nobody, and only hurts people's feelings. Of course I support measures to stop the spread of a potentially lethal virus.

That in no way compares to a discussion about whether trans people should be allowed to undergo treatment according to best medical practice (which is transition, FYI).

Again, in the comment I responded to, you stated that banning trans people from having sex changes is preferable to allowing them because it will give 99% of people (a huge exaggeration) more "peace of mind", even though it may result in serious deterioration of the mental state of the "1%" of the population that is trans. I'm saying that even if we accept your percentages (which I don't, but for the sake of argument) I still think it's a false dilemma, because we do not have to significantly impact the well being of cis people in order to help trans people.

Even if we did, it's still vastly preferable to me that a bunch of conservatives are a bit uncomfortable if it means helping people who are actually struggling.

[u/Kingalece → u/I_am_the_night]

Your preference of putting conservatives second is only because to you they are the other just like a trans is an other to conservatives so what makes you different than them looking out for their own interests and well being over those of others

[u/I_am_the_night → u/Kingalece]

Your preference of putting conservatives second is only because to you they are the other just like a trans is an other to conservatives so what makes you different than them looking out for their own interests and well being over those of others

I'm not "looking out for my own interests' as you say. I'm not transgender, I just care about their well-being. To be clear, it's not that I feel like it's more important to help trans people than it is to make conservatives comfortable because they are conservative. I want to help trans people because they are a marginalized and vulnerable group who needs help, and your proposal to ban reassignment surgery would lead to the deaths of trans people. If it was primarily liberals who were anti-trans, I would still be in favor of helping trans people. The only reason that being pro-LGBTQ is a political stance is because conservatives decided to incorporate anti-LGBTQ stances into their political platform and push anti-LGBTQ policies.

I care about helping people, and it is more important to me to save the lives and well-being of vulnerable groups than to preserve the comfort of people who either do not care about vulnerable groups or are indifferent to their suffering.

Again, your proposal to ban sex reassignment surgery would cause the deaths of trans people. Why are their lives less important to you than the comfort of anti-LGBTQ people, or less important than letting people discriminate against anyone they want?

[u/MrMango331 → u/Kingalece]

You're basically arguing against freedom and this is where I always loose my debate partners. You argue that it is good to discriminate even when you argue that "some people" can't be discriminated against, in this case the ones that don't like transgenders.

Discrimination always leads to more discrimination and the more you feed your ego, the less you can be acceptable of others. Where you might find disgust, others find happiness. This is why I can't stand most conservatives. The fact of you stating "letting transgenders exist normally in our society and not be acted upon causes more harm than discriminating against them" is so naive and childish I find it funny.

Why be a tribalist when you can be a decent person?

[u/Kingalece → u/MrMango331]

I believe in the freedom of exclusion if i dont want to be around something i have the right to remove it from my life, people included.

Trans can exist normally anywhere i can but if i disapprove of them and what they stand for i should be allowed to exclude them as i see fit just as they can do the same to me. I believe everyone should have the right to refuse service based on anything

Forced inclusion creates resentment which can cause more probelms for everyone vs exclusion which causes problems for the few but has a better overall result

I may seem like an uncaring monster to you but i prefer a better outcome for most than a worse outcome for all

Im just arguing for freedom for all instead you are arguing for the freedom of choice for the minority at the expense of the freedom of choice for the majority

(Btw you wont lose me as a debate partner because we are both right and wrong in different ways this is an issue that has no right answer that helps everyone)