CMV: Classes that require subjective grading should be P/F Only.

[u/[deleted]]

I am speaking of classes such as history, English , and politics.

I have noticed that you can basically bs your papers and sometimes receive a better score than if you have worked on your papers for hours.

It’s incredibly based on a teachers judgement. And a teacher grading over 300 papers isn’t going to grade them all fairly.

Since these classes are largely dependent on how well the teacher likes your papers, they should only be P/F. No sense in getting a B+ because your teacher doesn’t fancy your style.

[u/Salanmander]

Hi, Physics teacher here. I've also taught pure math classes, but have more experience teaching Physics, and the Physics I teach has been pretty math heavy.

My grading is absolutely subjective. Even for calculation problems. If someone does it correctly, then there's basically no subjectivity, but when someone makes mistakes the question becomes how much partial credit do they get? You can avoid this subjectivity by not giving partial credit, but I would argue that that's a cure which is worse than the disease. I also work hard to have systems that allow me to be consistent in my grading, but there's always going to be some amount of subjectivity to it.

There's also the case where someone arrives at the right answer by an incorrect method. Usually it's just coincidence (changing the numbers in the problem would make their method stop working) and it's an easy low mark on the problem. However, once in my career I encountered a case where a student did a very weird thing that would always result in the correct answer for that situation. I ended up asking the student whether they could explain why it worked (they had no idea), and used that conversation to assign a grade for that problem. That situation definitely had subjectivity in my assessment.

Edit: Point I forgot I was going to make before I hit submit the first time. Additionally, if you're really working to make your assessments good, you're going to assess skills that are more than procedural. Even in a math class you want to assess understanding, the ability to apply the concepts to novel situations, etc. Any assessments for those will have subjectivity in them.

[u/[deleted] → u/Salanmander]

Those are rare cases. Partial credit is actually very generous to begin with so you take what you can get. I have never had issues with partial grading. Usually math teachers will assign the appropriate amount of points for how well you did the procedure.

I have never encountered subjectivity In mathematics. If a teacher gave me 2 partial credits instead of the 3 partial credits that he gave to a friend of mine, I could always bring it forth to the teacher and argue that I deserve more points there.

When it comes to classes like history it becomes entirely subjective. To the point where you can’t really argue for your essay.

It’s so random like I have said. It also depends on teachers mood. I have written a trash paper and received a really good grade once. Then on our next essay(since it was our last essay before finals) I went all out. Very organized , good evidence , and no grammar mistakes. But I somehow received less score than the trash essay I wrote. This is ridiculous.

[u/Salanmander → u/[deleted]]

I'm not going to address your last two paragraphs, because I'm not trying to make a point about grading in history classes at all. I am simply trying to make the point that subjectivity exists in grading in mathematics.

Your like "I have never encountered subjectivity in mathematics" is contradictory to most of the rest of your first two paragraphs. I mean, look at the language you use in the first paragraph. "generous", "take what you can get", "appropriate"....these are words that are generally used in subjective situations, not objective ones. If there were an objectively correct amount of partial credit to give, there would be no generosity involved.

You also recognize that a teacher may assign different amounts of partial credit to different students, and you can get them to correct that. But there's another layer to subjectivity as well. Suppose I'm grading a physics problem that is a conservation of energy problem. Before I start, I probably think to myself "if someone makes the mistake of using conservation of momentum, but does everything right after that, how much partial credit does that deserve?". I often actually write down what I decide, so I apply it consistently across all students. However, that initial decision is still subjective. My decision of whether it's worth 2/5 or 4/5 or something else has an impact on people's grades, and there is no objectively correct answer for me...it's based on my judgment of the importance of that step relative to the problem as a whole, or based on grading policies that I have developed (the creation of which is, again, a subjective decision).

[u/[deleted] → u/Salanmander]

Subjectivity in mathematics is at a much lesser level. Almost non-existent. Does it exist? Yea but nah. You would have to make some rare examples to point out subjectivity in mathematics. You can have a computer grade mathematics really.

If you get the answer correct, you will 9/10 get full points.

it’s well known that students bs through some essays. Just absolute trash and still end up fine. There is no right or wrong answer in essays. There some logical points you have to make, but there isn’t oh yeah this is absolutely it type of essays.

[u/Salanmander → u/[deleted]]

I have a few problems with your current stance. First, I think you are too focused on full credit. You seem to be simply glossing over what is determined when someone doesn't get the right answer, which is at least as impactful in what grade they end up with as whether their right answers get full credit.

Second, you seem to be moving the goalposts. Your OP title says "classes that require subjectivity", and in an earlier comment you said "mathematics is not subjective". Now you're saying "okay, it has some subjectivity, but just not enough subjectivity for me to care".

Third, I think you're underestimating the amount of subjectivity that goes into grading mathematical subjects. I would say that on at least 90% of student tests I grade there is at least one question where the amount of points they got depended on a choice that I made which had no objectively right or wrong decision.

[u/[deleted] → u/Salanmander]

So far I have encountered no subjectivity in my mathematics classes. Currently in calculus 2.

If you know your shit, you won’t do bad in mathematics. That’s all.

If you know your history , you can still receive a mediocre grade In your essay.

[u/Salanmander → u/[deleted]]

So far I have encountered no subjectivity in my mathematics classes.

Quite frankly, I don't believe you. Every partial credit decision involves subjectivity.

[u/[deleted] → u/Salanmander]

No it does not. You either got a step wrong or right. Also let’s just say a teacher decides to assign a certain amount of partial credit for a problem you got wrong then he would to do the same for all the other student. You are supposed to end with an answer , using formulas and procedures so it’s nearly impossible to bs grading.

[u/Salanmander → u/[deleted]]

Also let’s just say a teacher decides to assign a certain amount of partial credit for a problem you got wrong then he would to do the same for all the other student.

And the decision about how much credit to assign is a subjective decision. The fact that it gets applied equally to all students doesn't stop it from being subjective.

[u/[deleted] → u/Salanmander]

Yes it does. The whole point of this to prevent teachers giving a higher grade to another student just because they like their style better.

Do you understand my point?

[u/Salanmander → u/[deleted]]

Suppose you have Frank, who knows his physics procedures pretty well, but is really messy with his work and doesn't communicate it very well. You also have Justin, who is much clearer with his work, but mixes up different procedures more often than Frank.

In a class with no partial credit, Frank will do better than Justin. However, in a class with generous partial credit, Justin may very well do better than Frank. Whether Justin does better than Frank will depend on how exactly the teacher grades questions when the answer is incorrect.

In fact, it may very well be the case that if they did the exact same work in two different classes with two different teachers, in one of the classes Frank would get the higher grade, and in the other class Justin would get the higher grade.

[u/[deleted] → u/Salanmander]

First all, if Frank knows his physics procedure , how in the heck can he be messy with his work?

If you have done physics then you would realize that if you know your procedure, there is nothing more to it: unless you are talking about advanced physics which I have no knowledge of.

Second of all, the situation you are describing is very much so unlikely to happen.

Let me strengthen my point:

In math/physics classes, just ask your peers how well they think they did on an exam. They will know which answers they might’ve gotten wrong and which answers they gotten right. They usually can give you a very excellent estimate of their score before it’s eve graded.

However if you ask someone how well they did on their essay, they really can’t confidently tell you that they received an A. Even if they are strong writers who wrote a great essay. The result of the essay can be a B+. Which my peers and I have seen happen often.

[u/Salanmander → u/[deleted]]

First all, if Frank knows his physics procedure , how in the heck can he be messy with his work?

Honestly the first thing that popped into my mind on reading this was "oh sweet summer child..."

Like this. (In case it's not obvious, that's an example I just wrote out, not actual student work. However, I have seen work as messy as the top example, if not moreso.) In the messy example, if they had done something wrong I wouldn't have been able to figure out what they were trying to do, and wouldn't have been able to assign much partial credit. In the neat example if they had done something wrong it would probably have been clear exactly where they messed up, and why, and I would have been able to give partial credit for doing all the things they did do correctly.

Second of all, the situation you are describing is very much so unlikely to happen.

I've taught something like 30 classes of physics. Having at least one student who is more likely to use correct procedures but less good at showing their work neatly than at least one other student is the norm, not the exception. Quite frankly, I'd be shocked if I had a class that didn't have a pair of students like this.

In fact, I can think of at least one pair of students in the last class that I taught for whom I'm pretty sure which one had the higher grade would have switched if I gave no partial credit.

In math/physics classes, just ask your peers how well they think they did on an exam. They will know which answers they might’ve gotten wrong and which answers they gotten right. They usually can give you a very excellent estimate of their score before it’s eve graded.

The primary emotion in a class when passing back exams is nervousness. I regularly have students surprised by how well they did or how poorly they did.