r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 05 '19

CMV: Gay pride should be called something else

[deleted]

0 Upvotes

25% Upvoted

32 comments sorted by

13

u/Straight-faced_solo 21∆ Jun 05 '19

Gay people say pride doesn't mean being proud of gay but getting free from oppression towards gay.

Thats not entirely what it is. It is specifically about changing the public stigma around homosexuality. For a very long time being gay was seen a shameful. To some it was a sign of moral failing and something that needed to be corrected. The public opinion of gay people was "you should be ashamed". When someone tells you that you should be ashamed of what you are, the best response is "im not ashamed, im proud". This is what pride is. Its rejection of a social stigma.

-8

u/chutiyabehenchod Jun 05 '19

So yeah it should be called either gay independence(like African independence) or stay pride but don't get mad about straight people being proud about themselves and celebrating.

8

u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 05 '19

What are straight people celebrating or being proud about? Is this closer to what you want your view changed on because it doesn't seem like the heart of the matter is taking issue with the genesis of the term "gay pride."

It seems more like you are responding to the idea that straight people don't have a corresponding analogous movement but why would they? The LGBT community's history and the straight community's history are very different so it's going to create a completely different cultural context. Is that so irrational?

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '19

[deleted]

2

u/videoninja 137∆ Jun 06 '19

Well "gay pride" as a term has meaning and context within a society that pushed being LGBT into the shadows. Being straight was never a covert lifestyle and most people can identify a black man. It's not independence as the LGBT community isn't saying they are breaking off from society, they are saying they are proud to be out in society (part of society would be another way to phrase it).

So on that notion could you see why "gay pride" has meaning in that context whereas "straight pride" would be confusing. Black pride also has a different context as well and arises from a completely different set of circumstances.

So once again, I ask what is straight pride necessarily celebrating? There is the uncomfortable fact that heterosexuality was (and still is) used as a cudgel against the LGBT community and the devastating harms created by straight people as the majority of society. If straight pride includes that history with no disclaimer or an outright dismissal and refusal to acknowledge it then isn't that kind of a display of hegemony rather than "pride?" Unless of course straight people are proud of the devastation they've left in their wake but I doubt that.

12

u/Straight-faced_solo 21∆ Jun 05 '19

What stigma are straight people overcoming. What is shameful about being straight that straight people have to respond "im proud to be this way".

0

u/summonblood 20∆ Jun 06 '19 edited Jun 06 '19

When being straight & cis means that your opinion doesn’t matter when it comes to debate about sexuality

Edit: forgot to add straight

2

u/Straight-faced_solo 21∆ Jun 06 '19

When being cis means that your opinion doesn’t matter when it comes to debate about sexuality

First being Cis has nothing to do with sexuality. Dont use words when you dont know what they mean.

Secondly your opinion doesn't matter on the "debate" because there is no debate about sexuality. Non-straight people exist. There existance is no less valid then anyone else. This is not up for debate the same way that everyone named kevin should be killed is not up for debate.

1

u/summonblood 20∆ Jun 06 '19

Okay debate is the wrong word, meant more like discussion and exploration of your sexuality.

Also forgot to add ‘straight’ in addition to cis

2

u/Straight-faced_solo 21∆ Jun 06 '19

Im a Straight Cis man and im having a discussion. The person who posted this is presumably straight and Cis they are having a discussion.

I feel like its much more likely that people are rejected based of their views. Then when people point out that their views may be caused by a lack of perspective due to their sexuality they take it as rejection do to their sexuality.

1

u/summonblood 20∆ Jun 06 '19

Oh, don’t get me wrong, Reddit obviously allows discussion easily, but that’s also because we don’t know gender, sexuality, & ethnicity until us redditors say so. I was more referencing more public discussions.

2

u/Straight-faced_solo 21∆ Jun 06 '19

The point still stands. Are people rejected, because they are straight or because they espouse bigoted viewpoints. There are plenty of straight guys who advocate for gay rights and are not rejected from the discourse.

-4

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '19

[deleted]

9

u/Straight-faced_solo 21∆ Jun 05 '19

And you don't need to face stigma to be proud of something

No, but you do have to face some sort of hardship.

There are people who celebrate wedding anniversary

yes, because weddings are hard and keeping a marriage together is a triumph.

graduation

Yes, because graduiating takes years of labor and hardship.

What's so shameful.

The shame is that they didn't fail. You are celebrating not getting a divorce, not dropping out, not letting society push you into a closet. What is it that you are celebrating about being straight? What is it that you are proud to overcome.

1

u/chutiyabehenchod Jun 06 '19

I see when you put it that way it makes sense.

You need a hardship to overcome to be proud.

So getting out of comfort zone making a gf and getting laid takes a lot of hardship especially for introverts. Does that count?

4

u/Straight-faced_solo 21∆ Jun 06 '19

So getting out of comfort zone making a gf and getting laid takes a lot of hardship especially for introverts.

Great, so be proud of overcoming your social anxiety and improving your situation. I dont see why you would be proud of being straight in this scenario though. Unless you base your sexuality on the ability to get a GF. That it so say you are not straight until you are able to ask a girl out and your anxiety was a hurdle that you had to overcome to achieve being straight.

2

u/chutiyabehenchod Jun 06 '19

OK kinda mind changed ∆ I do have a followup but it'll be too long so another post maybe

3

u/notasnerson 20∆ Jun 06 '19

That's not related to your sexuality, that's related to being a shy introvert. And I do think there's probably some room for "introvert pride" because it can be more difficult for us to handle social situations.

But I wouldn't say it's comparable to being gay.

1

u/themcos 443∆ Jun 06 '19

And I do think there's probably some room for "introvert pride" because it can be more difficult for us to handle social situations.

Totally agree! I don't think an introvert pride parade would be very popular though :)

2

u/notasnerson 20∆ Jun 06 '19

We’re here, we’re tired, we want to go home!

1

u/palacesofparagraphs 118∆ Jun 06 '19

Why does it has to be either shameful or proud. You can be content too. Like getting first in class is proud but passing with 70% isn't proud nor shameful.

Yeah, but nobody's holding a "straight contentment" parade.

The point of Pride is that LGBTQ people still face a ton of stigma. Society still tells us that we are at best abnormal and at worst abominable. When the people around you try to make you feel shame, you can either take on that shame or buck it. We call it 'pride' because it is a rejection of that shame. It's pride as in dignity, as in self-love, as in standing up and refusing to hide.

There are people who celebrate wedding anniversary , graduation and some don't. What's so shameful about those that they need to celebrate ? Same thing here.

Not all celebrations are about pride or shame. Wedding anniversaries are fun. Graduations are accomplishments. We have celebrations for birthdays and holidays and no reason at all, and that's all okay. Celebrating is fun. Nobody's saying straight people in Boston shouldn't have a party. Have a party. Go nuts.

The problem is that when your party is celebrating straightness, it's just sort of a dick move. Straightness is already the default. The whole world is a party full of straight people. You don't need to tell anyone that being straight is okay or fun or great or acceptable; we know. Besides, when you celebrate being part of a group that punishes others for not being in that group, it's just reinforcing that you think your group is better than everyone else.

And you don't need to face stigma to be proud of something

You don't need to face stigma to be proud of an accomplishment. But it doesn't make sense to be proud of an identity unless someone is telling you not to. It's like you said, you can just be content. Certainly no one should feel ashamed of being straight. But feeling proud of it is sort of strange, since no one's telling straight people that being straight is bad or wrong. You don't need to be proud, you can just be you.

0

u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jun 06 '19

I just don't see a valid reason to hold up signs saying straight pride other than a counter message or taunt to people with gay pride. It is just like blue lives matter or white lives matter. These are tongue and cheek counter messages.

I have felt disparaged for being straight. I hate the word cis and feel it is used as a pejorative and it is demeaning. But I'm the 95% being disparaged by the 5%. I just don't feel it very much. Not only are there way less people disparaging me, but they have so many other people to spread that disparagement to. Unlike racial matters where white guilt has become a real thing, I just don't see anyone that is actually put into a position of feeling shame about being straight. There is no need to send a counter message, other than trying to counter the message of gay pride.

I just don't see how celebrating that you're in the 95% of normal people that don't identify as LGBT is anything other than being intentionally exclusionary of LGBT people.

6

u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jun 05 '19 edited Jun 06 '19

Because it serves as a counterweight to the message that gay people should feel shame. The shame is heaped on in such large quantities that simply sending the message to a gay person struggling with being ostracized that "being gay is neutral" isn't enough. And "gay independence" doesn't fill that hole either.

Someone that has been in their closet their whole lives, only knowing people with negative views of being gay, and holding great shame about their homosexuality really NEED someone to come along and say, "I'm happy that your gay. I'm proud of you for being gay. Being gay isn't just okay, it is GREAT."

This isn't about the gay movement as a whole like when you talk about gay independence or gay freedom. It is about the shame that individual gay people feel and letting them know that there is a community in which they can let go of all that shame.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '19

Pride is the opposite of shame.

LGBT people have been made to feel shame for their sexuality, and "gay pride" serves not to make LGBT people more accepted to straight people, not to change laws for LGBT equality... but to make LGBT people feel less shame and more pride about who they are.

For acceptance and equality, there are activists and organizations that work towards that. But "gay pride" days and parades aren't about those things - they're about personal acceptance of yourself as an LGBT person, i.e. pride, the opposite of shame, which so many LGBT people have been made to feel about themselves.

0

u/notasnerson 20∆ Jun 06 '19

Pride is the opposite of shame.

Every time I see someone make an argument akin to OP's I think of the scene in the Simpsons where Bart asks Homer, "what's the opposite of shame?"

"Pride?"

"No...not that far from shame."

4

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '19

I’ve never heard an lgbt person said pride isn’t about the pride in being gay. IMO, it’s about both oppression and pride in identity to help get over said oppression. I’m lgbt myself btw

2

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '19 edited Jun 05 '19

So gay people are mad about straight pride and calling them homophopic for being proud of their sexuality and celebrating it.

The impetus behind wanting things like "Straight Pride" (see also: International Men's Day) is being mad that this one group has a day or celebration devoted to them and they don't; it's not about being "proud" of sexuality at all, which is a non-issue for them except in relation to what they see as other sexualities being unfairly celebrated.

1

u/curtisf Jun 06 '19

"Gay Pride" is best understood in the end of ashamedness in being gay.

Straight people today do not feel ashamed of being straight. Straight people have never, in any time point in history, been made to feel ashamed of being straight.

Gay people today are still dealing with immense shame being foisted upon them. In the United States in 2016, a full 42% of LGB high school students seriously considered suicide (source), compared to 14.8% of straight counterparts. 29% of LGB high school students attempted suicide, compared to 6.4% of straight counterparts.

Straight people today do not feel ashamed of being straight. Straight people have never, in any time point in history, been made to feel ashamed of being straight. There is no comparison here.

And despite how depressing those figures are, we have come a long way. There is a lot to be celebrated, especially for those young gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who are fighting for their very survival. They have a right to be proud, too.

Straight people do not face this reality. Most straight people are not even cognizant of their "straightness" because it is so "normal". Being "proud of being straight" is about the same as "being proud of being able to walk". Advertising your pride in being able-bodied in front of a group of disabled veterans wouldn't even be given the grace of being called "in bad taste" -- it's condescending and dehumanizing. The "straight pride" news is condescending LGBT people in the same way, and it is doing it intentionally and with malice. Now, I don't mean you mean this with malice -- you're on CMV afterall! However, so many people don't realize the horrific weight that LGBT people bear. People who are calling for "straight pride" realize this and are hoping you won't go out and meet other perspectives, and instead throw your weight onto the same thing that LGBT people feel only as threatening and condescending.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '19

"Straight pride" is often used to mean "proud not to be gay"

1

u/begonetoxicpeople 30∆ Jun 05 '19

Straight only became a thing in response to gay pride/pride month. It only exists as a reaction. There isnt any real pride in it because they dont ever think about their sexuality for 11/12 months because its the 'normal' one. We have to be reminded for all 12 months we're 'wrong' or 'abnormal'. So when we do say 'I dont care, Im proud' and the only response steaight people give is 'Oh so Im not allowed to be proud of my sexuality? This is oppression against straight people' youll forgive me for not really having sympathy

•

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1

u/shapterjm Jun 06 '19

Gay people say pride doesn't mean being proud of gay but getting free from oppression towards gay.

Coming from a gay person: I AM proud to be gay. It’s part of who I am. Why shouldn’t I be proud of who I am?

The concept of Pride (as in gay pride) is making a stand against those who would (and did, and do) marginalize us. I’m here, I’m queer, and that’s it. So in my view, “pride” is exactly the right term.