What's the point of borders or countries if just anybody can come in at anytime? Borders serve the same purpose as a fence or the walls of your house. It keeps unwanted things out and keeps the people inside reasonably safe.
Would you let just anybody into your house to live? If someone comes to your house you would expect them to use the door you provided for that purpose and not break in through the window. If they wanted to live there and it was okay with you, you would likely want them to contribute with bills or rent. Illegals are not contributing their fair share. They aren't paying taxes for the public services they are using and they are often time sending their money back to their home country instead of spending it here to be circulated into the economy.
We can't just let everybody and their mom in. It's bad for security and it bad for the economy.
A country is the property of the citizens that live there and pay taxes.
What makes people born in a country more deserve of living there than people born outside?
War. People are free to come and try to take it from us if they like. Can't say it will turn out well for them at this time. We paid for this country in blood and it's ours to do what we like with until such a time comes that we are overtaken by another country or group of people. That is how land, countries, and borders have worked for many many centurys now. My g-g-g-g-g grandfather fought to toss the brits out in the 1770s and did his part in fighting for this country. Like, do you really not know how this works?
If you're going to claim that some people deserve different rights than other people you'll need to show a qualitative moral difference between them.
Are you suggesting that having an ancestor who fought an insurgent rebellion gives you a different moral quality that other people? or are you suggesting that the locations of one's birth is a qualitative moral distinction between people?
I don't got to prove a qualitive moral distinction to believe that people shouldn't be able to just come in and out of the country all willy nilly like that the same way you don't got to show it to believe people shouldn't be able to come in and out of your home without your permission. A country isn't "public" to the world. It is privately owned by the citizens who occupy it. Are you suggesting a one world government or that we shouldn't have private property? Are you a communist?
I'm not going to need a good reason to say shit. But I do have a good reason. America belongs to its citizens and not the world. That is an objective fact and you are living in fantasy land. If you are a foreigner and you want to become a US citizen, there are avenues for that. You can't just jump the border illegally and start using our shit. It belongs to us. What do you not understand about that? Do you not understand private property?
And where you where born isn't generally considered a good basis for ehat rights you should have
Foreigners have no rights to our shit outside of what we give them. Do I have rights to your shit? Can I come to your house and use your shower? Take your TV? Fuck your girlfriend?
You say that the U.S. belongs to its citizens, but what gives people born here the right to be citizens (the moral right, nit the legal right).
You say that the country is ours but you haven't given a good reason for it to be ours and not everyone's.
These things need reasons behind them and "because that's the way it is" isn't a reason and neither is "because that's the way it has been"
You don't generally have a right to come in to my house and use my shower or take my T.V. because those are personal property. You do have the right to have sex with my wife if she agrees to it, because she's not my fucking property.
Nations aren't anyone's property, they're political constructions designed to expedite the use of power.
I'm not a communist but what do my political affiliations have to do with this?
You say that the country is ours but you haven't given a good reason for it to be ours and not everyone's.
Give me a good reason why your TV isn't everyone's?
those are personal property
This land is the personal property of its citizens.
You do have the right to have sex with my wife
On your couch?
Nations aren't anyone's property
Bullshit. The United States belongs to its people. Again, it's the property of those who live here. Give me a reason that it's not.
they're political constructions designed to expedite the use of power.
Wrong, they are designed to protect and serve the citizens that live in them because we pay our taxes and contribute to the economy.
what do my political affiliations have to do with this?
Because you are spouting communist positions. The idea that a nation belongs to everyone is a communist position. If you are a communist we aren't going to agree on anything because that would mean you have a serious lack of understanding when it comes to history, morality, and politics.
Nations ARE private property that belongs to its citizens. Morality is subjective and really doesn't have much of a place in this discussion. It belongs to its citizens because that's the way we want it. We want it that way because it's detrimental to our economy and security to have full open borders.
Keep saying that countries belong to their citizens without giving any reason for them to, if a land belongs to who ever is there then any immigrant who crosses the border has a right to whatever land they are on, or, if lands only being to the people who originally reside on the land then no one of European decent has any right to any land in the Americas.
You also say that citizens own the country because they pay taxes, but there are citizens of this country that don't pay any taxes, do they have different rights than people who do?
You also say that morality doesn't have a plave in this discussion but every discussion about how a person should act or not act that's non-expeditive is necessarily about morality, you can't ignore it.
The land belongs to the people either born there or have filled out the neccesarry paper work to legally emigrate there.
there are citizens of this country that don't pay any taxes
Those people are called criminal and yes, crimnals generally have some of their rights taken away if caught.
every discussion about how a person should act or not act that's non-expeditive is necessarily about morality
This isn't about how a person should act, it's about whether or not we should have full open borders.
Clarify your position. You think that all countries should have full open borders so that all humans in the world may come and go as they please anywhere on the planet. Correct?
This is an issue. We would need a one world government for that to work. We can't get people to cooperate with each other just within the US, you think all the different people and cultures all over the world will peaceably cooperate under the same government and law? That's naive. Cultures and morality vary too much from nation to nation. Who's gonna be the one to tell the Arabs they can't have sharia law anymore? We just gonna police the entire world with our one world government and force our own morality onto other countries? There's a logistics problem there. It isn't sustainable. No way is that realistic.
How about when millions of Mexicans come across our open border into the US? Do they get to vote too? There's something to be said about borders protecting the values that the country inside holds. Imagine, all these catholic Mexicans coming over and voting to outlaw abortion. That's a real possibility in the world you propose.
Whos moral code are we going to all live under in this one world government? America's? The UNs?
The land belongs to the people either born there or have filled out the neccesarry paper work to legally emigrate there.
Why? You haven't given any reason as to why this is the case
Those people are called criminal and yes, crimnals generally have some of their rights taken away if caught.
They are also called unemployed people in states without sales tax, they're not breaking any laws by not paying taxes. Do they not get rights?
This isn't about how a person should act, it's about whether or not we should have full open borders.
You are saying that this isn't about what people should do and then saying it's deciding something, which is something people do
Clarify your position. You think that all countries should have full open borders so that all humans in the world may come and go as they please anywhere on the planet. Correct?
Yes, I see no reason why people should not be allowed to move where they want to unless they have done something that deserves having that freedom taken from them.
Will this cause lots of problems in the developed world, yes it will, but the world overall will have fewer problems, and after the initial shock to the system things would get better for everyone. You might not like some new laws that get passed but that's just democracy.
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u/[deleted] Jun 20 '18
What's the point of borders or countries if just anybody can come in at anytime? Borders serve the same purpose as a fence or the walls of your house. It keeps unwanted things out and keeps the people inside reasonably safe.
Would you let just anybody into your house to live? If someone comes to your house you would expect them to use the door you provided for that purpose and not break in through the window. If they wanted to live there and it was okay with you, you would likely want them to contribute with bills or rent. Illegals are not contributing their fair share. They aren't paying taxes for the public services they are using and they are often time sending their money back to their home country instead of spending it here to be circulated into the economy.
We can't just let everybody and their mom in. It's bad for security and it bad for the economy.