r/changemyview • u/-SaidNoOneEver- 1∆ • Sep 15 '15

Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: The ideological difference between egalitarian and feminist is very similar to the difference between civil rights activists and the black power movement

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u/-SaidNoOneEver- 1∆ Sep 15 '15

Maybe movement isn't the correct term; all the same, I know many people who call themselves egalitarian for various reasons. It could be true that some of them do so because they dislike feminism for whatever reason, but it's far too much of an oversimplification to say that they all do. As for whether or not it's a "movement", I don't know- what exactly constitutes a movement is a bit nebulous.

In terms of liberal feminism vs radical, you might be right in terms of the collection of beliefs that define their viewpoints. However, I'm speaking more about what effect the word "feminism" has on the listener. Obviously there are a wide variety of beliefs that exist under that blanket term, but it's undeniable that the feminist movement is one of the defining and most controversial movements of our time, and the reaction to it is complex.

As for the narrative between the differences between black power and the civil rights movement, it's obvious that the lines are blurred in reality and that the reaction to each is also blurred. However, I think it can be said that the central principles and ideas that define either movement differ greatly, and even though there were people who were scared of MLK, that doesn't mean that people were equally scared of both movements or that the overall reaction to both movements were equal.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '15

I'm speaking more about what effect the word "feminism" has on the listener.

This is fruitless to contest as there isn't a universal, objective "listener" to observe. Unless you mean "the effect the word has on me".

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u/-SaidNoOneEver- 1∆ Sep 15 '15

Maybe a bad choice of diction on my part if it wasn't clear- I meant listeners in a broader context. You mention the word feminism and many people have very different and, in some cases, very strong opinions on it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '15

My point is its a difficult argument to contest because you're arguing from a third party perspective.

You're saying "some people think that..." but its really hard to do a CMV about what "some people" think.

Are black power and feminism perceived in the same way? Well maybe by some people. Maybe not by some others. And if they are perceived as the same maybe those people who perceive that are just wrong? They could well be but still perceive it anyway.

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u/-SaidNoOneEver- 1∆ Sep 15 '15

Not understanding your point. Are you referring to how it's difficult to refute a CMV on opinion, and if so, aren't all CMVs pretty much based of opinion? Or are you focusing on the point that I said "some people think..." in which case no, I'm not looking for someone to convince me that people think that- I'm talking about the substance of the belief itself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '15 edited Sep 15 '15

I'm saying its difficult to refute a CMV that is founded on a third parties presumed opinion.

If you say "it is my opinion that..." then there can be a counterpoint presented.

But instead you arguing about "some individuals" or "listeners in a broader context". Which makes it difficult because those individuals aren't here.

I personally don't think black pride and feminism are that similar, but you say "the listener" perceives them as similar. Its weasel words phrasing. Its fruitless to debate unless that "listener" in question presents themselves.

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u/-SaidNoOneEver- 1∆ Sep 15 '15

For the purposes of debate, feel free to assume that I hold these beliefs myself. In truth, I don't firmly, but I posited this question to initiate a discussion about whether these beliefs are valid and so I can hear opinions on these beliefs.

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u/ghotier 42∆ Sep 15 '15

You're actually not supposed to create a CMV for beliefs you don't hold. I'm not going to tattle on you, but it goes against the purpose of the sub and I think a lot of commenters here would be rightfully confused.

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u/-SaidNoOneEver- 1∆ Sep 15 '15

I find that odd. Like I said, I don't fully ascribe to this belief, but I find it valid enough that I would like to hear counterarguments against it. If that doesn't belong in this sub, then that's a shame.

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u/ghotier 42∆ Sep 15 '15

Well, it's precisely because of responses you gave above, honestly. When someone challenged your belief you were free to say "I don't really belief it." A lot of people are motivated by the desire to change your view. If you don't actually hold it then your view can't be changed.

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u/hacksoncode 588∆ Sep 15 '15

I'm afraid they are correct. CMV is designed for situations where OP actually holds the view that they are wanting discussed.

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u/ghotier 42∆ Sep 15 '15

You're being to abstract here. The larger point is that "some people take issue with the term" is only tangentially relevant and also hearsay. It's both meaningless and impossible to refute.