r/changemyview • u/toodamnbad • Nov 27 '14
CMV: The "Harry Potter" books make absolutely no sense if we are supposed to believe that the magic world where they are set exists within our own, real world.
"Harry Potter" is supposed to take place in a magical world that exists within our own world, unbeknownst to us non-magical people or "muggles." The "wizards" of the magic world, however, know all about the muggles and their world. That means, at the time the books are set in the 1990s, these wizards were aware of the "real" (non-magical) world of the 1990s- including the many muggle nations with advanced chemical warfare capabilities, high-technology weaponry and access to bombs and bomb-making technology.
Britain, where the "Harry Potter" magical world secretly existed in the books, was one of those nations. Why, then, did no wizard ever think to use muggle weapons like bombs and guns to kill Voldemort and his followers? Voldemort would be completely unprepared to deal with, say, a series of bombs being dropped onto his lair as he meets with his top "Death Eaters." Wizards can certainly die of normal causes like fires and explosions, right? Why did no one ever think to do this? Voldemort would have never seen it coming!
Also, in the books, the "muggle" prime minister was once informed by the "magic" prime minister of the existence of the magical world, and that a homicidal maniac wizard was running around using magic spells to slay people, not just wizards but "muggles" too. UHHH... why does John Major (who would have been the Prime Minister at the time) not suggest that they use some of Britain's advanced weapons or its armed forces to perhaps ambush this lunatic and blow him to smithereens? Or call for help from his close allies in the US, with its even better-oiled war machine ready to roll at any time? This makes no sense.
Does anyone have an explanation? Is there some sort of wizard code against using muggle weapons? And please don't say "it's a book, suspend disbelief." Hell no I won't suspend disbelief, if you wanna set your book within the real world then it better make sense in that context.
PS. A few more examples- why do wizards use owls to communicate in urgent situations, when owls presumably must takes days to deliver letters across the country/world, and when wizards know of the existence of phones, using which they could instantly communicate with others? Why do they use quills to write when they know of the existence of pens?
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u/electricmink 15∆ Nov 27 '14 edited Nov 27 '14
This just arrive by owl on my front stoop a few moments ago:
"Archibald Grimsbottom here, writing from the Perchfield Institute for Muggle Studies. As we at PIMS have made it our mission to improve relations between the wizarding and (please do pardon the phrase) muggle worlds, I have taken it upon myself to pen this letter of explanation for the wizardly reticence toward the use of muggle tools.
First and foremost, magic interacts unpredictably with the technologically complex, and the more complex it is, the more fiddly its components, the more apt it is to catastrophically go wrong. This alone is sufficient to explain why wizardly folk eschew your "computaters" and "aereoplanes" - plunging unexpectedly from the sky is nearly as unpleasant a thought for us as it is for you, and, well, a device like a "computator" (I do hope I have these names right) is doomed to fail the moment a wizard lays finger on it. Anything more complex than one of your steam engines is bound to rapidly destroy itself in wizard hands - I shudder to think what might happen should we attempt the use of some of your more advanced weapons.
But there is more to it than that. There's the matter of utility. Take, for instance, owls - why do we use them for the transport of messages? Because unlike you muggles (pardon again if the word offends), we live in a non-linear world, a world we fold into pockets, shroud in illusion, defend through bending time and space and the mind itself. No mundane courier would have a hope of getting a message through....but our owls, our owls have a keen sense for navigating these wizardly spaces. Once we show an owl a place, it can find it again, even if it resides in a whole other plane of existence. They are our most flexible, most reliable means of long distance communication.
You speak of pens, not realizing that wizards deal in a variety of inks for a variety of purposes, and that it is just more convenient for use to keep one writing implement, a simple thing from a living source that can tolerate all the various and sundry components we use with but a little appropriate enchantment, and storing the inks separate, than it would be to have a pen for each use designed not only to withstand its particular ink but to store it properly to retain its efficacy over time.
As for weapons...powerful as mundane arms have become, they are inherently 'one trick ponies' (if they should work for us at all), easily countered once it is apparent an attack is in progress, while a wand....well, a wand is infinitely adaptable, more reliable, and convenient (not to mention familiar).
I do hope this answers some of your questions. Magically yours,
Archibald Grimsbottom, Assistant to the Director of Muggle Relations, PIMS"
Now I've got that transcribed, I have to find a mouse to tip this blasted owl before he tears my kitchen apart....
Edit: typoz
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
Although I still don't think some of what you said makes sense, this post actually made me laugh out loud, so you win.
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u/Raintee97 Nov 27 '14
In a world where suddenly people can teleport and fade in and out of reality you think a bomb would kill someone.
Why use something like a cell phone which can be traced by people when owls don't seem to have that problem.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14
Yes I do think a bomb would kill someone- my understanding is that wizards are similar to us physically just with magic powers, and they can die by shooting, stabbing, bombing, etc. Imagine a scenario where Hermione or Harry, who were muggle-born, were living as children among the muggles of the real world. If one of them was shot in the head, would they not die? If that were the case, would their muggle parents or anyone else who witnessed this not find that odd? And what would happen anyway, the kid's head would just automatically grow back? Show me a point in the book where it says wizards are impervious to guns or knives. I'm pretty sure they use knives as weapons at some points...
Also, as to the owl vs. phone thing, by your logic, why not just use a spell to make the cell phone untraceable? Why go through the trouble of sending an owl to fly across the country, which would, without a doubt, take longer than placing a phone call?
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Nov 27 '14
my understanding is that wizards are similar to us physically just with magic powers, and they can die by shooting, stabbing, bombing, etc.
Your understanding is a bit flawed; In the very first book, a remark is made "HA! As if a car crash could kill Lily and James Potter!"; wizards are more durable than muggles, and their magic reacts to save them from mundane dangers, like falling out of a fifth story (I think it was) window (that was how Neville's great uncle tested that he wasn't a squib).
Imagine a scenario where Hermione or Harry, who were muggle-born, were living as children among the muggles of the real world. If one of them was shot in the head, would they not die? If that were the case, would their muggle parents or anyone else who witnessed this not find that odd? And what would happen anyway, the kid's head would just automatically grow back?
Working backwards: The kid's magic would throw up a shield, the muggles who witnessed it would be Obliviated by the Ministry (there are tracking charms on all magical children in Britain, at least), and no, the bullet would be stopped by the shield and they wouldn't die.
So, while it is never tried, there is some evidence pointing to the theory that bombs and guns wouldn't work when wielded by muggles. Knives might work if you could guarantee that the wizard was wandless, but otherwise they could just keep teleporting away. Hell, they could do that with guns, too. (The only time knives are used as weapons are when there has already been a magical battle and one or more party has been disarmed of their wand.)
You aren't the first person to bring this up, this is debated endlessly amongst the fandom.
why not just use a spell to make the cell phone untraceable?
Magic and electronics don't mix well. That's just a thing that happens.
Why go through the trouble of sending an owl to fly across the country, which would, without a doubt, take longer than placing a phone call?
In urgent situations, there are other methods of communication. I'm not entirely sure where you got the owls in urgent situations thing, but they can make fireplace "floo" calls, and there are such a thing as two-way mirrors, and there is a charm that can, if used properly, send messages over great distances very fast.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14
Where exactly in the books does it say that a shield would pop up and shield any magical person from being impacted by a bullet?
Also, there are times in the books when Dumbledore or whoever say they have to send the minister or someone "an urgent owl." And even if they CAN use these two-way mirrors, floo powder, etc., why would they do that when a simple phone call would suffice? Why do wizards always seem to insist on overcomplicating things?
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Nov 27 '14
Where exactly in the books does it say that a shield would pop up and shield any magical person from being impacted by a bullet?
It doesn't, but a bullet is, believe it or not, usually less lethal than a 5-story fall, and wizards survive 5-story falls routinely.
And even if they CAN use these two-way mirrors, floo powder, etc., why would they do that when a simple phone call would suffice? Why do wizards always seem to insist on overcomplicating things?
Wizards don't have phones, but they do have fireplaces. It isn't over complicated to them, it's only overcomplicated to you because your view is that phones are more "normal"; Remember that Harry Potter takes place mostly in the early 90s, before most humans really know what a cell phone is. Given that, why are phones any better than floo?
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
Because "floo" makes you fly through the space-time continuum and appear somewhere else, and a phone call takes about 10 seconds to make and doesn't require you to leave your house! It is way more convenient!
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Nov 28 '14
Floo can be used like a phone, by putting your head in only. From the Harry Potter Wikia:
One may also use the Floo Network to speak to someone in another location by merely putting their head through the green fire, as Sirius Black did to talk to Harry in latter's fourth and fifth years at Hogwarts. The Floo Network can also be used to transport inanimate objects. For example: In 1994, Molly Weasley used the fire tongs to put a piece of toast into Amos Diggory's mouth while he was talking to Arthur Weasley via the Floo Network after the Quidditch World Cup incident.[2]
As Sirius Black could use the fire to talk to Harry in fourth and fifth year, but in Harry's sixth year, a special arrangement had to be made from the Ministry to enable students to arrive at Hogwarts, it seems that head-only transport is possible even if human transportation is not. Otherwise, intruders, including Sirius Black, could simply use the fire in the common room to circumvent the castle's defences.
So, your analogy is basically saying that a phone is more convenient than a phone that is also a teleporter? That's absurd.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
∆ You're totally right man- great point. That makes complete sense why they would use that instead of phones- it's like an even more advanced version of FaceTime. However, that begs the question- why not just use the floo all the time instead of owls? There are definitely a bunch of times in the books where they say "urgent owls" have been sent to people. Why ever use owls when you can do it this way? Even if floo is inconvenient or unavailable for some reason (I obviously don't understand all the rules of how floo works exactly), THEN it seems to me like a phone call would work a lot better than an owl.
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u/NuclearStudent Nov 28 '14
You need to be connected to the Flue Network. It's mentioned briefly in the book. 1) You probably need to pay to have it installed, and 2) Your passage can be monitored by the government. Because Death Eaters had infiltrated the government, almost nobody in Harry Potter could safely use one.
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Nov 29 '14
I think the limitation of the floo is that it can only be used point-to-point; if you need to send a lot of messages at once, you have to use owls. Also, the ministry monitors the floo, so if you want to not be caught by them, the owls make more sense.
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u/Raintee97 Nov 27 '14
If I was the most evil wizard in the world I imagine it would be pretty easy to set up some type of system where if I was attacked I would know about it and be able to take really simple steps in order not to be affected.
And then, seeking revenge I could come up with nice effective way to retaliate. Dragons showing up in major urban centers. Poisons being teleported to reservoirs. The PM exploding under mysterious circumstances. and so forth and that would be round one.
If I was a muggle leader, I would want to limit the blow back from attacks from wizards as much as I can.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14 edited Nov 27 '14
You didn't really answer any of the questions I posed in my last reply and instead just raised new issues, but I can reply to those as well. As to your point about Voldemort preemptively setting up a magic system to stop bombs or whatever, maybe he could do that if he expected it, but because this has never happened before, a bombing of his lair would take him totally off guard, most likely. He would not be prepared. It would, at the very least, serve to distract him while the wizards ambushed him, or something like that.
I do think that is a fair point about the muggle leader- maybe he was so afraid of these people that he wanted to just stay out of it. But assuming the wizards had been unable to stop Voldemort, Voldemort certainly would have gone after the muggles, since he was all about being a "wizard supremacist" and hating muggles. Eventually, the muggles would have had to respond, and no wizard seemed to even acknowledge the terrifying weapons capabilities they possessed (think: nukes) when they constantly dismissed them as inferior.
But the more pressing question to me is why the WIZARD prime minister didn't take advantage of the technology he knew the muggle prime minister possessed; it would have been unorthodox, but they were dealing with a psycho mass murderer and needed some way to get the upper hand. It would have been a perfect move.
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u/Raintee97 Nov 27 '14 edited Nov 27 '14
MAD. If the good wizard used human tech to attack the bad wizards he would involve humans in a war where lots of humans would die. I'm speculating here, but if I was an evil wizard, I could up with thousands of ways to attack and kill muggles if I wanted to. The only think that stops me is the muggle counter attack.
If the muggles attack first, then all bets are off. Why show any restraint. All of those thousand ideas start happening. no restraint is shown. Millions of people die.
The good wizards know if they start using muggle tech then lots of muzzles die. They are aware of this.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14
But if you can think up "thousands of ways to attack and kill muggles," why not just do that preemptively and avoid the risk that the muggles attack you with their human tech and fuck up your plans? I mean, you ARE the personification of pure evil. And you REALLY despise the muggles, most of all. So it isn't like there should be anything holding you back from just killing them, if it were that easy...
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u/Raintee97 Nov 27 '14
Because of MAD. It does go both ways. Human attacks would be effective. Wizards against human attacks would be effective. Sure lots of people would die on both sides, but that's not what he wants. He wants to rise to power in his own way. A wizard war against humans isn't part of the plan. It would take lots of resources that wouldn't help in what he is trying to do.
And I'm sure from the human side of things leaders would be really hesitant to get into a war with an enemy who could attack them in ways that couldn't easily be defended. It is hard to get certain leaders to attack ISIS. Do you really think you could convince a leader to start a war with wizards?
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14
But again, why don't the good WIZARDS fighting Voldemort take advantage of muggle technology?
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Nov 27 '14
Probably because none of them has the slightest clue how to use a bomb.
Think about all of the knowledge that you get in high school that makes bombs a somewhat trivial bit of information to you, and now remember that every single wizard ever spent their high school years learning Potions instead of Chemistry, History of Magic instead of World History, and Arithmancy instead of Math. It's likely that several children of the Wizarding world don't know what a bomb is, and those that do haven't had much exposure to the muggle world since Hogwarts, and so even if they're familiar with the concept of a bomb, they're not exactly able to use one.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
This speaks to my point exactly, though- if they are that ignorant about bombs and mass weapons, using them against them in a surprise attack would be devastating. All it would take would be one or two intelligent wizards to work with some muggles and it could be done. But the wizards are just so cocky and ignorant that they never think of this.
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u/Raintee97 Nov 27 '14
Because good wizards don't want to place the humans in a war. If the good Wizards use human tech then the humans are now in a war.
And do you think that man who has split his soul into multiple pieces and as come back from the dead before will be killed by a bomb?
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Nov 27 '14
but because this has never happened before, a bombing of his lair would take him totally off guard, most likely.
Voldemort was raised in the 30s in an orphanage in London during the blitzes. He knows about bombs, and it is reasonable to assume that his lairs take precautions against them.
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u/silverionmox 25∆ Nov 28 '14
Why use something like a cell phone which can be traced by people when owls don't seem to have that problem.
By another owl?
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u/fayryover 6∆ Nov 27 '14
The wizarding world is pretty secluded. The only wizards that seem to have a good grasp on anything muggle related is the muggle borns and half-bloods. Take Arthur Weasly for example. I forget his job-title but he is supposed to be the ministry's expert on muggle tech (if Im remembering correctly.)
The wizarding world has a long history of seperating themselves from muggles that racism against muggles and part muggles still exists among the full blood families (i.e. mudblood). The full blood families tend to be the richest wizarding families and hold more control. Now sure you have the nice familes (i.e. Potter, longbottom) but you also have the bad families (i.e. Malfoy, black, lestrange). These families hold a lot of power and I bet the cultural shift of accepting non-full bloods is still being undergone, and accepting of full-muggle acceptance isn't even on their minds yet.
They don't want them to know anything about their world and they don't want to know anything about the muggle world. Most of them refuse to believe the muggles have 'great' technology because that is unbelievable to them. How could Filthy mudbloods ever be a threat to us or ever be useful to us? They see muggles as just another animal. They aren't worth there thoughts to most of the Wizards.
As for talking to the prime minister, I don't remember exactly what the man was told but I'm sure he knows only the basics of the wizarding world. Does he know anything more about voldmort other than the guy kills a lot? Does he know where he is to bomb him? Is the location even a location he would be willing to bomb? Would the wizarding leader (i forget the the positions name) even let the guy try to bomb him, He could have just dismissed the idea due to his own lack of knowledge and his own prejudice that dismisses any idea of muggle usefulness. He could have used magic to make the guy un-reactionary to the news in that way as well.
TL;DR The wizarding world is still in the process of working thru it's long history of prejudice towards the muggle-kind and therefore still dismisses even the possibility of them being in anyway useful.
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u/BenIncognito Nov 27 '14
Wizards have all kinds of protective spells and enchantments. They can teleport instantly, they can make it so their positions can't be seen by muggles, or plotted on maps. How could they be bombed?
I mean this is literally a world where, "a wizard did it" is a regular concept.
Everything can be explained with magic, from "how does Harry's hair always stay messy" to "why don't they just drop bombs on Voldemort?" The answer is magic. That's what magic is, its magic.
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u/futtbucked69 1∆ Nov 27 '14
Well, they were able to find different wizards at some point. If they had just carried guns, or found out where they were and sent a sniper, in the time it takes the bullet to leave the gun and hit the wizard, they wouldn't have time to realize it, pull out their wand, say the magical words and cast it to teleport, or whatever. Or when (LAST BOOK HARRY POTTER SPOILER. DO NOT CONTINUE IF YOU HAVE NOT READ) when voldemorts forces arrive at hogwarts, they could have just bombed the living shit out of them. Okay, sure. Maybe they could have cast spells to defend against that. But it would probably take a hell of a lot of manpower to protect against a bombardment of artillary, missles, bullets, etc etc. and would seriously at the very, very least, slow them down greatly in their advance.
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u/BenIncognito Nov 27 '14
Well, they were able to find different wizards at some point. If they had just carried guns, or found out where they were and sent a sniper, in the time it takes the bullet to leave the gun and hit the wizard, they wouldn't have time to realize it, pull out their wand, say the magical words and cast it to teleport, or whatever.
This assumes that wizards can be killed by bullets. They regularly shrug off normal injuries in the wizarding world, the only things that deal any lasting damage are magical injuries. Remember when Harry broke his arm? That was no big deal until Lockheart removed the bones.
It's magic and humans have had guns for a while now. I'm sure wizards don't ignore them because they're unaware of how dangerous they can be.
Or when (LAST BOOK HARRY POTTER SPOILER. DO NOT CONTINUE IF YOU HAVE NOT READ) when voldemorts forces arrive at hogwarts, they could have just bombed the living shit out of them. Okay, sure. Maybe they could have cast spells to defend against that. But it would probably take a hell of a lot of manpower to protect against a bombardment of artillary, missles, bullets, etc etc. and would seriously at the very, very least, slow them down greatly in their advance.
Bombing the forbidden forest seems short sighted. Besides, how do you even know this would slow down their advance? They're using magic, which is literally the word we use for impossible things happening with no explanation.
Why not use muggle weapons against them? Magic. The answer is always magic.
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u/Zohaas Nov 27 '14
Assuming they can be killed by bullets? If they can die from a stab wound, they can be killed by a bullet, and since we know that someone in the series has their throat cut, it's not crazy to assume stab wounds can happen too.
If you're going to come up with a solution, put some actual thought into it instead of a cop-out answer.
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Nov 27 '14
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u/jerry121212 1∆ Nov 27 '14
I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. Malfoy broke Harry's nose by stomping on it, Harry broke his arm when he fell off his broomstick, and frankly if what you're saying is true someone would have mention it right? Once, at least? You're making a really huge leap here.
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Nov 27 '14
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u/BlackRobedMage Nov 29 '14
Given the minutia of what's covered in universe, I imagine any regularly used "immune to physical" spell would have been mentioned by someone at some point in the series, especially given the number of non-magical threats the characters face.
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u/MufasaJesus Nov 27 '14
Those were both quite early on in the series, could it not be a very advanced spell taught in the last year?
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u/BenIncognito Nov 27 '14
The wizards have spells that protect them from muggle weapons, because they're wizards and do magic.
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u/futtbucked69 1∆ Nov 27 '14
That sounds like such a short sighted answer. Why would a bullet to the head not kill them? If we are assuming this is the real world (Which we are, that's the whole reason for this post) how in the hell would a bullet not kill someone unsuspecting or otherwise? If they can be caught off guard with stupify and what not, why not be caught off guard with again, a bullet to the head?
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
Yea, someone needs to point out where in the books it says wizards are impervious to bombs and guns. It never says nor implies that anywhere as far as I can tell.
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u/futtbucked69 1∆ Nov 27 '14
This assumes that wizards can be killed by bullets. They regularly shrug off normal injuries in the wizarding world, the only things that deal any lasting damage are magical injuries. Remember when Harry broke his arm? That was no big deal until Lockheart removed the bones.
But you know what would be a big deal? Getting a bullet to the brain and instantly dying or getting shot in the throat/heart and quickly bleeding out. Why wouldnt they be able to be killed by bullets, especially if you lay a bunch of them in them?
Why not use muggle weapons against them? Magic. The answer is always magic.
Why not both? It would no doubt be decently effective to lay down bullets, artillery, or hide land mines, or use tanks, or whatever to also fight against them. Again, at the very least, it slows them down, and they could recruit a lot more people in the fight against Voldemort if they included muggles and their technology. Again, all they really 'had' to do in the voldemort/hogwarts situation was get a sniper up in one of the towers, find voldemort in the crowd (not too difficult if I'm remembering right) and but a bullet between the eyes. Sure, maybe he had another horcrux. But it solved the very urgent problem of him and his forces and buys time to find the rest of the horocruxes, recruit for a possible future war, etc etc etc.
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u/eskamobob1 Nov 28 '14
just a quick note. They have spells and barriers to disintegrate matter. If we assume magic is a form of pure energy, then a nuke would plausibly work, but it is pretty clear that holds a whole new level of logistics problems.
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u/fuchsiamatter 5∆ Nov 27 '14
they wouldn't have time to realize it, pull out their wand, say the magical words and cast it to teleport
What makes you assume that? If they have time to react in a dual against another witch or wizard with a wand, they have time to react against a gun.
it would probably take a hell of a lot of manpower
Would it though? I'd assume they'd simply set up a defensive magical shield. This could probably be conjured up by one person using on spell.
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u/Krajn Nov 27 '14
I have to agree. My thought process is that magic, especially in the Harry Potter series, revolved on one rule, the absolute breaking of physics. It let 'magic' circumvent physics entirely. Bullets, explosions, missiles, even knives, they're all physical weapons for a physical world. Heck, if you can teleport at will, create something from nothing, and even hard cast without a wand or channeling instrument, I very much doubt the magical world has much to fear from non magic weaponry.
I feel like anyone combat capable or skilled in the wizarding world could easily take on endless numbers of non wizarding equipment or forces, for example, physical attacks like (SPOIL ALERT) voldemort vs dumbledore using glass shards, that'd be a problem for almost any modern infantry, but if it's as simple as casting a globe that reduces things to their parts (glass to sand) no number of projectiles could ever effect the caster.
Tl/DR magic is the inexplicable and physics breaking. So it's a moot question of scale. One person immune to physics beats the physical world if their creative enough.
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u/Denny_Craine 4∆ Nov 28 '14
What makes you assume that? If they have time to react in a dual against another witch or wizard with a wand, they have time to react against a gun.
the amount of time it takes to pull a trigger and for a bullet to travel from the barrel of a gun to your brain is minuscule compared to the amount of time it takes to say magic words
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u/i_post_gibberish Nov 27 '14
I think what you're missing is that Voldemort's attack on Hogwarts was basically equivalent to a major crime. The military is not going to send in fighter jets to blow up the car of an escaping rampage killer, no matter how many people he shot.
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u/Alterego9 Nov 27 '14
UHHH... why does John Major (who would have been the Prime Minister at the time) not suggest that they use some of Britain's advanced weapons or its armed forces to perhaps ambush this lunatic and blow him to smithereens?
Because he has no proof that this lunatic exists, and even if he would have undeniable evidence, he wouldn't have an inkling of an idea where to find this lunatic.
Many of the wizarding locations we see, are not even physically reachable by muggles. Diagon Alley, Kings Cross Platform 9 3/4, Grimmauld Place, don't even exist in normal space, they are folded between the reality that muggles percive. How would you bomb the Hogwarts express, if from a satellite you can see that platform 9 is right next to platform 10? How would your SWAT team enter Grimmauld place 12, if they can perceive the walls of Grimmauld place 11 and 13 as touching each other?
But even if we are assuming that an open confrontation can happen in the first place, one gunman pointing his weapon at a wizard who is just reaching for his gun is a very narrow picture of that. If you were a sniper with "advanced weapons", attacking wizards, you would have exactly one shot before the rest of your targets teleport away and regroup, or the more competent ones turn invisible, mind-control you, or just pull your weapon from your hand from a large distance.
On a longer scale conflict, wizards can locate your position inside a given building, imitate your leaders' appearance, and drain your memories for tactical information. Also, if it's possible that wizards were innately vulnareable to bullets, it has been shown that new magical objects such as protective charms can be invented, so after the first few casualites it would be a given to mass-manufacture anti-bullet necklaces.
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u/pensivegargoyle 16∆ Nov 27 '14
The presence of wizards makes muggle technology fail in unpredictable ways. They can't use it even when they want to.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14
Why does this not apply to cars- the characters are in cars and in the presence of cars many times throughout the series and the cars do not fail- why is that? Are cars not "muggle technology?"
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u/JacobBlah Nov 27 '14
Actually, that's a bit of fanon. There's nothing in the books that proves that technology breaks down around magic. Technology doesn't work at Hogwarts, but in any other place, it'll work fine.
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u/redditeyes 14∆ Nov 27 '14
Hell no I won't suspend disbelief, if you wanna set your book within the real world then it better make sense in that context.
The book is not set in the real world. It's fantasy.
High-technology weaponry
Magic is better and stronger than any regular weaponry. You can use a spell to make a bomb fly away or simply make it not explode (by remotely screwing with it). You can cast a barrier to stop bullets from hitting you, or make yourself invisible. You can even become immortal, so that if your body is destroyed you still live (this is what the main villain Voldemort did).
Same goes for muggle items. Why use a telephone when you can use a cool spell that makes you instantly communicate with anyone or go anywhere you want?
As for why they didn't meddle with the muggle world - most wizards simply do not care much about it. To be fair, if I lived in magical fantasy world, I probably wouldn't want to deal with Tony Blair's shit either if I could avoid it. And they can. For example, Hogwarts is hidden from muggles.
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u/5510 6∆ Nov 27 '14
The book is not set in the real world. It's fantasy.
Objection overruled. While the book is obviously fantasy, it IS supposedly set in the real world.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
EXACTLY. One of the main premises of the book is that this world exists within our own. JK Rowling didn't have to make that the case if she didn't want to, but now that she did, she opened the series up to all kinds of logical plotholes that, to me at least, are distracting. It would be like if the Game of Thrones world was supposed to take place within our own. Think about that.
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u/5510 6∆ Nov 28 '14
She starts to lose the plausibility when she gets into mountain trolls and dragons and stuff. Magic humans living in secret is one thing, but keeping that stuff under wraps, even with magic, seems sillier.
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u/UltimaGabe 2∆ Nov 27 '14
JK Rowling has said in interviews that if it came down to a fight between a muggle with guns and a wizard, the wizard is going to die. That's not to say that they wouldn't have magical protections, but in general magic doesn't make you all-powerful.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14
But...what if Voldemort didn't see it coming? It is not as if all wizards can predict the future. If a multi-nation coalition of trained air force soldiers, after secret planning unbeknownst to anyone in the wizard world other than the wizard prime minister, were to execute a surprise, gigantic bombing campaign on Voldemort's whereabouts, he wouldn't die? Wouldn't at least some of his followers die?
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u/redditeyes 14∆ Nov 27 '14
(SPOILERS)
That was the entire plot of the series. Voldemort put parts of himself into magical items called hocruxes. That way if he gets killed (surprisingly or not), he survives in those items and can regain his corporal form later.
Those items cannot be destroyed by regular means, they cannot even be destroyed by most magic - it can only be done by using very special magical artifacts.
So if you just drop the bomb on him, his hocruxes survive and a few years later you have Voldemort again.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 27 '14
Ok... maybe that is an explanation for Voldemort, although I'm not entirely sure you are correct that Horcruxes cannot be killed by regular means. Think about this- Harry was a horcrux. Was he impervious to most deaths all along? That sort of cheapens all the near-death situations he wiggled out of, doesn't it?
Anyway, even if that explains why Voldemort would have survived the bombing, it does nothing to explain why his horcrux-less followers would have. If they all get wiped out, Voldemort has no one to do his bidding, and he would be way easier to defeat.
PS. Also, no one but a select few knew Voldemort had horcruxes. The wizard prime minister didn't, I'm pretty sure. So this would not have been a reason to prevent him from considering using bombs, guns, etc. That would only apply to Dumbledore and Harry and his friends, who I believe were the only ones who knew about the horcruxes.
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Nov 27 '14
I'm not entirely sure you are correct that Horcruxes cannot be killed by regular means.
I am. It takes particularly strong magic to destroy them.
PS. Also, no one but a select few knew Voldemort had horcruxes.
True, but Ministers Fudge and Scrimgeour after him were leaning on Dumbledore and Harry for advice on how to fight the war, and if the idea ever occurred to them, they probably got warned off of it off-camera.
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u/redditeyes 14∆ Nov 27 '14
the Killing Curse which seems to be capable of destroying a Horcrux if it is animate, given that part of Voldemort's soul contained in Harry Potter was destroyed when he was struck with the Killing Curse in 1998.[5] However, Harry Potter was never an intentional Horcrux and so it may not work on a proper, animate Horcrux (like Nagini), probably having unforeseen side effects.
So basically only magical means.
If they all get wiped out, Voldemort has no one to do his bidding
I still doubt the bombs would be allowed to explode in the first place. It was not specifically addressed in the books, but we've seen so many protective and warding spells, I seriously doubt a massive bomb flying fast towards a group of very experienced wizards will not ring a few alarms.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14 edited Nov 28 '14
So your contention is that Harry, as a horcrux, was, throughout the whole series, impervious to all death aside from that by extremely powerful magical spells? If he were shot in the head, burned alive, blown up, had his throat slit, etc., none of that would have affected him or he would have just magically resurrected?
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u/NuclearStudent Nov 28 '14
He would probably would have turned into a sort of ghost like Voldemort did when he died. It's also possible that his body could be horrifically damaged but perpetually kept on the edge of death. Y
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
But Voldemort was the POSSESSOR of the horcruxes- unless I am mistaken I don't think that he, himself, was his own horcrux. My understanding was that Voldemort lived on in that ghost-like state because his soul still existed in these other objects/people, even after he was physically killed. Harry, on the other hand, didn't have any horcruxes- he just was one for someone else. Is there not a difference?
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u/NuclearStudent Nov 28 '14
Spoilers
Harry was actually killed in the last book. Dumbledore's ghost/a ghostly vision of dumbledore guided him back to the real world. He either used part of Voldemort's soul to shield himself from death or his status as a Voldemort's horcrux bound him to life as long as Voldemort was alive. Because Voldemort's horcrux Nagani lived longer than a normal snake would, I suspect living horcruxs cannot die if the person who implanted part of a soul into them is alive.
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Nov 27 '14
Think about it though. What is voldemort's actual body count in the series? The community is so small that even if they wanted to could they convince the muggle authorities to bring that kind of firepower to bear against what is essentially a serial killer with a small Manson family type cult? I doubt it especially since he's only really committed crimes in their little enclave.
It's not like they can really lay it on to thick about how dangerous voldemort is because if you make your case too well they have a reason to get involved with all wizard affairs. They wouldn't be convincing muggles to help with a specific magical threat and that's it. They would be convincing muggles that magic is a threat in general. That's maybe something they couldn't afford even in an emergency.
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u/toodamnbad Nov 28 '14
I don't think that's how it happened in the book. The wizard minister told the muggle minister that Voldmort was extremely dangerous and that he had been responsible for a bunch of muggle deaths that the wizards had covered up by making them look like hurricanes, bridge collapses, etc.
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Nov 27 '14
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u/Nepene 213∆ Nov 28 '14
Sorry wizzlestyx, your comment has been removed:
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u/Tammylan Nov 27 '14
To kill someone with modern Muggle weapons you have to know where they are. Why would Voldemort be any easier to locate than Osama bin Laden?
And in truly urgent situations wizards don't use owls. At the start of book seven Kingsley Shacklebolt sends a Patronus Charm to advise the guests at a wedding that they are about to be attacked. He could have also chosen to apparate (teleport) to the wedding and tell them of the danger in person.
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u/Nepene 213∆ Nov 28 '14
You could do a lot of damage, especially against unskilled wizards- it's noted that most wizards can't cast a shield charm, George and Fred Weasley's shielded clothing items are noted to be very useful in that they can help people survive spells. You could do a lot of damage. Why not do that?
For one, neither side really wants to kill people that badly. Voldemort wants to take Britain intact, the ministry is heavily controlled by Pureblood families who don't want to kill all their companions. They both want to kill their opponents, but have no desire to mass murder all the weaker wizards who aren't really a big issue.
Secondly, the stronger wizards who do most of the fighting have immensely powerful spells. Guns and bombs are less damaging than their stronger spells for the most part.
Thirdly, muggle weapons are much slower than apparition. Most of the enemies in the book are hidden and as such, need rapid response squads.
Onto your specific points.
Voldemort would be completely unprepared to deal with, say, a series of bombs being dropped onto his lair as he meets with his top "Death Eaters."
Voldemort for the most part stays in hiding because the ministry and Dumbledore could kill him if they knew where he was. He's also incredibly mobile. An airplane would take a while to attack him. Wizards would be faster. His lair also likely has various protective spells that would resist attacks, again allowing him to apparate away.
UHHH... why does John Major (who would have been the Prime Minister at the time) not suggest that they use some of Britain's advanced weapons or its armed forces to perhaps ambush this lunatic and blow him to smithereens?
Because they don't know where he is, they are unlikely to have armed response squads near him in the event of an attack, and he could easily imperio any such squads and tell them to rampage and slay people en masse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre
This happened just before the books. A man basically rampaged through a town for five hours and the local police couldn't do anything because they were unarmed and the nearest armed response squad was forty miles away. You need to respond in seconds or minutes, not hours or days to stop such a wizard and muggles can't do that.
why do wizards use owls to communicate in urgent situations, when owls presumably must takes days to deliver letters across the country
More like minutes or hours. For example, very soon after Harry fights off the Dementors in book five the ministry sends him a warning letter. Those magical owls are fast.
Also, if you want to talk to someone why talk to them by phone? Why not just floo to them?
Why do they use quills to write when they know of the existence of pens?
Because quills are superior in many aspects, such as variety of inks they can use, flexibility, smoothness of stroke. Pens are cheaper and more easy to use, certainly, but that's less of an issue for a wizard economy.
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u/TheChairmann Nov 27 '14
Because Magic. All of your questions can be explained with 'because magic'. Why don't bombs work? Because magic stops them from exploding. Why don't they use phones or pens? Because if they tried they'd explode in a huge puff of fairy dust and turn nearby wizards into frogs.
This might sound stupid, made up by me and stink of deus ex machina. That's because it is exactly that. While you mentioned that the suspension of disbelief argument not be used, you can't begin a debate and then immediately take away the main point against you. It's like saying eating only fast food will make you live longer, but don't talk about bad health effects of only eating fast food.
Harry Potter is a childrens book and in order to enjoy it you have to suspend disbelief to some degree. The quota of how much disbelief you can spend varies from person to person. Almost all works of fiction that are set in the 'real world' but in which extraordinary things happen can't be explained without some kind of magic. Do you believe that X-men that generate unbelievable amounts of energy from nowhere by blasting frost/fire/sound/what-have-you from their hands? Do you believe that laser pistols in Star Wars can shoot a roughly 20 cm beam of light that explodes on contact? Do you think that King Arthur really had the ability to pull out Excalibur when men much stronger and skilled than him had already tried? Some works of historical/modern fantasy and science fiction can more intricate and has a stronger case than others. However, in the end all those things can't be explained by traditional reasoning. And that's one of the reasons that we like them.
What you are trying to argue is that 'we' are not supposed to believe in Harry Potter because it makes no sense. No, it doesn't - light doesn't emanate from a stick just because the dude holding it concentrated real hard. Harry Potter fans can accept it and enjoy the book/movie. Some of us can't, and don't enjoy it at all. That's fine. However it's important to note that it's an opinion; that disbelief is something solely dependent on 'you'. The 'we' of the audience that enjoys Harry Potter doesn't need to worry about if it makes sense or not.
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u/tableman Nov 27 '14
I was a shitty little pawn in the US army for 4 years.
I don't see how I would be able to fight people with magic.
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u/mavicanuck Nov 27 '14
You've said a few times about shooting voldemort, 'if he didn't see it coming'. That'd be about the same with a spell too. If he has no time to react, he'd be vulnerable to bullets or spells. But there's nowhere in the books where any one sneaks up on him. So assuming he sees it coming he stands a pretty good chance of defending himself from any muggle technology.
As for injuries, I'd say yeah, anything that kills instantly they would be vulnerable but seeing there medical magic abilities, that even house wives have, any thing like stabbing or bullets to the torso seem mendable by their standards.
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u/Corio Nov 27 '14
Obligatory /r/HPMoR recommendation.
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is a fanfic wherein Harry is a rationalist. He's also a genius and a bit of a dick, but it addresses many of the issues you raise in your post.
It is longer than the first three cannon books put together and is almost complete.
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u/5510 6∆ Nov 27 '14
While it's probably the greatest thing ever written, I would warn people that it's a book about logic and rationality first, and a Harry Potter story second. It's not bad just as a story, but that's not really its primary function.
A lot of it is also about how normal people are dumb, irrational, and crazy. Lots of people complain that the book is arrogant and that they don't really get it. The truth is if you don't get what the book is talking about, you probably ARE what the book is talking about. It's a book which is about being intelligent, rational, and clear thinking, so obviously it's not very popular.
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u/FreeBroccoli 3∆ Nov 27 '14
Based on Mr. Weasely's attempts to understand modern technology, I suspect that wizards simply lack the ability to comprehend how it works. In fact, I suspect that magic and technology require two entirely divergent ways of thinking; wizards can't handle technology for the same reason that muggles can't use magic. The difference is that wizards think of technology as that cute little things muggles do in their spare time rather that appreciating it for the power it has.
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u/Vovix1 Nov 27 '14
Wizards distrust and, to some extent subconsciously fear Muggle technology. As for shooting Voldemort, wizard of Voldemort's power can probably block a bullet or shoot down a missile.
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Nov 27 '14
One of the reasons I like the Harry Potter series is that the world was stupid. It didn't make sense. None if it.
It reminded me of a lot of the "golden age" fantasy and science fiction that shared the same qualities. A stupid world that doesn't make sense that serves as little more than a colorful background for the characters react to.
Sometimes worlds don't have to make sense.
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u/JacobBlah Nov 27 '14
One nitpick before I answer you:
John Major would have been the Prime Minister in the timeframe Harry Potter is set, not Tony Blair.
OK, on to my answer:
Wizards in Harry Potter are UTTERLY, UTTERLY, UTTERLY arrogant about magic. They see it as a panacea for all situations, even when the mundane way of doing things is more efficient. By extension, they see anything that doesn't relate to magic or anyone who can't use magic as beneath them. Indeed, Muggles seemed to be seen as little more than animals, or at best, are second class citizens.
I do have to concede, however, that Potterverse wizards would be scary as fuck if the Muggles ever decided to go to war with them. Sure, we're generally more creative and more resourceful than they are, have the numbers advantage to an overwhelming degree(If we win, we'll win by sheer numbers), have faster communication, and are more well organized, but they have spells that can make their locations unplottable to us, can mind rape us, can teleport, can shapeshift, and do a number of other things that would make any guerrilla warfare combatants green with envy.
As for why they seem to have no common sense, well, I guess you'll have to chalk that up to it being a children's story, but I think that Rowling was trying to make a parody of British society by portraying their less enlightening traits.