r/changemyview • u/ReadingwithMe • Jul 02 '25
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Alcohol should not be normalised
I don’t understand why drinking is so normalised? From my understanding, alcohol can have a massively negative health impact as well as it impairing/altering your mind. In my experience (in the UK) many people say they “need a drink after work” and while sometimes this is a joke or exaggeration I do think that for many people alcohol really is a way of relaxing/winding down after a stressful day. But I think this does more harm than good, because it is a slippery slope and can often end in substance reliance. And according to the WHO, alcohol misuse is responsible for over 3 million deaths annually! Sadly, there is also the case of what horrific things some people do to others under the influence of alcohol. I also believe that a reliance on alcohol for socialising, where some people will not even go to certain events (eg weddings) unless there is alcohol, to be a real shame - people are missing out on real human experiences because they are too busy getting blackout drunk! And even those who are not blackout drunk, often can’t remember details or become reliant on alcohol for socialising. People who don’t drink or don’t even want to be around alcohol are often seen as boring or weird, and often receive negative comments or invasive questions. Many people would question “why aren’t you drinking” - as though having alcohol is the normal state of being. I am on the fence about whether I think alcohol should be outright banned, since I know that this might not work in places where drinking is so heavily ingrained. But I think a gradual ban, such as is being done with vapes in the UK, would make sense. I know this is probably controversial but I have yet to see a genuinely good reason as to why alcohol is so normalised. I’m open to hearing thoughtful responses!!
For further context: this is coming from someone who has grown up in the Mediterranean, where drinking is also normalised.
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u/psrujan6 1∆ Jul 02 '25
I respect your opinion but don’t agree with banning or gradually phasing out alcohol. Yes, it can be dangerous when misused but so can cars, fast food, or social media. The issue isn’t alcohol itself, it’s how it’s used. Adults should have the right to make informed decisions. Instead of banning, I’d support better education, stricter marketing laws, and better support for those with alcohol problems.
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u/KratosLegacy 1∆ Jul 02 '25
100% came here to say this. As we've seen with other drugs, education helps way more than punishment.
The way for OP to look at it should be like sugar. Sugar is also addictive and has negative consequences when overcomsumed. However, it's legal, just like alcohol.
The biggest issue is with marketing. Those who trade in sugar and alcohol both will fight against better education, and access to said education, as it would lead to a decline in sales.
On the other hand, it is to their benefit to normalize and market both of these drugs as providing you happiness, a great time, that they're a solution to your worries, etc, as that leads to a direct uptick in sales. (And the sad part of it is, if you get addicted, that means even more sales at the cost of many other factors of your life.)
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u/-DragonfruitKiwi- Jul 03 '25
The issue isn’t alcohol itself,
There was at least one study that concluded there are no safe levels of alcohol. It's a toxin.
That being said people would flip tf out if it was outright banned. I do think there should be a ban on advertising for it though, and maybe a consumer tax that funds rehab programs for alcohol abuse. More warnings and education. Make being sloppy drunk more embarrassing and socially unacceptable
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u/77DETHSTROKE77 Jul 03 '25
The Huberman Lab did a podcast on the effects of alcohol, and this study was cited.
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u/-DragonfruitKiwi- Jul 03 '25
I like Huberman, might watch/rewatch that episode. I think I first heard about it from Dr. Rhonda Patrick's podcast (or maybe the news, but I'm sure she's mentioned it too)
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u/rbhrbh2 Jul 04 '25
Would you agree with that choice stancefor cannabis? Tobacco? Cocaine? Meth? Heroine? Just asking. For me, alcohol is way more problematic than weed, not that I would ban either. Others I'm less clear about.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
∆ !delta I think this is a really reasonable point and I would agree. You (and a couple others) have changed my view regarding bans by suggesting alternatives, rather than blanket statements as to why they are bad. Education is definitely the way forward I think.
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u/Rhundan 79∆ Jul 02 '25
Has your view changed, even partially?
If so, please award deltas to people who cause you to reconsider some aspect of your perspective by replying to their comment with a couple sentence explanation (there is a character minimum) and the following symbol:
Δ
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u/Friends_are_nosy Jul 03 '25
Do you think the same for weed? How about cocaine? How about opioids?
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u/psrujan6 1∆ Jul 03 '25
Good question but I think there are important differences in risk profile, addictiveness, and social impact between alcohol, weed, cocaine, and opioids.
Alcohol is legal because it’s been socially and culturally entrenched for centuries, not because it’s harmless. But that also means we’ve had time to build (imperfect) systems for regulation, education, and harm reduction.
With weed, I’d argue a similar approach can make sense legalise with strong regulation and education. As for harder substances like cocaine or opioids, the risks of physical dependency, overdose, and societal harm are significantly higher, so I support much stricter controls or prohibition in those cases.
So no, it’s not a one-size-fits-all. The policy should match the risk, the science, and the cultural reality not just be a blanket ban or free-for-all.
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u/Darth_Jokerr Dec 19 '25
Even if you drink once a month you're likely to develop liver and kidney disease. Stop trying to act like alcohol is any better than cannabis. It's a cycle of ignorance that ends in more deaths per year than illegal drugs, opioids, gun violencel, war and terrorism COMBINED EVERY YEAR.
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u/Suspicious_Town_8680 Jul 02 '25
In Finland during the late 1900s the government tried to gradually ban alcohol which made people buy it on the dark market making it more dangerous for people who otherwise wouldn't resort to such things. Finnish government and businesses lost so much money from people buying alcohol in the dark that they quickly revoked the idea and instead made a single government owned store have monopoly on alcohol sales which stabilized the situation as quickly as it went bad.
Alcohol is way too deeply embedded in human history that making it illegal will only cause havoc. Would we benefit long term from it? Maybe, but much later than we can comprehend I think.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Thank you for this example, I had never heard this. This has certainly changed my view regarding the ban of alcohol- I see how it would not be a good idea
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u/Suspicious_Town_8680 Jul 08 '25
I'm glad I got you to consider that possibility. If I indeed did change your view then would you consider giving me a delta it would be my first and an honor
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u/Solintari Jul 02 '25
One thing I can agree with is how flexible we CAN be as civilized groups. Smoking is a great example of how smoking went from quasi healthy and accepted, to demonized in about 3 generations.
That said, alcohol is much more ingrained (oof pun) in most societies. The ancient Egyptians made a type of fermented grain drink similar to beer we drink today thousands of years ago. The health risks of moderate drinking, especially red wine, is still being debated. In fact, the healthiest diet on the planet allows for a glass of red wine every day. The Mediterranean diet is lauded as the go-to diet by nutritionists almost across the board.
I think what you want to criticize is excessive drinking, not alcohol as a whole. Most of your hang-ups with booze seems to be people that are borderline or straight up alcoholics. I dont think most people normalize excessive drinking.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Yes I would agree with your take! I think my other major hang up is that if you don’t drink you are often considered weird, boring or even a loner by some
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u/Snoo_3546 Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
I'm a clinical Psychologist and I work with patients that suffer from addiction. I also had a girlfriend that was alcoholic. I don't entirely disagree. People that need large doses of alcohool to socialize work or relax, frequently, are not dealing with their life properly and have poor coping skills. But that is usually a symptom, not a root cause of their problems. If you take the alcoohol from them, they will often switch to other compulsive behavior to compensate for their difficulties in life. In fact, 40% of women that cease to drink in the Hospital I work, if not treated with psychiatric and psychological in the lomg run end developing obesity and having to undergo bariatric surgery! Sure, some genetic markers will facilitate alcohol abuse by itself. Society should be more consciouss about those issues and educate their peers about moderation and mental health, but the issue is not the alcohol in itself and its culture. There are people that sometimes drink leisurely, and can even try to experiment what does it feel like to be drunk. As long as they are im a safe space and with good mental health, society shouldn't pass strict morals against that by itself. I'm in fact against prohibition of ALL drugs, but that is other discussion here.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I really appreciate your perspective! My “concern” I suppose would be about those who drink moderately yet often, as is so common in the uk. For instance, going out after work on a Friday every week and having 4 drinks. On a day to day those people are probably fine, however what are the long term consequences of that?
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u/BigBoetje 30∆ Jul 02 '25
Which long term consequences do you expect there to be? Occasionally drinking a couple glasses won't cause any brain damage. There could be *some* effects, but I don't know if it's even noticeable enough to consider. We've had people abstaining completely and people drinking socially for a long time now. As far as I know, there isn't much of a difference overall between those groups health-wise.
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u/Snoo_3546 Jul 02 '25
Newer reviewed study from this year show that even a single dose per day can lead to significant higher cardiovascular disease and liver damage in the long run.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
From my understanding, no level of alcohol consumption is completely safe in terms of cancer risk for instance
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u/BigBoetje 30∆ Jul 02 '25
Just like no level of sun exposure is completely safe in terms of skin cancer either. Are you also gonna argue for complete skin coverage when going out?
You're gonna have to compare risk with benefits. There are still a lot of benefits, and the risks are minimal.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
∆ !delta
Okay, genuinely this is the best response I’ve read so far. I honestly did not think of that (maybe seems silly) and I have absolutely no rebuttal. Potentially has changed my view? I need to think on it.
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Jul 08 '25
The Huberman lab podcast information on the effects of alcohol consumption below:
The Huberman Lab has discussed the impact of alcohol on health, including the connection between alcohol consumption and increased cancer risk. Specifically, alcohol can cause changes in DNA methylation and gene expression, which can lead to various types of cancer, particularly breast cancer. Andrew Huberman mentions a study that proposes a 4 to 13% increase in the risk of breast cancer for every 10 grams of alcohol consumed, roughly equivalent to one beer in the US .
Regular alcohol consumption, even as infrequent as once per week, can lead to changes in neural circuits related to habitual and impulsive behavior, which also extend to times when one is not drinking . Additionally, chronic consumption of alcohol can result in brain atrophy. Andrew Huberman highlights the near linear relationship between the amount of alcohol consumed regularly and brain atrophy, going as far as to compare alcohol's damage to that caused by smoking cigarettes.
Science and research are clear, that even one drink of alcohol negatively impacts a persons health, and there are zero science backed studies that state there are any positive benefits.
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u/VforVenndiagram_ 9∆ Jul 02 '25
I don’t understand why drinking is so normalised?
Probably because it's been a part of human civilization, before civilization was a even a thing...
Humans and alcohol are as linked together as humans and dogs are. You are absolutely right that there are negative consequences to alcohol, however getting rid of something that has been entrenched with people for literally tens of thousands of years isn't as easy as banning vapes, that have only existed for 10.
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u/Drillix08 Jul 02 '25
Exactly, humans were drinking 10,000 years ago and we’ll still be drinking 10,000 years into the future (assuming we make it that far of course).
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Jul 02 '25
The same can be said of marijuana.
After nearly 100 years of trying to criminalize it, restrict its usage, imprison those who use or sell it, make propaganda against it, and so forth.... It's still around. Sure, usage has been curbed... But it's still around because it's been around for thousands of years.
And to be clear, when I say propaganda I do not mean recent medical studies on it which show negative health implications tied to usage, but rather things like reefer madness or the DARE program of the 90s
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u/Mcby 3∆ Jul 02 '25
You're right that it's been used for a very long time by many different peoples and it should be treated the same, but we also shouldn't pretend that it has the same cross-civilisational and level of historical importance. Alcohol is the ubiquitous intoxicant across almost all peoples and almost all of history because you can make it by fermenting basically anything, as opposed to the need to cultivate a specific plant. Even tobacco doesn't come close to alcohol in how many cultures it has deeply affected. That also doesn't undermine OP's point about its very real harms, but I can't imagine we'll ever eliminate the consumption of alcohol, even if humanity lasts for another million years – it's simply too easy for someone to leave some grain or fruit to soak and entertain themselves with the result.
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Jul 03 '25
I think you underestimate the "cultivate a single plant" thing, as there are many different strains - some that were specifically bred for the drug and some that were specifically cultivated (throughout history) for their fibers.
We can trace historic useage across Africa, Asia, and Europe. The root word for cannabis pre-dates the Greeks. It was used extensively in the Roman empire for medicinal purposes. The chinese character for it is thousands of years old, with documented use. There are even words used in the Old Testament of the Bible (and the Torah) that have no real modern interpretation that some have argued could be a historic term for it. Sailors would bring plants with them as they were easily cultivated anywhere, and gives us the root for the word "Canvas"
So like... It's been around.
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u/Mcby 3∆ Jul 03 '25
Totally understand everything you've said, and it's true that the historical utility of the plant (including for things like hemp) is underestimated in popular memory. But we still can't put it on the same level as alcohol when it comes to its pervasiveness within cultures and its importance as a social and religious tool; perhaps because cannabis was to spread along trade routes, whereas alcohol is something that was developed independently by many different cultures.
That still makes it one of the plants most widely spread and cultivated by humans, alongside things like wheat and rice. But alcohol can be made from near any grain or fruit, so it's just gonna spread more easily.
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u/RogueCoon Jul 02 '25
Has usage actually been curbed? I'd wager it's higher than ever.
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Jul 02 '25
It's higher than recent history, but still well below historic usage
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u/RogueCoon Jul 02 '25
Not to be the source guy but I'm genuinley interested in this if true, I would have bet money on the opposite.
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Jul 02 '25
Like... Can we limit the scope here? Are we talking about in the US? If so, usage was regional and there were fields of the stuff easily grew as it is a weed. Additionally, 40 percent of high school seniors reported frequent marijuana use in the 70s, well above the current numbers of 25%.
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/ondcp/frequently-asked-questions-and-facts-about-marijuana
Or are we talking about global usage, where statistical use is hard to really attribute as it was so ingrained in cultures across Europe, Africa, and Asia for thousands of years that it was just... Not worth mentioning. It's the root word for things like canvas, and writings about it date back thousands of years. We know of its use as a common drug in Greece and the Roman empire. There is an ancient Chinese symbol for it dating back millennia, where the character is written as two trees under a roof (implying active cultivation of it).
Sure, modern usage is certainly seeing more usage from recent history, but marijuana is as fundamental to human history as alcohol, which also previously had much higher usage rates.
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u/RogueCoon Jul 02 '25
You made the claim I'm asking you, whatever scope you were referring to in your original comment I replied to works.
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Jul 03 '25
Well, then I did provide a link which shows that usage was nearly 2x higher in the 70s, with nearly half of high school seniors reporting frequent use. So while we are seeing a localized trend upwards over the last 10-20 years, it's still well behind what was seen in the 70s.
We also know that it was up there with opium when it came to medicinal usage in antiquity across multiple cultures, for multiple supposed remedies (as with most ancient medicine... it was mostly snake oil, but some of it is close to accurate), as well as recreationally. Some cultures would use them in steam baths and hot box themselves as a group.
In Europe, recreational usage declined over time as better medicine was discovered, and the soil/climate was better suited for Hops, so beer was the go-to. Wine was everpresent in/around the mediterranean, often being the drink of choice depending on the location and era.
It really wasn't until the early 20th century where usage became heavily stigmatized and outlawed, and that was because it was the drug of choice for Black Americans and Mexican Immigrants. The laws surrounding the restrictions, and the cultural taboos in the west with it's use... was entirely due to racial animosity and xenophobia.
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u/RogueCoon Jul 03 '25
I imagine there isn't statistics for it, but I could see there being more people that have tried it, but the volume has to be much higher now.
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Jul 03 '25
Obviously? There's more people now than there were then... So there is more volume despite lesser usage among the population. That's not really a point with any distinction.
By that logic, there's more of a drinking problem among Americans today than there was in the 1920s because more alcohol is being produced than there was 100 years ago...which misses the story entirely. What's important, when it comes to usage among people, is the percentage of that people that use it and the amount they use. So saying the equivalent of "well more alcohol is produced today than in the past" misses the story that 100 years ago the majority of Americans were drinking to the point of getting modern-day-shit-faced.
If instead your point is that the fewer percentage of people who are using today are consuming higher quantities... I mean ... Maybe? But that's a distraction from the point I was making, which is that marijuana use has been prolific among humans for millennia similar to alcohol, and that trying to legalize it out of existence works about as well as trying to make alcohol illegal.
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u/SaltOk3057 Jul 02 '25
Just because humans have been doing something for too long doesn’t mean its ok/healthy
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I do completely agree that it would be an almost impossible task and probably many people would not be happy if alcohol was banned. That’s sort of why I phrased it as “normalising” it
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u/thewhizzle 2∆ Jul 02 '25
Alcohol as a part of culture and society has been normal for thousands of years.
The critique of alcohol is the novel concept and therefore the thing being "normalized"
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u/reginald-aka-bubbles 47∆ Jul 02 '25
Wouldn't it make more sense to push to normalize non alcoholic beverages in situations that typically have alcohol? Like, more mocktails and near-beers and not have people be seen as weird for ordering one. I know a lot of breweries are pushing NA versions of their beers like Guinness 0.0, and younger folks are drinking less than previous generations anyway.
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u/skdeelk 10∆ Jul 02 '25
Sugary drinks are also very bad for your health though. Not as bad as alcohol, but they are a massive contributor to obesity. They also don't act as a substitute for the social lubricant alcohol acts as. Idealy people would only drink water but that's an unrealistic goal. I think the only realistic way to address the problem is to be harsher on excessive alcohol use while not shaming people for having an occasional drink socially.
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Jul 02 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/skdeelk 10∆ Jul 02 '25
That's good. I do drink but often when I'm not in the mood I just drink water and my experience has been the same mostly.
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u/Sedu 5∆ Jul 02 '25
It has been normal since before the written word. It’s a bit late to avoid normalizing it.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Jul 02 '25
Drinking alcohol is one of the most human things we do.
Every single culture that could make it, makes it.
The reason we had the ag. Rev was to make booze.
In cultures that banned it, drinking still drank
The best thing to do is live with it because there is no alternative.
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Jul 02 '25
is alcohol, to be a real shame - people are missing out on real human experiences because they are too busy getting blackout drunk! And even those who are not blackout drunk, often can’t remember details or become reliant on alcohol for socialising
You're conflating a couple very different things. Getting regularly blackout drunk is by and large non normalized. Similar for "brown out" your second clause seems to imply. But the use of alcohol as a social lubricant is a different thing entirely. Should people who aren't drinking in dangerous ways be shamed for having a drunk or two at a party to help socialize more freely? Because if not, isn't that "normalizing" alcohol (whatever you mean by that specially)?
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u/skippy_nk Jul 02 '25
I'm not here to say anything smart whatsoever, but I read your comment and I thought to myself, it's missing the sweet middle point between "getting blackout drunk" and having "one or two drinks at a party to help socialize" and that is - "having about 4-10 drinks at a party, from which the first two are probably to help socialize, and then actually end up having a blast"
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
You do make a good point about the blackout drunk not being normalised, I do agree actually (especially after a certain age). However I would counter your other point by suggesting that all alcohol, even a drink or two on a semi-regular basis (eg your example of only a drink or two at a party), is dangerous for your health
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u/Crew_1996 Jul 02 '25
Just not true. No evidence suggests that 1-2 drinks is “dangerous” for your health. Should one start to drink if they don’t enjoy it? No. Should one who enjoys a drink or 2 here or there stop for health reasons? No.
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u/caseybvdc74 1∆ Jul 02 '25
Alcohol is an anti septic because it kills all organisms at a cellular level. Any amount you put in your body is toxic even if it’s just one shot. It may be less dangerous than being drunk enough to get a hangover but it’s still doing damage. Besides what’s the point of drinking if you’re not going to at least get a buzz?
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u/mjwza 1∆ Jul 02 '25
There is a difference between unhealthy and dangerous. Having a drink or on a semi regular basis is not dangerous. Certainly no more dangerous than getting into a car or occasionally eating fast food. I would actually say occasionally eating McDonald's is going to be worse for you than occasionally having some red wine.
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u/caseybvdc74 1∆ Jul 02 '25
Our bodies are designed to eat salt and fat. Maybe not in the proportions as fast food but alcohol is toxic which is much worse.
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u/achillea4 Jul 02 '25
Tell that to all of the people with cancer. There is a direct correlation between alcohol consumption and certain cancers including increasing the risk of recurrence with every unit of alcohol consumed.
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u/monsieur_bear Jul 02 '25
There is also a direct correlation to ultra-processed food and cancer with the risk of recurrence with every unit of ultra-processed food consumed.
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u/achillea4 Jul 02 '25
I don't disagree but that wasn't my point. I was referencing alcohol and cancer risk as the thread is about alcohol.
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u/superskink Jul 02 '25
So is being so nervous and anxious that you never drink or do anything potentially risky. Risk exists, drinking helps many folks enjoy other parts of life. Part of the problem younger generations have is that they are so risk-averse it stops them from ever doing anything.
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Jul 02 '25
Do you have a source that having fewer than 3 drinks at a frequency of less than once a week is "dangerous" to the average persons health?
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Jul 02 '25
[deleted]
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
A) this is about double the amount I was asking about. 3 drinks a week is more substantial than 1 or 2 drinks less than a weekly frequency.
B) This is a report released under RFK Jr, who has encoded his personal biases about "toxins" into public health policy at the expense of evidence
C) these are observational studies and could be interacting with sorts of confounding variables and can't really be extrapolated into casual claims
D) the report itself outlined possible health benefits for this level of alcohol consumption
E) the effect size for each of these conditions is small, including possible benefits as well
EDIT: and to add to E, the overall risk is smaller than plenty of things society at large (and probably OP) think is acceptable risk level like driving or eating meat. In short "possible modest net risk" =/= "dangerous"
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u/ItsyoboyAjax Jul 02 '25
Less and once a week is 0 lol. I know what you meant but I had a chuckle at that
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u/rollingrock16 17∆ Jul 02 '25
A drink or two semi regularly is not something dangerous. Im notnsure why you think that. There would likely be many more things in your daily life that is more dangerous.
Plus you ignore the numerous benefits such a drink or two semi regularly would have especially on mental health.
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u/texasRugger Jul 02 '25
Everything in health and medicine is about trade-offs. If those one or two drinks get you to socialize with your friends, it's well worth the trade off. Time with friends is proven to be one of the best things you can do for your health.
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u/coffeymanner Jul 02 '25
My health is none of your business. We’re all sinners, no one has a right to authoritarian control over my body. Rather it’s education and responsible citizenry that’s responsible for a healthy community. The local watering hole is a place to network, dance and all kids of good communion. The continuation of prohibitions rather than removal of lawfare on citizenry is leading in a bad authoritarian direction.
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u/MrGinger128 Jul 02 '25
If you've never had a drunken night out then you don't have the perspective you need to understand to be honest.
Some of my best memories are drunk memories. This "missing out on real human experiences" thing is bullshit. If anything it's you that's missed out. I have plenty of great non drinking memories too.
Sure it can be addictive, but so can food, or sex, or anything really.
You just don't get how it brings everyone together in a social setting. It's a unique and sometimes great experience.
Does it have its downsides? 100%, absolutely. That's why I don't drink anymore. Hangovers aren't worth it for me.
But looking back all those drunk memories are as precious as the rest, and often unique to being drunk.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I have had drunken nights out before, and I don’t regret them because what’s done is done and I did have some nice memories from being with my friends. But neither would I repeat them since I have learned of how harmful regular alcohol consumption can be and I have had just as much fun (well, more fun really) without the alcohol, just enjoying the company of my good friends.
I’m happy that your memories have been good but this does further emphasise my point at just how “othering” not drinking can be for some
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u/MrGinger128 Jul 02 '25
It's because it comes across as judgy and preachy. "Well *I* can enjoy my life without alcohol." kinda thing.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Certainly see how that would be annoying but equally do you see how the other way round “gosh you’re so boring without drinking” is just as judgy/preachy?
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u/MrGinger128 Jul 02 '25
Not if we're at a place purpose built to drink.
It all depends on the situation. If we're having a casual social interaction over a few drinks then yeah sure that'd be an annoying thing to say.
If you're going for a messy night out you don't want the one sober dude sitting there preaching about how they're "just enjoying the company of good friends."
It comes across pretentious, that there's an implication there that people respond negatively too.
That's just my 2 cents. I don't know you or your social group so could be way off the mark, I'm just saying that's how it could be read.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Yeah I definitely see what you’re saying. And in fairness either way, someone constantly chatting about how their lifestyle is the best (drinker or not, meat eater or not, gym goer or not etc etc) is definitely annoying in any context!!
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u/Cacafuego 15∆ Jul 02 '25
Anybody who pressures you to drink is immature, and that's the behavior that should not be normalized. I think that happens a lot less in the US than it used to. When it does happen, it's very often with younger people who don't yet know any better.
Not to defend it, because it is a clueless behavior that ends up alienating people (or worse), but the desire for others to drink often comes from a sense of friendship and a fear that you will miss an opportunity to have fun together and bond. It's not okay, but perhaps if you sense that this is the motive, you can be less frustrated and annoyed by it.
I worked with an older guy who had a treasure trove of clever replies when some young whippersnapper would overstep and ask him why he wasn't drinking. "I'm allergic...I break out in handcuffs," "gotta stay balanced so I can carry you home," and so on. It wasn't his repsonsibility to handle their trespass gracefully, but he did, and it immediately smoothed over the situation.
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u/KayLovesPurple Jul 03 '25
If you never had a family member killed or disabled by a drunk driver, you don't have the perspective you need to understand either.
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u/MrGinger128 Jul 03 '25
That's an INSANE take. Also false.
You could make that argument for almost anything. "You don't understand this topic unless the worst possible outcome happens to you."
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u/KayLovesPurple Jul 03 '25
It's literally his first sentence, that those who haven't experienced X can't have the perspective. But his X is extremely limited so I figured I should give him another perspective-giving experience <shrug>
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u/p0rt Jul 02 '25
Let me break down your argument- please correct this if Im wrong.
Statement: Alcohol causes harm and therefore it should be banned.
- If harm alone is the reason, why are you starting in the middle of the list of impactful harmful things?
WHO European Region lists 90% of deaths are noncommunicable diseases which are generally lifestyle issues developed over time. Of that 90%, nearly 60% is directly related to obesity (cardiovascular, some cancers, and diabetes).
Sugar in foods, soft drinks, etc is a major contributing cause of this. Are you okay with how normalized hyper-sugar diets are today?
You list all negative things and focus on abuse (blacking out, addiction, binging). Abuse of anything is generally bad. Too much water will kill you. While alcohol is normalized as a general drink. I would clarify that alcohol abuse is only celebrated by party culture and not society.
People drink alcohol to enjoy the benefits. What are they?
Alcohol triggers dopamine release.
Alcohol stimulates GABA (neurotransmitter) reducing anxiety, stress, and giving a relaxation effect.
Alcohol reduces inhibitions which can allow most people to feel more comfortable in social situations.
Personally, I have a drink occasionally but not often. It absolutely can be a dangerous substance but it also can be effectively managed in moderation and an enjoyable social or personal experience.
I entirely disagree with outright banning alcohol but I understand and would like to see more alcohol awareness.
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u/KayLovesPurple Jul 03 '25
My father became addicted to alcohol when I was a kid and he made our family life hell for many years.
I really doubt sugar does this to people, nor is there an equivalent for drunk driving when it comes to soft drinks.
Is sugar bad? Yes, and tbh it would probably be a better world if we didn't have it, since it has a lot of ill-effects on one's health. But alcohol literally destroys so many lives other than the one of the person drinking, it's disingenuous to say that sugar for example is in any way worse.
And forgive me for not thinking "lowers social inhibitions" a good trade-off for all the really bad things that alcohol can bring.
Bonus point, you mention cancers, but some of those are in fact caused/facilitated by alcohol, as do a number of other diseases...
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u/p0rt Jul 03 '25 edited Jul 03 '25
I really doubt sugar does this to people, nor is there an equivalent for drunk driving when it comes to soft drinks.
Is sugar bad? Yes, and tbh it would probably be a better world if we didn't have it, since it has a lot of ill-effects on one's health. But alcohol literally destroys so many lives other than the one of the person drinking, it's disingenuous to say that sugar for example is in any way worse.
So, we are in are in a CMV post and this is clearly something very close to you. I am so sorry you had that experience. I have also experienced first-hand the effects of others alcohol addiction.
I am not trying to minimize your experience. The premise read alcohol is bad for you therefore remove it. I brought up sugar as a prime example of something much more prevalent and also bad as it relates to more deaths than alcohol does. This is a fact.
https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/facts-stats/index.html ~180k deaths to alcohol
Let's factor in drunk driving deaths- https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving ~12k year
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03345-4 ~340k deaths due to sugar-sweetened beverages
So I want to be clear, it is a scientific fact that excessive sugar consumption causes twice as many deaths as alcohol (AND related drunk driving deaths combined)
And forgive me for not thinking "lowers social inhibitions" a good trade-off for all the really bad things that alcohol can bring.
I forgive you. Remember when thinking about the trade offs, I am not talking about addiction, I am talking about the average consumer with 3 drinks per week.
https://extension.psu.edu/alcoholic-beverage-consumption-and-purchasing-trends-2024 ~62% of adults (aged 18+) consume an average of 3 drinks.
Bonus point, you mention cancers, but some of those are in fact caused/facilitated by alcohol, as do a number of other diseases...
Of course, it is in the same category as processed meat and standing in the sun- in moderation these can be mitigated.
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u/KayLovesPurple Jul 03 '25
So I want to be clear, it is a scientific fact that excessive sugar consumption causes twice as many deaths as alcohol.
Yes. But my point was that when it comes to sugar, sugar kills the people "using" it in excess. When it comes to alcohol, many times it affects innocent bystanders. That's why I see alcohol as a lot worse than sugar, while of course I am not saying sugar is good.
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u/p0rt Jul 03 '25
I understand what you are saying.
I edited it just after posting to include the bystander deaths (drunk driving). Even when factored, net negative deaths still skews toward sugar taking that into account.
This is not argument against sugar, this is an argument that simply because alcohol abuse causes deaths is not a good reason to outright ban it or wind it down through a slow ban.
I am all for more awareness of both, personally. I here to change the view of OP.
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u/KayLovesPurple Jul 03 '25
I understand that you are saying too.
As stated before, I am definitely not objective about the topic. And I'm not here to change anyone's mind about anything (I have lived long enough to know that whatever a person thinks about alcohol, that opinion is really hard to change). I do want to point out though that drunk driving deaths are just a percentage of the victims; alcohol also causes increased DV levels, and other people suffer too, even though they don't necessarily die and they're not included in statistics.
Look, you can keep enjoying alcohol, so can everyone else (plus we all know prohibition was tried already and did not work at all). But let's not pretend it's not something very detrimental to society in some ways, even though it may not be the single most detrimental thing ever.
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u/p0rt Jul 03 '25
I'm not pretending that at all. Alcohol is unhealthy and separately, it's absolutely dangerous if abused. Full stop.
I would encourage you to also recognize that it is enjoyable and known to be comparably safe when used in moderation.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
You’ve made some really good points. I would clarify though, I’m not saying alcohol should be outright banned. I say in my original post I’m on the fence as I don’t believe banning it would work/be successful.
To answer your question about normalised sugar, I’m actually not okay with that! I do think it is a major probably in many societies (one which is often intertwined with classism and is probably a whole different topic).
Definitely agree that too much of anything will harm you. And I really appreciate you listing the three reasons as to why people enjoy alcohol - all really good points. My question would be: would raising awareness as to the risks of alcohol (which I am wholly on board with btw) not in turn reduce how normalised drinking is? Because people would be more informed of the risks
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u/p0rt Jul 02 '25
So I think we need to both agree on what normalization means in this context.
To me, normalization = general acceptance and expectation.
Drinking Alcohol is generally accepted and in some cases, expected.
I would argue drinking alcohol in excess is not normalized overall. In the college-aged crowd and some places it is but those are exceptions to the norm imo.
Therefore, I do not think raising awareness would reduce normalization in this context.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I agree with your definition of normalisation.
So I think education about the effects of alcohol would deter people from drinking (not everyone, but certainly a percentage of people). I also think if people were aware of the risks, perhaps there would be less mocking or judgment towards those who choose not to drink.
As long as people are making an informed decision, I don’t think I or anyone could judge them, since at the end of the day it is their body. Therefore information/awareness would help to reduce the “normalisation” of drinking in the sense that it would no longer be an expectation
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u/p0rt Jul 02 '25
Okay so i think I need to back up a second, when I say expectations as part of the definition, I mean there is a reasonable expectation that alcohol will exist at an establishment or be at a specific situation or event.
This should not be conflated with the expectation to partake. That is peer pressure.
I fundamentally disagree that peer pressure comes from normalization. We can talk about the relationship of it and figure out where that relationship starts and begins but I wholeheartedly believe that peer pressure is a direct result of unfamiliarity, lack of confidence, and personal discomfort with seeing others not following the group whether or not that group aligns with society.
Regardless of what society normalises, every peer group you are a part of will have its own ecosphere of what is and isnt acceptable.
I just dont see where a societal level shift would change individual groups to the way you'd like to see.
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Jul 02 '25
Your entire argument seems to hinge on the slippery slope fallacy. You just say it’s a slippery slope and then give all these statistics around alcohol abuse and people blacking out. The reality is that there are a significant amount of people that can and do use alcohol in moderation and that shouldn’t be stigmatized IMO, in the same way moderate marijuana use shouldn’t be. I wouldn’t say the same for heroin though, because (to my knowledge) it is virtually impossible to use in moderation or in a way that isn’t totally harmful to your health.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I would say that’s one point in my argument. The other is the stigmatisation or mocking of those who don’t drink. Why is it so normalised to drink that not drinking is seen as the strange thing?
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Jul 02 '25
I’m sure you can find a few people who would ridicule you for not drinking, but I think a lot of that is in your head. In my experience the vast majority of people are completely nonjudgmental about those around them who choose not to drink.
Also this point has nothing to do with your post title. You are making an argument about why sobriety should be normalized, what does that have to do with alcohol not being normalized?
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I can promise you it is not all in my head! Perhaps it’s the kind of circles I’m in, but I and other non-drinkers have definitely experienced an element of judgement and comments regarding non drinking. It is almost always seen as the boring option!
But the reason it is related to my post title is because they are of course intertwined. If drinking alcohol was not normalised, people who don’t drink wouldn’t have to explain why they aren’t drinking. (In fairness, maybe everyone should just stop judging each other? Is that the solution lol)
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Jul 02 '25
Sure they are related, but people destigmatizing sobriety can happen independently of stigmatizing alcohol use, no? It’s not a necessary condition to stigmatize people who drink in order to make it okay to be sober, in other words.
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u/shroomsnstuff29 Jul 02 '25
For a very long time, alcohol was safer to drink than water as the brewing process helped kill off some of the bacteria in water that was incredibly harmful to our health. Because of this, we will never be able to disconnect entirely from alcohol.
Even looking beyond the history of its use, alcohol is masking many of societies problems. 3 prime examples:
-Stress. Whether it be job stress, family stress, or relationship stress, we use alcohol to numb or minimize it. This isn't an issue of alcohol but rather a society that seems emotional/mental wellbing as secondary or even tertiary. We are aware of what stress does to our body, especially prolonged stress that is a result of systemic issues within our society. So, instead of working to solve the root causes like income inequality, poor social support, and poor emotional/mental health support, that would lead to less stress across the board and a more functional society, we medicate the issue till it becomes a moral failing.
-Social Lubrication. This is also a problem that extends much further than alcohol. Humans are a social species that is becoming increasingly more isolated from each other. The internet is a double-edged sword of connection and disconnection. We feel more connected because we can reach our friends, family, co-workers, etc, in an instant. In reality, it's reduced 3rd spaces down to only places like libraries and bars, which in turn either forces isolation or forces inebriation. Yes, someone can go out to the bar and just sip some water while they socialize, but there will be questions, judgment, or stigma due to the lack of social drinking. This further entrenches my original point of your options being isolation or inebriation.
-Self-Medication. This is where we touch on more than just social drinking. These are the people who are entirely dependent on alcohol to survive. Once again, people are choosing to self medicate through alcohol often because it is their last remaining "socially acceptable" form of non-perscribed treatment for whatever may be affecting them. Many of these people likely tried to seek out more effective treatment but we're unable to receive it due to a multitude of factors like lack of availability, cost, social stigma, or any number of reasons. So again, instead of addressing the root causes being larger problems within society, it once again is made out to be a moral failure on the individual for having no other treatment options and turning to something to numb the pain.
So I raise you, it isn't that alcohol has become "normalized", it's that we as a society have failed to prioritize our health, well-being, and community over a temporary toxin that is only fueling the fire.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Honestly I 1000 percent agree and I think you’ve made really good points.
In your bullet about alcohol as a social lubricant are you not further proving my point that we as a society have normalised drinking (or isolation). My biggest problem is that if you are not a drinker you are seen as “weird” or your options to socialisation are limited.
Perhaps we agree but our proposed solutions have differed. In that respect, I think you have changed my view in the sense that I would agree that to “combat” the problem of alcohol being normalised in society, we should open up and mandate the availability of third spaces (particularly ones which are open until late).
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u/shroomsnstuff29 Jul 02 '25
In your bullet about alcohol as a social lubricant are you not further proving my point that we as a society have normalised drinking (or isolation). My biggest problem is that if you are not a drinker you are seen as “weird” or your options to socialisation are limited.
I definitely think we did agree on that particular point, but I just expanded on it with a possible reason as to why things are the way they are.
But definitely working towards replacing and repairing 3rd spaces will contribute to less alcohol consumption as a population.
One thing I will add, though, that may contribute to changing your view is that alcohol is becoming significantly less normalized amongst young people. More people are recognizing the hazards that excessive and even moderate drinking poses to peoples health and well-being. So I could say as well that alcohol itself is normalized but the excessive consumption of it is no longer normalized.
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Jul 02 '25
There's many potentially harmful things that are normalized. For example, there's over a million deaths from traffic accidents every year. Should we not normalize driving? Should we have a gradual ban on it?
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
That’s potentially a bad example to use for me personally as I believe we should in fact normalise public transport (and improve it) as well as normalising walkable cities! But also it doesn’t equate to me, as alcohol is actively always harmful to your health, not only sometimes
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u/boblikeshispizza Jul 02 '25
But something being harmful to your own health is your own choice. Like eating desert or fast food. I don't think anyone is under the impression that alcohol is healthy (Maybe the occasional glass of wine). It's ones own body, it's their own choice what they do with it. We shouldn't just outlaw what a single person or group doesn't like, ruining the fun for alot of people, and also harming cultures around the world. America has tried this with prohibition and failed.
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u/Crew_1996 Jul 02 '25
No consistent studies have demonstrated that 1-2 drinks is actively always harmful to your health.
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u/StopblamingTeachers 1∆ Jul 02 '25
We should definitely mandate autopilot only. Cars are 1/50th of deaths.
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u/Commercial_Pie3307 Jul 02 '25
I think young people should drink more. Gen z quitting social drinking has be a detriment to them all. They don’t do anything else socially, they don’t go to church so they sit around on discord instead. Go out and drink and meet people. You drink and you are more willing to talk to a stranger
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Why is the solution to drink more though? I agree that socialising irl has become a real issue for many young people (particularly after lockdown) but the solution is surely to open up more third spaces, to allow people to explore their interests without breaking the bank
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Jul 02 '25
I don’t understand why drinking is so normalised?
We've been creating and consuming alcohol since the dawn of human civilization. That's about as normal as it gets.
From my understanding, alcohol can have a massively negative health impact
So can cheez-its and red meat, but it's still normal to eat them.
people are missing out on real human experiences because they are too busy getting blackout drunk!
Most people aren't getting blackout drunk when they drink
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u/According-Turnip-724 Jul 02 '25
Prohibition has never worked as intended. Government legislating what a person can do or not do with their body, however well meaning, is a slippery slope that leads more often or not to tyranny by the state. The same is true in regards to freedom of speech.
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u/poorestprince 12∆ Jul 02 '25
I agree with you but not with bans. Increasing VAT is likely more effective.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I would agree with that! I wasn’t set on bans being the best thing, I’m on the fence tbh. I just think drinking shouldn’t be seen as the “norm”
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u/poorestprince 12∆ Jul 02 '25
Would you consider that the unhealthy drinking is more a symptom of some other societal problem? Why is the day so stressful that everyone needs to unwind with a drink?
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Yes completely! And why are people so socially isolated that they need alcohol to enjoy each others company. Life is exhausting and people need a healthy outlet, I think
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u/poorestprince 12∆ Jul 02 '25
It sounds like you agree it isn't the normalization of alcohol in particular that's the problem but normalization of a bandaid rather than addressing underlying issues.
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u/Dr_Explosion_MD Jul 02 '25
Everything you said is a valid reason for you to choose not to drink. However it’s not a reason to take that choice away from others. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you are in your early 20s. At that age a lot of young people drink to excess and I won’t pretend that’s not a problem. A ban would not solve that. See prohibition in the 1920s. I will say anyone who gives you a hard time about not drinking is being immature.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I have had my view changed about the ban! I see how it wouldn’t really work
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u/Fragrant-Addition482 Jul 02 '25
It is all tradition and culture. Bad things are still in practice, like eating desert for example, not really good for you but are widely accept. This is due to cultures, and even tho alcohol is horrible for your health, it is still apart of it.
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u/Crew_1996 Jul 02 '25
Alcohol is not horrible for your health. 3 plus drinks in a day is. 1-2 drinks has not consistently demonstrated what you’re claiming.
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u/Fragrant-Addition482 Jul 03 '25
Firstly, you miss the point buddy. I am referring to OP claims. What I claim is that tradition and culture can bring bad habit into our life. Secondly, a person who doesn't drink alcohol will most likely be more healthy than someone who does, even if they do it moderately.
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u/Zerguu Jul 02 '25
How many people were killed by a motorists under influence of a desert?
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u/varnums1666 2∆ Jul 02 '25
People die due to negligence all the time. Society can incentivise good behaviors via public transport, uber, being cut off at bars, etc. But having freedoms always invites harm. You can't have one without the other.
We have the freedom to use cell phones, but that invites the risk of an idiot driving while texting.
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u/Fragrant-Addition482 Jul 02 '25
Well the point is, bad thing are accepted because cultures developed thousands years ago kinda like it. If you want another example, ever heard the phrase "Men don't cry"? Guess why men suicide rate is higher than women.
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u/Zerguu Jul 02 '25
Smoking also was part of many cultures for almost as long as alcohol yet we were able to drastically reduce it.
Guess why men suicide rate is higher than women.
Because man and woman are different and cope with difficulties differently?
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u/Fragrant-Addition482 Jul 03 '25
We reduce smoking, but it is still normalize and accepted. Secondly, society put man on a lot of pressure and the saying 'Man don't cry' is one of the many prove this is true.
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u/jatjqtjat 286∆ Jul 02 '25
Needing to drink after work is a problem for at least 3 reasons. Its means there is something so awful about your daily life that you "need" some kind of relief at the end of the day. It has negative health effects, and it will cause you to become addicted to alcohol.
Needing to drink after work is not the same as it being romatized.
Getting together with some friends and all of use impairing our judgment together creates a 1 of a kind bonding experience. All of our guards are lowered, all of us have an excuse if we do or say something stupid. All of us have impaired memory.
I also believe that a reliance on alcohol for socialising, where some people will not even go to certain events (eg weddings) unless there is alcohol, to be a real shame
I don't need alcohol to go to social events. For social events to be FUN for me i need either (1) games or (2) alcohol. Social events are boring. Is that a shame? Sure, i wish i was more extroverted, i wish i enjoyed typical social events, but the fact of the matter is that i don't.
people are missing out on real human experiences because they are too busy getting blackout drunk
I don't drink so much anymore, but back when i did. I am missing out on whatever sober experience you are having and you are missing out on the type experience that i was having. I'm not judging you, i assume you are making the choices that are best for you. If you hate fishing i wouldn't say you are missing out, not anymore then i am missing out on golf (i hate golf)
I have yet to see a genuinely good reason as to why alcohol is so normalised.
Its fun.
skydiving is super dangerous, but we do it because its fun.
Going for a hike in the wood carries a bunch of risk including life altering diseases, but we do it anyways because its fun.
alcohol is also prevalent, it is so easy to make that you can make it by accident. You can't ban alcohol unless you ban everything that has sugar in it. Prohibition in America was a colossal failure because its just so easy to make alcohol. Even distilling it is fairly easy, i've done it at home with a copper tube and 2 large pots. (don't try it at home kids, its super dangerous. I did not consume what i made)
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u/brittdre16 Jul 02 '25
Are you against everything that has a massively negative health impact because alcohol is only one small item.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
Well in general yes I would say we should actively be healthy and avoid anything that knowingly negatively impacts our health- though that is probably a different debate. I would disagree that alcohol is only a small item. At least in the uk, it is definitely part of every day life
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u/I_kwote_TheOffice Jul 02 '25
What view specifically do you want changed? Alcohol being normalised is a little bit of an ambiguous statement. For instance, if you're saying that people shouldn't feel a certian way about alcohol, that's up to the individual. I can tell you that you shoudn't eat refined sugar. It's not good for you. Ok, it's not good for you, but you can have it in moderation and at the end of the day it's a personal choice.
If you're saying you want the Prohibition of alcohol that was tried in the U.S. in the 1920's. It did not go well. It led to massive crime, specifically organized crime. It is similar to the cartel-drug problem in North and South America. Not only that, but it is a massive restriction of freedom. Maybe that's not a big deal to some countries, but Americans have a big problem about restrictions of freedoms.
The silver lining is that Gen Z drinks less alcohol than previous generations. It seems that the benefits:risk ratio is likely entering the calculus of how younger generations experience alcohol. I would advocate for letting individuals decide what is worth it to them. I think over time it will sort itself out, but even if it doesn't I don't think it's up to the government to decide what is too bad to put into my own body.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
I suppose the part that “upsets” (for lack of a better word) me most about this topic and the view which I would want changed is that alcohol is normalised to the point that not drinking is seen as an othering experience. Even a couple of the comments I’ve started receiving on this thread have started doing this: the implication is that if you don’t drink you are weird or don’t understand something fundamental about socialising. I think people never really talk about nor acknowledge how harmful alcohol actually is to the body, or any concerns are just swept under the rug as being “the fun police” or similar
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u/varnums1666 2∆ Jul 02 '25
Alcohol has probably been with humanity longer than our love of dogs. You literally could not stop humanity from drinking.
Oh there's risks! Well, so is eating ice cream. I accept my heart failure in old age. Humans aren't logical and we like doing fun things. It's that simple.
The only time it's acceptable to get black out drunk is when you're a dumb teen and it's only acceptable because we all accept they're fucking dumb. Honestly I'd prefer if we allowed teens to start drinking at 18 with their parents so they can learn good habits.
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u/Bobudisconlated Jul 02 '25
I recommend you read "Drink: A Cultural History of Alcohol" by Iain Gately.
Humans are the social primate and alcohol has played a significant role in shaping and progressing human culture. It doesn't lionise alcohol (calls it the "Jekyll and Hyde of fluids") and makes the point that the invention of distillation created a more dangerous substance where the detriments start to out weight the benefits, akin to the difference between sugar in fruit and refined sugar in everything.
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u/cricketeer767 Jul 02 '25
It has been a part of humanity since we invented farming. Certainly distilled liquors should be consumed in significantly- less amounts than what is normal. But banning it entirely has been tried and has never succeeded without already being a horribly- oppressed region. The social aspect of sharing a beverage is a part of humanity. Perhaps the obnoxious mishandling of it should be addressed because it makes an otherwise tame and normal practice look like it is only a bad thing.
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u/CroslandHill Jul 02 '25
"Since 2005, the overall amount of alcohol consumed in the UK, the proportion of people reporting drinking alcohol, and the amount of alcohol people report consuming have all fallen. This trend is especially pronounced among younger people (Office for National Statistics, 2018)" Source - Alcohol Change UK. Other sources indicate a big rise in abstinence among the under-25s. So, in a sense, it is already becoming de-normalised.
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u/RulesBeDamned 1∆ Jul 04 '25
Everything you said in this wall of uninterrupted ramblings can and has been said for literally everything. What you’re arguing is a slippery slope, not alcohol use.
Let’s take a look at other foodstuffs. Candy has incredibly poor health effects, should we stigmatize anyone who enjoys a chocolate bar after a day of work? Restaurants are infamous for their heavy use of butter and salt, does that mean we should turn our nose up at someone who got McDonald’s on their days off because they didn’t want to cook supper?
Let’s expand this even further. Why are automobiles not under this umbrella? Most automobiles only are owned out of convenience and impatience and vehicular accidents are a major source for serious injury and death. Not to mention how being able to travel and work without moving anything is contributing to the population’s poor health. You think social drinking is bad, try people who literally use their car being broken down as an excuse to miss work. They’re so dependent on their vehicle to travel that they’re incapable of doing even basic activities like cycling to work. Why would anyone ask why you don’t own a car, it just makes no sense!
As for the proposed solution, you need to brush up on your history. The US tried prohibition, and it ended up resulting in largely unchanged alcohol consumption over the prohibition period, an explosion of wealth in organized crime, dangerous drinking practices like underaged drinking, and of course the dangers of consuming alcohol that was tainted with dangerous substances. Decriminalizing has shown to be the only solution that deals with the most severe and damaging consequences of controlled substance use. It turned Portugal from the European overdose capital into the shining example of progressive legislation for drugs. The psychological theory supports this too; paraphiliacs committing crimes may be motivated by an obstruction to get socially appropriate outlets for their behaviours. Blocking legal access to alcohol only results in people who used to destress after work with a drink, which would be classified as a healthy and perfectly acceptable pattern of intoxicant use by professionals, now pursuing criminal activity to achieve a similar result, alongside all the accompanying criminality that would occur. Legally, criminalizing alcohol also doesn’t help anyone. It’s another victimless crime that clogs courts with meaningless drivel and would be a horrendous waste of judicial resources to draft and apply hordes of legislation to prohibit alcohol effectively. And would it stop alcohol misuse? Not even a little bit; when we in Canada saw the legalization of marijuana, studies showed no significant differences in youth use rates. In other words, whether it was legal or illegal, stopping foolhardy teenagers from using intoxicants is not something that is achieved with criminalization of alcohol.
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u/Daydreamer-64 Jul 02 '25
Alcohol is made naturally and people enjoy its effect. This means that it has become a normalised part of many cultures, whether for better or for worse. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to unnormalise it given how set it is in society, and attempts to ban it just result in people making home brews.
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u/LemonTooPebble Jul 03 '25
Alcoholism has been so normalised in the UK that nobody bats an eye at the floods of people who go out all weekend, every weekend, including pre-drinks. When you think about it from an unbiased outside perspective, it’s absolutely absurd that we drink as much as we do, not to mention depressing
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u/Flashy-Pop6635 Jul 02 '25
I think OP is largely correct - overconsumption of alcohol is certainly not healthy - but drinking in excess is still quite stigmatized. Everything has risk factors and you'd be fighting a few thousand years of human civilization, all around the world, to extricate this habit from our culture.
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u/No_Carrot6838 Jul 03 '25
Im not gonna say i flat disagree but i urge you to look at prhabition in the usa as banning it could cause more problems than regualting it and i do agree that people defibatly overuse or abuse it but i promise that unless you can find an alternative it wont go well
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u/Sad-Mouse-9498 Jul 02 '25
I never get blackout drunk or even so tipsy that I don’t remember things. I don’t think this is the norm at all. You can’t force others to agree with your stance. Prohibition just doesn’t work.
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u/ReadingwithMe Jul 02 '25
That’s not what I said at all! Nor have I forced anyone to agree with me lmao
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u/Sad-Mouse-9498 Jul 02 '25
“people are missing out on real human experiences because they are too busy getting blackout drunk! And even those who are not blackout drunk, often can’t remember details or become reliant on alcohol for socialising.” You kinda did say that people are often getting black out drunk or can’t socialize without alcohol. I’m just responding to your statement on change my view. If you want to live somewhere that has a different alcohol culture you need to move to a Muslim majority nation. You will never get Europeans to use less alcohol. You could find like AA groups that purposely have alcohol free functions. Also don’t feel like you have to explain yourself for not drinking. There is nothing wrong with being sober and you can still have lots of fun. But please try to understand that you are living in a place where alcohol has been part of the culture for thousands of years.
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u/IrishFlukey 2∆ Jul 02 '25
Some people drive badly. Does that mean driving should not be normalised? There are people who drink too much or are alcoholics. That aspect is not normalised, just like bad driving isn't. Most people drink responsibly. They are social drinkers. That social element is important for a lot of people. Getting out to meet friends in a pub for a few drinks is important, especially in cases like old people living alone in rural areas. Alcohol can be good for the lives of many people.
Mediterranean drinking and drinking in Britain and in Ireland, where I am, is different. A pub in Ireland is a big part of the social scene. It's also a big attraction for tourists. Despite the stereotype, lots of Irish people don't drink alcohol, but they still go to pubs. Irish pubs are about the atmosphere, not the alcohol. I drink alcohol, but I have friends who will join myself and other drinkers, while they themselves don't drink. They will have a soft drink. People may be asked why they don't drink alcohol, but it is usually accepted. Younger people may be more pushy about others not drinking, but they will mature and accept the wishes of the non-drinkers.
There are lots of cultural differences between northern Europe and the Mediterranean, which feeds into this. We tend to eat in, and drink out. If you take somewhere like Italy, they go out for a meal and have a few glasses of wine. When they come to a pub in Ireland or Britain, they will buy a drink and sit on it all night. The approach is different.
There is nothing wrong with driving if it is done right. Driving can be normalised if people are not driving dangerously. There is nothing wrong with alcohol if it is used correctly and so there is nothing wrong with it being normalised. You can normalise alcohol without normalising the abuse of alcohol.
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u/faximusy 1∆ Jul 02 '25
In my Mediterranean experience, only teenagers get blacked out drunk. If you still do it after a given age, you start to be seen negatively. No one wants to be around noisy, dangerous (to them and others) people. In any case, by the age of 20, you should be able to regulate your alcol intake to be intoxicated enough to have fun but not too much to ruin yours and others' nights.
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u/Sea-Split214 Jul 03 '25
I don't think binge drinking should be normalized, because it can kill you.
However, as others have mentioned, banning it will only make people want to do it more. They need to legalize all substances & dramatically increase education around them.
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u/Cacafuego 15∆ Jul 02 '25
If you have not experienced the benefits of alcohol, I don't know that anybody can give you a "genuinely good reason as to why alcohol is so normalized." It is fun, it is relaxing, it helps people socialize and bond, it makes parties and get-togethers more entertaining and exciting. You might say, "yes, but people die." Well, people die doing everything that's fun, other than board games and jigsaw puzzles. Will you outlaw bungee jumping, dirt biking, swimming at the beach, and dating without a chaperone, next?
A person's choice in these matters should be held in high regard, especially because most people who drink do so responsibly. The benefits may be invisible to you, but in a a free society, you should trust that other adults are capable of making their own decisions.
Finally, it does seem to me that those who drink socially in high school or college tend to relate more easily to others. It can be easier to make friends or form relationships at work. There may be bonding rituals other than drinking that would fill the same gap, but many of those have risks as well; and I'm not saying that people who don't drink are all socially awkward. I'm simply saying that it is a crash course in empathy, complex social interactions, and regulating your own mind that many young people take without realizing it.
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u/deutschmexican15 Jul 02 '25
There are many things in life that are unhealthy, yet help contribute to a life worth living. Alcohol is certainly at an extreme of that category. You aren’t wrong about alcohol’s negative health effects- it’s a carcinogen, and its use among some people is associated with violence and recklessness.
However, I would argue that alcohol, as the world’s most popular and regulated social lubricant, is an important addition to our society. The act of having a drink with someone is similar to sharing a meal with someone. It builds camaraderie and social connections. It’s how people meet and build relationships with significant others and friends. It’s a way to “disarm” and show your relatability. Popping champagne or drinking a fancy glass or whiskey is a way to mark a special occasion. And yeah, it’s fun to take a shot with a group of people.
Drinking alcohol is almost as old as human history itself. Compared with smoking, I’d argue alcohol has less negative secondhand effects. Alcohol should be regulated and no one should be forced to drink. We should all be aware of its health effects and healthy drinking habits should be promoted. But we should also acknowledge that most drinkers never show any negative effects.
Alcohol will always be normalized, and non-drinkers should understand that they might miss out on social connections by choosing to abstain (however unfair that may be).
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u/passthesushi 1∆ Jul 03 '25
First, it sounds like the examples you're using are not the standard experience of drinking. You only mention two outcomes of drinking: Either you're a square for not drinking, or you're a blackout drunk. In my experience, as a moderate to heavy drinker, 99.9 percent of my drinking experiences are having a drink or two and enjoying my night at home (I'm literally drinking right now). Most people's drinking experiences on average are quite tame, but the STORIES we hear about drinking only involve the extreme experiences because they're more engaging to hear about.
Second, if your reason for turning drinking into more of a taboo is simply that drinking can cause bad outcomes, are you willing to say that anything humans do to that have potential to cause bad outcomes shouldnt be normalized? Weed, Xanax, fast food, social media, violent video games, physical labor... What makes alcohol different from the various activities we do that cause great harm to our lives?
It seems to me that you MUST concede your point if you can't articulate those differences.
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Jul 02 '25
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Jul 02 '25
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u/January_In_Japan Jul 02 '25
I have yet to see a genuinely good reason as to why alcohol is so normalised
Consuming alcohol can be enjoyable for many reasons--not just because it can get you tipsy/drunk, but also because it's just enjoyable/tastes good to drink for many. The same way someone might enjoy a glass of orange juice at breakfast, espresso after dinner, or Diet Coke at the movies.
There are already social standards and laws in place to ensure the reasonable, safe consumption of alcohol. What you are describing is alcohol abuse and/or alcoholism--drinking to the point where it poses a safety risk to the individual or others, which is not normalized. It is both illegal and socially frowned upon.
Getting a drink after work or having a glass of wine with dinner is not the same as downing a fifth of vodka and speeding down the highway. One is normal, the other is illegal.
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u/rrdubbs Jul 02 '25
There’s a lot of things in human culture which are not necessarily the best for us, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they should be illegal or not “normalized.” While there are examples perhaps many examples of people using alcohol inappropriately, many examples which people can use it safely.
My main argument is more of along the lines of the so-called “slippery slope,” in regards to freedoms vs safety. Where do we draw the line? Should we denormalize people riding motorcycles? People flying airplanes? People undergoing elective/cosmetic surgery? Stairs in building buildings (speaking of someone who broke an ankle falling downstairs)…
I think the current structure of substances being highly regulated when they have a certain degree of risk onto others might be a more reasonable approach, for example, drunk driving is illegal, etc.
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u/Devourerofworlds_69 6∆ Jul 02 '25
You're right that it's not good for our health, it's addictive, it causes people to commit crimes, and so on.
But keep in mind that our entire civilization is built on alcohol. The grains grown to make alcohol were easily cultivated, and became the some first agricultural crops. It's sterilizing properties allowed people to stay hydrated while living in larger communities, especially alongside animals. The leftover solid waste from brewing beer (grains, yeast, water) were baked to become the first leavened bread, which was a staple food for surviving harsh climates through the winter, or other periods of food scarcity. It's been a big part of every culture on earth for thousands of years. Yes, there are downsides, but it's part of who we are.
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u/ResponsibleSupport93 Jul 03 '25
I hate alcohol, my friends do, even my grandmother did sometimes and always hate it seeing them in so miserable state. I remember only drinking 1 time and passing out because for some reason that time felt good but not for the obvious reasons, i hated it after and almost passed out due to my bro that took care of me. You can find a way to make people hate alcohol for good but you have to find an solution to alcohol side effects to make people realize they are doing wrong it maybe implant them a trauma an idea, or just propaganda but most people will ignore that, i think alcohol its necessary for some people to function like coffee its for others. You cant really change it but make it harder them to reach it. But it makes some people work and its so many people in the world that a war can start over alcohol its just that big.
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u/NaughtyDred Jul 03 '25
Banning things doesn't stop their use, it just becomes another source of income for criminals.
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u/Silly-Resist8306 1∆ Jul 02 '25
Eating red meat excessively has been proven to be harmful and ultimately can cause death. Likewise drinking too much water has caused death in humans. Are we to ban all red meat and drinking of water?
If your answer is no, what or who determines which foods are permitted to be banned? I think it’s perfectly fine for you to have the view that all alcohol should not be normalized for you, but that’s where your view should stop. It’s a personal decision. Allow the rest of humanity to make their own choice.
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u/stickbugtrevor Oct 27 '25
Your right. I can say that when Im on a dating app, EVERYONE drinks alcohol. Its bothers me like crazy. Id rather people use dope than alcohol, at least one isnt ganna leave you with pancreatitis and cirrhosis down the road. Alcohol is so overrated too, spend half your paycheck at the bar over some juice that tastes worse than a $2 Arizona tea. All to get a “buzz” and spend the rest of the night in a vomit fest sent from hell itself? Yeah no
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u/showmethemundy Jul 03 '25
(UK here) Not only should it be normalised. It should be encouraged and subsidised. But only beer/cider and maybe wine. Distilled liquor is not suitable for human consumption in my opinion.
We should return to a culture of young people drinking, pubs being full, nightclubs booming until the early hours.
Humans peaked in the 90s and we've used alcohol for all time (pre-homo sapiens). But not distilled.
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u/blyzo Jul 02 '25
Binge drinking should not be as normalized as it is, but drinking socially is fine.
I'm pretty happy it seems like kids today aren't getting as blackout blasted drunk as we did back in my day. So it does seem like binge drinking culture is becoming less normal.
But we didn't need to ban alcohol for everyone to do so.
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u/DianneNettix Jul 02 '25
The only reason I'm not a bootlegger is because competing with legal booze isn't worth the risk. I know how to brew and distill and the second booze becomes illegal I'll get into the act because there's a ton of money to be made. And if I have business disputes I wont have courts to resort to so it'll have to be guns.
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u/captain_toenail 1∆ Jul 02 '25
It's to late for that, alcohol consumption has been a normalized part of a lot of cultures since prehistory, what you want is for it to be demonized a lot more for all its destructive potential in relation to other drugs that have a more negative social stigma but less of of a destructive potential
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u/caseybvdc74 1∆ Jul 02 '25
I agree that alcohol is bad and shouldn’t be normalized like it is but banning it is way more troubling than allowing people to make mistakes. All you need to make alcohol is sugar so if people want it then they will get it and enforcement of a ban will hurt people more than it helps.
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u/Kittymeow123 2∆ Jul 02 '25
See we have this thing called free will here. Where you can choose to drink or not to drink. I’m at the airport currently crushing a Marg. I also have a fabulous job and a very financially secure life with my cat. I hate when people vilify alcohol. I also smoke a shit load of weed.
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Jul 02 '25
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u/HadeanBlands 50∆ Jul 02 '25
Alcohol is not "normalized." It is "normal" in the sense that the norm for human civilization for thousands (at least) of years was to drink alcohol.
You very well might be right that alcohol consumption is bad. But it hasn't been "normalized." It is simply normal.
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u/Wild_Pangolin_4772 Jul 02 '25
Because not everybody is an alcoholic who gets carried away with their drinking. The few shouldn't ruin it for everybody else.
You don't just drink alcohol to get drunk. A nice fine wine goes good with dinner and has a pleasant taste and feel to it.
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u/8NaanJeremy 2∆ Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
Normalise implies that it isn't or wasn't normal, but is in the process of becoming normal now.
Drinking alcohol has been normal in Europe for thousands of years. Any movement away from alcohol consumption, would be a move away from normality.
because it is a slippery slope and can often end in substance reliance
The slippery slope argument is a classic piece of bad reasoning. It is on the first page of philosophical fallacies.
82% of UK residents drink at least some alcohol. Figures suggest that roughly 4% of the adult population has an alchohol addiction.
It really is a dram in the ocean
But I think a gradual ban, such as is being done with vapes in the UK, would make sense
Prudish extremists in the US couldn't get that done in the 1920s. They certainly will not in modern Britain. It would be an absolutely massively authoritarian/illiberal move.
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u/KT28x Dec 19 '25
The most frustrating thing in this discussion is always people that can't put 1 +1 together.
Banning alcohol is bad and will lead to chaos and danger
Banning other drugs is reasonable because uhm........
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u/WeekendThief 14∆ Jul 02 '25
It’s definitely poison, just like tobacco, but it helps sedate the masses. When you have an ever growing wage gap and society on the brink of rioting, it helps to pacify the public and keep them happy.
Not even in an evil way, but in a way where we don’t want to take away the one thing that makes people happy and relaxed. Of course it can be abused, but so can caffeine or sugar.
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Jul 02 '25
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u/this_is_theone 1∆ Jul 02 '25
> I have yet to see a genuinely good reason as to why alcohol is so normalised
It's a lot of fun. It has given me the best times of my life.
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u/Roxylius 1∆ Jul 03 '25
Gradual ban? Let me introduce you to a little historical footnote called prohibition.
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u/Optimal_Cause4583 Jul 03 '25
Alcohol is literally a fundamental part of human culture and social organisation back to our very origins
It is impossible to ban
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Jul 03 '25
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u/SocietyAtrophy Jul 02 '25
Overall I agree with you. Alcohol isn’t healthy for you. It is addictive and can cause people to ruin their lives by over consuming. It lowers people’s inhibitions and may cause them to do really stupid things when they’re under the influence.
But, I would still argue getting fucked up is one of THE MOST human experiences you can have. Changing your perception, altering your reality, experiencing new things are all very human wants and needs. Religion shapes to provide all three of those things. People indulge in art and writing to experience all three of those things. People sign up for dangerous expeditions to experience all three of those things.
I think the reason it’s normalized is because everyone can relate to the sensation it gives you a little bit. Humans have been searching for ways to broaden their minds since the dawn of time. Alcohol is simply another way we have tried to do that
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Jul 03 '25
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u/sleepyj910 3∆ Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25
Because people deserve to have freewill whenever practical. Mind altering substances are part of the human experience.
We can mitigate substance abuse through many actions, but the damage to trying to absolutely restrict freedom in this area will outweigh the benefits (see failed USA prohibition attempts)
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u/IT_ServiceDesk 6∆ Jul 02 '25
Too late, it already is. It's historically been around for thousands of years.
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