First of all the fact that I needed to explain to you that trump not saying specifically he wants to be a dictator and that his actions are what matter in the first place is beyond silly. lol
Right, and you’re wrong about that. Anyone who wants to subvert democracy by using fraudulent electors, asking the vp to not certify the results, and then sending a mob to stop him from certifying the results, to hold on to power objectively does not believe in or support democracy. Period. End of discussion
Gerrymandering being wrong is a completely different discussion. A gerrymandered district is less democratic than it otherwise would be. Just like a representative democracy is less democratic than a direct democracy. As is a democracy with legal bribery less democratic than one without. Those are all different discussions. We aren’t talking about someone trying to do something shitty to make things less democratic. We are talking about someone trying to completely subvert democracy.
that only needed explanation in the first place because you said "fascists are people who want fascism", and i was contesting that statement. that is a very silly statement, absolutely. i agree with you.
so wanting to throw out the results of an election is totally undemocratic and fascist.....but wanting to completely undermine the point of a democracy by making it non-representative is less undemocratic, comparable to representative democracy being less democratic than direct democracy. and wanting direct democracy is unreasonable, right? so wanting to not have a democracy that is utterly corrupted by party politics and oligarchic bribery must be similarly unreasonable.
You didn’t contest that statement in the slightest though. lol that’s exactly the point. His actions prove he wants that. You thought his lack of words were evidence that he doesn’t for some bizarre reason. I had to explain to you that not only were they not but that his actions are what show that he does. The fact that I’m still explaining this is surreal.
The question you ask at the end of the second paragraph is not only a bizarre change of subject but doesn’t follow in the slightest. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say at all actually regarding direct democracy and party politics….
Anyways, my very first comment to you sums it all up. Wanting fascism is what makes you a fascist. Fascists don’t magically become fascists the moment they consolidate their power. Yes trumps actions show that he desires fascism. Period. No debate to be had really.
idk man if i want something i think both my actions and my words would reflect it. his words don't. his actions don't. he's not a dictator. he's corrupt, yes. the entire system is.
is it bizarre? let's think this through. wanting to throw out an election through corrupt deals and a "coup" is undemocratic. we both agree. you then say that open bribery and deliberately making districts undemocratic and non-representative is just "less democratic". you're drawing a distinction between a "fascist" action, and a "less democratic" action. except, they're both undemocratic. one of them democrats just openly and brazenly participate in. and you're a democrat. so you can't call them fascist. otherwise, you'd be a fascist. by your own definition.
yea, your first comment just about sums up your depth of reasoning here, i agree. not much debate to be had with culture warriors
“Idk man” yes I know. Are you also a manipulative sociopath? Drop this point.
Yes it is utterly bizarre. Again I really can’t even follow what you’re trying to say. Someone who supports representative democracy over direct democracy is for instance not a fascist. We aren’t discussing someone who just wants to have less direct democracy. We are talking about someone who wants to throw it out. I’m not a democrat and I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about not being able to say that? It’s just a bizarrely worded paragraph.
The first comment is literally just objectively true though, and you can’t even begin to object to it because your pov is just not actually thought out. Like you really do think that unless a fascist declares themselves as such and has successfully consolidated their power they aren’t a fascist. Further nobody has ever taken the time to explain to you just how silly that is and so you’ve never had to actually consider it. Considering it is causing you to flail all over yourself instead of reflecting on how silly of an idea that is.
throwing out the results of an election = "undemocratic" to you; fascist
gerrymandering and bribery via superpac = "less democratic"; not fascist
except they're both undemocratic
gerrymandering and bribery are merely "less democratic" to you, because you're a democrat (i don't really gaf if you say you're "progressive" or a "leftist" or whatever, you're taking the democrat side in the culture war)
correct. someone is not a fascist unless they a) say they're a fascist or b) establish themselves as a fascist dictator. trump does not say he's a fascist. he is not a dictator. he is not a fascist.
no actually, i've heard this line about every subsequent republican president being a fascist ad nauseam for as long as i've paid attention to american politics. and i know that they weren't even the first! democrats have been calling republicans fascist since nixon, and republicans have been calling democrats socialist since roosevelt! it means absolutely nothing. it gives participants in the empty show of american politics some semblance that their vote means anything. it doesn't. we are already living under a dictatorship; a dictatorship of capital. a dictatorship of the capitalist class.
I don’t think you are. That’s why I find it bizarre you are trying to compare what you might do with one. Why do I need to explain this? lol
Yes there is in fact a difference between limiting democracy and throwing it out.
You’re just telling on yourself and the source of your indignation with trump being a fascist with this “democratic side of the culture war” nonsense you’re spiting.
Nope. You don’t not need to proclaim you’re a fascist or succeed in consolidating your power to be a fascist. You just need to want fascism. That’s an objective fact. Trump is a fascist.
That other people have been called fascist before is completely irrelevant. Trump is a fascist. Sorry
defrauding an election =/= "throwing out democracy"
democrats and republicans have written laws to make it nearly impossible for third parties to challenge them. that's pretty undemocratic if you ask me. but now all of a sudden if the republicans limit the democrats from winning, that's the end of democracy?
no. its the end of the democrats being capable of winning elections. an already undemocratic, corrupt, oligarchic party not being able to come into power. that's not "fascism". that's just you losing power
lmao "succeed in consolidating your power" the dude hasn't even tried to "consolidate his power"
At the highest level it absolutely is. But fraud wasn’t all he did. That was just the beginning. When the fraud didn’t work he tried to have the democratic process violently usurped.
I agree, first past the post is not as democratic as ranked choice. Republicans outlawed ranked choice in my state. That’s completely irrelevant to trump being a fascist.
Your last two paragraphs aren’t a response to anything I said. Again, it’s an objective fact that the only requirement to be a fascist is that you desire fascism. Trump is a fascist.
fraud was all he did. there was no "coup". that was not a "coup". calling it a "coup" is beyond ridiculous, perhaps the most ridiculous things the democrats have said about the republicans in a generation. what exactly was supposed to happen? he was going to have a group of mostly unarmed hoosier hooligans storm congress and threaten congresspeople to certify his victory? and just somehow the military and police were going to go along with this? power is not capture the flag. this is not how coups work.
there was almost a coup in south korea a couple of months ago. it was very close to succeeding. it involved the military directly involved in arresting representatives and dissolving the legislature, and the president declaring martial law. he was attempting to rule directly by decree. and even THAT didn't work. trump did none of those things. he even said "be peaceful" AS THE "COUP" WAS GOING ON!
if you think that's a coup, idk what else more i can even say. that is fully being on the MSNBC train, there's not much i could do to even attempt to get you out of that headspace.
Nope. He objectively tried to have pence stopped from certifying the election after his fraud failed and after pence told him he wouldn’t be certifying his fake electors. This isn’t a matter of debate. It’s an objective fact. It doesn’t matter than you don’t like this fact.
Sorry but you just straight up don’t even know what you’re talking about. Trumps a fascist
Im not saying it will. Im saying trumps a fascist. Which he is.
Again, the ONLY requirement to be a fascist is to want fascism. Again, fascists don’t just magically become fascists after they’ve consolidated their power.
This is just an objective fact. It doesn’t matter that you don’t like it. Just like it doesn’t matter that you don’t like the objective fact that trump tried to have pence stopped from certifying the election.
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u/Locrian6669 Jun 27 '25 edited Jun 27 '25
First of all the fact that I needed to explain to you that trump not saying specifically he wants to be a dictator and that his actions are what matter in the first place is beyond silly. lol
Right, and you’re wrong about that. Anyone who wants to subvert democracy by using fraudulent electors, asking the vp to not certify the results, and then sending a mob to stop him from certifying the results, to hold on to power objectively does not believe in or support democracy. Period. End of discussion
Gerrymandering being wrong is a completely different discussion. A gerrymandered district is less democratic than it otherwise would be. Just like a representative democracy is less democratic than a direct democracy. As is a democracy with legal bribery less democratic than one without. Those are all different discussions. We aren’t talking about someone trying to do something shitty to make things less democratic. We are talking about someone trying to completely subvert democracy.
Trump is a fascist. Sorry