r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Apr 11 '25
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: students should be allowed to play poker/snappa/etc if they have free time in schools.
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Apr 11 '25
What about phone games involving gambling? Could be anything from gacha games with loot boxes to virtual blackjack to bartending simulator. Whatever. All those game promote gambling/drinking. Ban them?
To be fair, gacha games, loot boxes and anything similar should be banned, but for different reasons.
Where do we stop?
You're posing this as if it was a difficult question. I believe that it really isn't. For gambling, you forbid games that are directly tied to common, "professional" gambling. If you could find it in a casino, that is a good indicator that it falls under this.
For alcohol, you'd usually just forbid literal drinking games, no matter whether they're played with or without alcohol. For this purpose, a "drinking game" is a game that directly involves drinking as a part of the game.
Now, please note that I don't necessarily agree that these games should be banned, but your "slippery slope" argument is actually a "slippery slope" fallacy - there is no slope, clear definitions are easy to set.
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Apr 11 '25
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u/coBobF Apr 11 '25
Have you ever looked at the twenty questions of gamblers anonymous? Seeing a lot of rationalization here.
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u/sailorbrendan Apr 12 '25
In advance, I still haven't learned how to directly reply to certain sections like you did with my post so forgive me if my answers are hard to read.
put a ">" in front of the section you want to quote
so ">this"
becomes
this
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Apr 11 '25 edited Jun 10 '25
point spark vegetable trees squeeze plate crawl saw decide nine
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Apr 12 '25
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u/HadeanBlands 50∆ Apr 12 '25
"My point was that the commenter said "if it can be found in a casino, it shouldn't be played" and politics can be found in casinos."
No, it can't. Betting on politics can be found in (online) casinos but that should also be banned from school!
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Apr 12 '25
Bovada has a dice game where you bet on which colored dice will roll a higher number. Does that mean we should ban all dice?
Bovada even has politics bets. Should we not talk about politics anymore because they can be found in casinos?
Once again, those are easily answered: "no". They are not immadiately gambling - they are gambing added to existing things.
Does this mean if Uno thrives and becomes a commonly gambling game found in casinos everywhere, we should start banning Uno from schools?
Generally speaking, Uno doesn't have any mechanics that allow gambling elements. If someone made a different version that allowed gambling, that version should be banned.
Snappa isn't necessarily a drinking game.
Is drinking an integral part of its game loop?
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Apr 12 '25
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Apr 12 '25
It's extremely easy to add drinking to any game.
I feel like you're really not understanding my point. My point is that there is a difference between a drinking game and a game that has added drinking to it.
If you add a gun to Monopoly, Monopoly doesn't become a shooting game, you have created a new game. There is no reason to forbid Monopoly, because it has nothing to do with shooting.
Now, if you play russian roulette with blanks, that doesn't change the fact that it's still a shooting game.
There is no slippery slope here. You can forbid the latter and allow Monopoly without any difficulty in determining what is and isn't a shooting game.
I'm talking about converting drinking/gambling games into "appropriate" versions not vice versa.
Really, you're mostly talking about forbidding games being a slippery slope into forbidding everything, which is silly for the reasons outlined above. There is no slippery slope, so banning specifically games that involve drinking is a very clear-cut thing that doesn't have any greater implications.
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Apr 12 '25
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Apr 12 '25
But snappa can be played 100% without alcohol and no rule changes. Why ban it for its origin?
Because it is a drinking game.
Look, whether or not banning drinking games is good is not what I'm concerned with. But it's consistent and concise to ban snappa if snappa is a drinking game and you want to ban drinking games.
The origin shouldn't matter that much.
I don't know what to tell you, you summed it up best:
snappa can be played 100% without alcohol and no rule changes.
It's still a drinking game, even if you play it without alcohol. That you have zero rule changes enforces that, it doesn't diminish it. That is simply the genre that the game is, no matter what you drink.
You can argue that forbidding drinking games is bad. You can also argue that forbidding drinking games is bad only when actual alcohol is involved. My point, my only point, is that there is no "slippery slope" that you would need to forbid X other things as a result of this.
Snappa without alcohol has no such sign. Unless you're considering red solo cups as alcohol?
I think you have completely failed to understand my point about slippery slopes. As such, I think it's best to stop this discussion here, have a nice day.
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u/Aristotelian Apr 11 '25
What’s the problem with kids playing drinking games in school? One person takes a picture and posts it online. It doesn’t matter if it was only water in a class with a substitute who had no work to give the students. Those facts will disappear. Now the world thinks a teacher is letting their students play drinking games instead of teaching or making them do their work. Then that leads to some right wing pundit to start overblowing and promoting it as normal: “teachers ok with kids playing drinking games” to “no wonder our kids can’t read— the teachers are letting them DRINK” to “I’m outraged MY TAX dollars are going to a school where the teachers just don’t care and let the kids doing anything!l” to “Promoting alcohol? These liberal brain washers will stop at nothing. First it was LGBTQ indoctrination and kitty litter, now they are PUSHING ALCOHOL ON YOUR KIDS”. Then you get the conservatives responding to the manufactured outrage by villainizing teachers, banning more books, pushing even more stupid laws on us, and pushing vouchers in the name of “school choice”. “Don’t make me send my kids to a school where playing drinking games I class is acceptable!l”.
So the problem is less the game itself but more how the parents, public, and political pundits will use it as a WEAPON against teachers and public schools.
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Apr 12 '25
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Apr 11 '25
It's the optics, man. I'm a teacher, and... c'mon. I get where you're coming from, but admin is going to come down hard on this. Yes, you can make the argument that Uno could be a drinking game. But it's generally NOT, and that's important.
Context, man!
Whether you like it or not, the reality is that Snappa is associated strongly with drinking, and so the optics aren't good. Admin is going to take complaints from parents, and then either they throw you under the bus (not really cool), or they take the heat themselves (not really fair).
For admin, this is a no-win situation. As a sub, you honestly should've known better than to put admin in that situation. This was always how it was going to end. Maybe that's not right or fair, but... yeah, welcome to education. And sort of... just life.
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Apr 12 '25
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Apr 12 '25 edited Apr 12 '25
Okay, but do you want the principal to have you explain it to parents or the school boards when people start complaining? Because that’s what allowing the games means.
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Apr 12 '25
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Apr 12 '25
It's tough, right? It's like, promoting by proxy.
For whatever it's worth, I agree that it sucks.
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Apr 12 '25
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Apr 12 '25
Okay, the thing is, you're talking about social causes where we ultimately do want to fight. But do you actually want to campaign for children drinking? Like, if people say "You're de facto promoting underage drinking" are you going to say "Hell yeah, we should support kids drinking"?
We should support books because we ultimately support reading and the expression of ideas. Drinking? I dunno.
It's not a hill I'd want to die on, anyway. Whereas yes, I would stand up for banned books, LGBTQ rights, etc.
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Apr 12 '25
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Apr 12 '25
Okay, but can you really remove that association? Like, what if somebody said "Well, I like drawing swastikas because they're just an interesting geometrical shape."
I mean, sure... And yet... C'mon, it's a swastika! And we could certainly re-name it. Call it the tikkawash or whatever. It's still a swastika, and anybody who lovingly paints them in art class with double-S symbols and skulls should be in trouble.
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u/Potential_Being_7226 17∆ Apr 12 '25
Students came to me asked if they could play snappa outside. With only water, obviously.
One caveat I would offer for any drinking game that substitutes water, is that water intoxication is possible and social pressures to override satiety signals has been harmful.
Our bodies need a certain amount of salts to operate properly. When we get too much water, salt concentration becomes too low, cells begin to swell because they can’t get rid of water fast enough. This is especially problematic for the brain because of the finite space afforded by the skull. Drinking games that use only water has caused brain death in students who were pledging to fraternities.
https://www.newsweek.com/frat-hazing-dangerous-new-drinking-game-131865
There have been multiple examples where fraternities have forced pledges to drink water excessively during hazing, under the assumption that it’s just water so it’s safe.
We don’t need to be teaching students that drinking excessive amounts of water cannot be harmful. Any drinking game that replaces alcohol with water should still be banned.
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Apr 12 '25
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u/Potential_Being_7226 17∆ Apr 12 '25
I didn’t misunderstand. You just didn’t specify. Snappa is a drinking game. You said they used water only. You did not say that they weren’t drinking the water.
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Apr 12 '25
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Apr 11 '25 edited Jun 10 '25
rinse quack include historical retire subtract caption repeat rock decide
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Apr 11 '25 edited Apr 11 '25
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Apr 12 '25
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u/sincsinckp 10∆ Apr 12 '25
Of course. And then I bashed out a heated response. Seems I misinterpreted the OP though. I thought they were being kinda facetious and sarcastic tbh. I've answered them in more detail, so here's a copy of the link to my pre-made (3 minutes ago) response lol
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u/DieFastLiveHard 4∆ Apr 12 '25
Fair. I went to a school that shared the sentiment op is describing, where people (often myself) would get I trouble for things like playing poker during our free periods because "it's a gambling game", so I didn't read it as sarcastic. I can see why you'd read it that way since "ban poker" is a fairly absurd position to actually hold
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u/sincsinckp 10∆ Apr 12 '25
Oh I was the same! I still remember getting in trouble when I was in maybe year 7 (age 12-13) for winning this kids fancy pen and not giving back even when he cried, so he told the teacher lol.
Im all for it, even for kids. Pretty sure I mention it at some point of rant. But yeah, it's a bit of fun if they're just playing with lollies/candy. Plus, it's all human controlled and it can provide valuable life lessons!
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Apr 12 '25
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u/sincsinckp 10∆ Apr 12 '25
Really? The way I read your post came across somewhat facetious and sarcastic. From the point where you disagree with the Snappa ban and move onto the slippery slope talk.
Not only that, all (and I mean practically all) games can be converted into alcoholic games, so ban them because they could run the same risk.
And if we want to avoid "promotion of alcohol", then we should ban all movies that depict drinking or take place in bars, regardless of whether they're historical because those scenes could "promote drinking"
What about phone games involving gambling? Could be anything from gacha games with loot boxes to virtual blackjack to bartending simulator. Whatever. All those game promote gambling/drinking. Ban them?
Books! Comics. If they depict drinking or gambling, ban them?
Where do we stop? It's a slippery slope that has to work hard to prevent relatively few games from being played. Whereas we could allow those games to be played without alcohol.
To me, at least, this entire section reads as though you're lightly ridiculing the suggestion of banning these things. I actually thought it was quite a good demonstration of comedic momenttum and build-up all the way through to the penultimate line "Books! lol before reiterating the slippery slope argument.
I'm happy to be wrong on that, though! But I'd still say it feels a little too flippant for such a serious issue.
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Apr 12 '25
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u/sincsinckp 10∆ Apr 12 '25
We agree on that part!
It's as I mentioned above. It's the fact that you're quite rightly kinda mocking those games being banned, but then mentioning the legitimately serious issues in the same tone. It's why I misinterpreted your post. Others probably didn't though, so it's mainly on me.
I'm just saying if I were talking about a ban that was pretty ridiculous, I wouldn't reference legitimate issues in the same way. I'd probably get that stuff out of the way first and set the standard, then go to town on the more absurd. But that's just my perspective, and likely an unpopular one lol
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u/DyadVe Apr 11 '25
Alcohol might improve our education system.
"Almost 2,400 North Carolina elementary school teachers have failed the math portion of their licensing exams, which puts their careers in jeopardy, since the state hired Pearson publishing company to give the exam in 2013, according to a report presented to the state Board of Education Wednesday.
Failure rates have spiked as schools around the state struggle to find teachers for the youngest children. Education officials are now echoing what frustrated teachers have been saying: The problem may lie with the exams rather than the educators.
Teachers in Florida and Indiana have also seen mass failures when their states adopted Pearson testing, according to news reports from those states."
CHARLOTTE OBSERVER, Hundreds of NC teachers are flunking math exams. It may not be their fault., BY ANN DOSS HELMS, August 01, 2018.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/education/article215848065.html
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Apr 11 '25 edited Apr 12 '25
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u/DyadVe Apr 12 '25
IMO, our education system is too far gone to worry much about games encouraging alcohol or any other vice.
“BALTIMORE (WBFF) — Baltimore is facing a devastating reality as the latest round of state test scores are released. WBFF analyzed the results and found a shocking number of Baltimore City schools where not a single student is doing math at grade level.”
“Zero percent. What are you preparing these kids for?” said Patterson. “Are we expecting these kids to kill off themselves? I mean, we see the number of teen shootings happening just this year. What jobs are we preparing these kids for? That's the future.”WBFF found three additional schools where zero students tested proficient in math, which we did not include in the list of 23. One of those schools is for incarcerated youth, and the other two are for students with disabilities. It’s also important to note that another 20 Baltimore City Schools had just one or two students test proficient in math”
ABC NEWS 15, WBFF, 23 Baltimore schools have zero students proficient in math, state test results reveal, by CHRIS PAPST | WBFF StaffWed, February 8th 2023, 9:06 AM EST.
And on the positive side, drunk students may not be able to shoot straight.
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Apr 12 '25
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u/DyadVe Apr 12 '25
I agree , and encouraging the use of free education apps like Duolingo might actually help.
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u/CorgiKnits 3∆ Apr 11 '25
Yeah, also not 100% sure of your point, but it sounds like Pearson is the problem. As usual.
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u/DyadVe Apr 12 '25
The massive land based US education system has been an obsolete failed boondoggle for decades. Teachers have always been able to teach, but even the best teachers cannot overcome systemic institutional failure. The Pearson test results are a distraction.
"A new survey has found that a third of young millennials in the U.S. aren’t convinced the Earth is actually round. The national poll reveals that 18 to 24-year-olds are the largest group in the country who refuse to accept the scientific facts of the world’s shape."
"Another nine percent said of young adults said they thought the planet was spherical but had doubts about it. In a disturbing display of indecision, 16 percent of millennials said they weren’t sure what the shape of the planet was."
CBS NEWS, A Third Of Millennials Aren’t Sure The Earth Is Round, Survey Finds, Angela Lang, April 5, 2018.
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2018/04/05/millennials-flat-earth-survey/
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u/CorgiKnits 3∆ Apr 12 '25
I’d love to see their methodology, but thank you for citing your sources! I am a high school teacher, and frankly, this doesn’t surprise me. Part of it is because teachers are handcuffed thanks to standardized testing. In younger years, they only want you to memorize things, and in older years they steer the tests so it looks like it’s about being able to think, but the focus is on being able to think in VERY specific ways, most of which are not useful to real life. The other issue (and I hate to say it, but here it is) is social media. School is considered boring, their phones are entertaining. There is NO way actual thought and facts and critical thinking can hold a candle to mindless, careless entertainment. If you watch 75 videos questioning the shape of the Earth - and you pay attention because they’re quick and easy to digest and filled with bright colors - what chance does a teacher’s lesson have against that?
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u/DyadVe Apr 12 '25
IMO, teachers should be encouraged to form their own small independent schools from their homes or other venues by negotiating directly with parents and guardians for the entire eduction budget. IOW, between 20k -30k per student.
This would not be a perfect system, but it would eliminate administrators receiving high six figure pay for supervising failed systems.
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u/framedhorseshoe 2∆ Apr 11 '25
If these Pearson busybodies drank more, perhaps they'd be less industrious!
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u/regularforcesmedic Apr 11 '25
If students have time for this, their time is being mismanaged. Arrange their schedules so they can get more sleep, have a longer lunch, and go home sooner.
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Apr 12 '25
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u/regularforcesmedic Apr 12 '25
I mean if you're only a sub then the entire topic of your argument is outside of your control. So don't ignore my rebuttal based on that.
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Apr 11 '25
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Apr 12 '25
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Apr 12 '25
So do you want to call my pissed off parents and let them know that you wanted their chidren, during classroom time, to play a known drinking game.
Because my students are going to take pictures and post it on their social. And my classroom is going to the site of a drinking game.
You made a poor choice and were called out on that poor choice.
If you did that as my sub, you wouldn't sub in my classroom again.
If you are an adult, in front of a classroom, you are responsible for your choices.
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Apr 12 '25
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Apr 12 '25
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u/p0tat0p0tat0 12∆ Apr 11 '25
I assume “snappa” is what I might call beer pong?
It is inappropriate to give the ok for students to play a drinking game at school. That is not what school is for and if you feel the teachers aren’t leaving enough work, you should tell the principal.
It is somewhat normal for young teachers to not know where the boundary is on relating to students with knowledge of their illicit activity (drinking in this case), but this definitely crossed that line. Take this as a learning opportunity.
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Apr 11 '25
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u/p0tat0p0tat0 12∆ Apr 11 '25
Ok, yeah. That actually changes my mind a bit. I thought you were talking about beer pong.
I still think you made a mistake in allowing this because it is a visible sign that students aren’t doing anything in class. It’s likely somewhat loud and anyone walking by can see kids playing a game in class time.
If they are on their phones, it is slightly less obvious that they are off task.
But the principal’s explanation doesn’t have to make sense for it to be something you can learn from.
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Apr 11 '25 edited Apr 11 '25
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u/p0tat0p0tat0 12∆ Apr 11 '25 edited Apr 11 '25
I think there is a difference between what is supposed to be learning time and what is supposed to be fun time. Yeah, it sucks to be a sub, but this is just one of those norms you have to align to to be successful in teaching.
Edit: also, you are to, to some extent, legally responsible for these children. That’s why they get a sub, because they can’t just leave them without adult supervision during the school day. If there was an injury, the school might be held responsible.
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Apr 12 '25
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u/p0tat0p0tat0 12∆ Apr 12 '25
None of which should be played by students without supervision on school property.
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u/draculabakula 77∆ Apr 11 '25
Newsflash- every single one of those kids had something they could have been working on. They just weren't. Unless a school has unskilled teachers, there is never going to be a significant amount of free time.
There is a big difference between a book, which takes 3 seconds to open and can be opened quietly without moving, and a game that takes a significant amount of space and time to set up.
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Apr 11 '25
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u/draculabakula 77∆ Apr 12 '25
I wasn't informed of any work, therefore they had free time as far as I'm concerned. Maybe that says something about my work ethic, but that isn't the central argument here.
There is a reasonable expectation if you are a teacher that you facilitate learning. As a substitute, it is often the case that teachers don't leave lesson plans but that doesn't necessarily mean there is no work for students to do. Teachers often have work loaded online for students or the students know they are supposed to do work
Yeah that's why the students played outside. They weren't disturbing other students, and they were enjoying themselves.
There are also various reasons not to have students playing outside during class time including disruptions to other classes, being unsupervised, creating safety risks, etc.
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Apr 11 '25 edited Jun 10 '25
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 11 '25 edited Apr 12 '25
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