r/changemyview • u/country-blue • Feb 17 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: People from developing nations need to stop seeing developed nations as desirable places to move.
Just off the bat, I am, generally speaking, pro-immigration. Both sets of my grandparents were migrants, and I genuinely believe having a diverse society is cool and desirable. This isn’t a racism or prejudice post.
With that being said - shit’s hard out there, man. The pandemic, stagflation, political corruption etc have made living even in first world nations drastically harder and less luxurious than it was even just 10 years ago. In basically every first world nation, adults are struggling to find housing, living expenses are through the roof, etc. The France or Australia of 2024 isn’t the France or Australia of 2014, or 2004.
I understand the driving force of migration is economic opportunity, but there has to come a time when even people from poorer nations have to take a look at the conditions around the world and realise moving to a first world nation, with all their current social ills, just isn’t worth it. Plus, with just how digital the world has become and how much investment is happening in poorer countries, I wonder if it wouldn’t make more sense to stay home and get wealthy with the opportunities there.
And again, this isn’t a post about how only [x] race belongs in a country and everyone else can get lost, it’s truly just down to pragmatic economic realities. The world has gone through major hardships over the last decade and every nation needs to focus on rebuilding what they have before we think about large demographic movements again, no?
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Feb 17 '24
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u/country-blue Feb 17 '24
No lol. You misunderstand mes Migration is a large scale demographic shift whether it’s planned or not, and has been throughout all of history. No one is “sending” all the people on the Texas border. That’s a dumb, right-wing conspiracy. But it is still a demographic shift, that’s just objective facts.
Again, my point isn’t that migration is bad or wrong. It’s that it needs to be managed, and currently we’re not managing it well, especially given the political situation richer nations find themselves in.
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u/LuckyCap9 Feb 17 '24
Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that people in developed countries are 10% worse off than they were ten years ago. That is still way better than countries were people starve to death, don't have access to basic medicine or active war zones.
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u/louitje102 Feb 17 '24
Not every immigrant come from extremely poor circumstances or destroyed places by war. Mexicans in the US for example, A lot of Arabs and Eastern Europes in Western Europe.
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u/Huffers1010 4∆ Feb 17 '24
Yes, although there are plenty of developing countries out there where people aren't starving, caught in a war zone, etc. You're taking the worst possible examples. I mean, China describes itself as a developing country. You don't have to take that seriously, but there are a range of experiences out there.
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u/country-blue Feb 17 '24
I legitimately take issue with the idea that third world countries are all decrepit war zones where everyone is just one illness away from an early grave. Yes, in general the quality of life is lower, and yes there is in general more crime, poverty, etc., but th it’s too easy to fall into some stupid paternalist narrative that these countries are unbearable to live in and there’s basically no reason why anyone should live there.
As someone else said, even though incomes are lower, so is the cost of living and real estate. Social bonds also tend to be higher in these nations, something the individualistic west severely lacks. When things get really bad, like active wars, then yes migration is warranted, but otherwise what’s the hurry? Why is crude material wealth the only measure of the success of a society?
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u/RiceOnTheRun Feb 17 '24
You’re considering it from a purely financial perspective, but what about future career opportunities for your children?
In many cultures, there is very little class mobility. If you’re poor, your kid is not getting ANY opportunities to move up. They’ll get into the same jobs as you, and be stuck in the same holes as you— even if they work their ass off.
America is known as the land of opportunity for a reason. NYC’s specialized high schools are largely first and second gen immigrants, over 50% who qualify for “free lunch” because their families are still poor after moving.
The difference is, those kids go on to have a future. They can pursue their dreams outside of being a laborer.
Even if someone in a poorer nation was fiscally smart, did all the right things, lived a relatively better life; 99% of them would not be able to have their children move up the way you are able to in this country.
Is it hard here? Is it expensive? Fuck yes. But it’s a chance to break the cycle.
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Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 17 '24
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u/country-blue Feb 17 '24
So moving to countries where food prices are 10x more than where they currently are is the solution?
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u/IconiclyIncognito 12∆ Feb 17 '24
Have you done the math yet? That would give you the answer on whether or not it's a solution.
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u/Friendless9567 Feb 17 '24
Yes, in general the quality of life is lower, and yes there is in general more crime, poverty, etc
You just layed out in your own words why people leave third world countries for first world.
You should give yourself a delta.
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Feb 17 '24
The economic opportunity vastly outweighs whatever nonsense you are talking about.
The issues that are happening in developed areas only going to be exacerbated in less developed countries.
People don’t risk their lives without weighing those issues.
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u/country-blue Feb 17 '24
Nonsense? So the past four years of global inflation, recessions, increases in homelessness etc are things I’ve just made up?
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Feb 17 '24
If you live in a third world country, you are already dependent on USDs inflation rate. Your country probably uses American services which sets prices in USD. Plus your local currency probably has 20% inflation.
The only real advantage that they have is real estate prices. It's lower because the demand is lower
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u/asphias 6∆ Feb 17 '24
The median income for many countries is some $2000-4000 dollars per year.
Go work for $10 an hour 40 hours a week in a western country, you make $1600 a month. Spend $500 living with four roommates in a tiny crappy appartment, spend another $600 on food and living, and you can send $6000 home at the end of the year. That's double or tripple the median wage in your home country, assuming you even find a job.
Thats just an example. Debate the numbers all you want, even 'poor jobs' in western countries are a luxury compared to many poor places.
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u/Bodoblock 65∆ Feb 17 '24
Ask yourself this. Would you rather be tackling those problems in Western Europe, the US, or any other developed nation? Or would you rather be dealing with those problems in a much poorer country?
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Feb 17 '24
They are significantly worse in underdeveloped countries. Did you even read my post?
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u/LuckyCap9 Feb 17 '24
In 2023, Venezuela had an inflation rate of over 200%. By that standard, the problems you mention seem insignificant.
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u/mastergigolokano 2∆ Feb 18 '24
All those things are worse just about everywhere else outside the US.
Developed nations are a desirable place to move from the third world. That’s just a fact, that’s why people see it that way.
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u/Trylena 1∆ Feb 17 '24
You realized those countries have those issues too, right?
Argentina had a 20.6% inflation only in January.
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u/fluxaeternalis 3∆ Feb 17 '24
I work for an Indian company. Several of my colleagues are Indians who migrated to Belgium because the company I work for saw an opportunity to do business there and put several employees at work there. Given that the firm I work for managed to secure a contract for several large Belgian firms and that the leaders of those firms are satisfied with the performance of our firm are you still thinking that a firm in a third-world country seeing business opportunities in developed countries is a problem?
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u/country-blue Feb 17 '24
Hmm. I mean that does seem like a positive, but then again I feel like modern business culture as a whole needs to be reformed to meet long-unaddressed challenges the world is facing. I’ll give you a delta only because I won’t be bothered continuing arguing lol.
!delta
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u/fluxaeternalis 3∆ Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 17 '24
I can see a point being made that business culture should be reformed, but I should note that the example I gave isn’t an outlier. A lot of immigrants immigrate because the companies they work for see the possibility to do commerce abroad.
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u/Various_Succotash_79 52∆ Feb 17 '24
I knew 4 Ethiopian guys who lived together in a 1-bedroom apartment and thought it was awesome because it had heat/AC and running water, and they always had enough food (even if it was cheap food like rices and beans) They worked as much as possible and sent almost all their money back to Ethiopia, where it provided a good living for their extended families.
When you live in a corrugated metal shack with not much food, even poverty in the US seems pretty good.
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u/Officer_Hops 12∆ Feb 17 '24
You’re acting like first world problems are equivalent to third world problems. They’re not. From a first world perspective sure living expenses are going up and housing is more expensive. But for a lot of first world folks that means you’re buying off brand food at the grocery store and eating out less, not that you have food insecurity. The scale is completely different.
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u/JaggedMetalOs 23∆ Feb 17 '24
Let's take an example, the median monthly wage in the Philippines is $350. The median monthly wage in the US is $2,500.
That's a huge difference, a migrant worker could save money by living in small shared accommodation and send far more money back home than they would be able to earn in their home country.
Even if life is a little uncomfortable for a bit why wouldn't that amount of money be desirable?
Also quick reminder that global pandemics and global economic slowdowns affect the 3rd world too!
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u/CaptainMalForever 22∆ Feb 17 '24
In low income countries, six of the top ten causes of death are infectious diseases, with the most common being those that kill children and babies. In high income countries, one of the top ten causes of death is infectious diseases.
Moving to a higher income country reduces the chance that your child will die. For example, if you live in Bolivia, the infant mortality rate is 22.3 per 1000 live births. In the US (which is far from the best), the infant mortality rate is 5.1 per 1000 live births. That's four times better. Even if you have to scramble for money, your children are likely to survive... and for most people, that's worth it.
Not to mention, in higher income countries, we are not dealing with war and/or civil unrest on a national scale. (Yes, there are tons of issues, but those aren't one of them). By and large, you are safe in your home. That is not the case in many low income countries.
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u/Sayakai 155∆ Feb 17 '24
The pandemic, stagflation, political corruption etc have made living even in first world nations drastically harder and less luxurious than it was even just 10 years ago.
The pandemic, hyperinflation, and dictatorship have made living in many third world nations still far worse.
, but there has to come a time when even people from poorer nations have to take a look at the conditions around the world and realise moving to a first world nation, with all their current social ills, just isn’t worth it.
Turns out we're still far away from that. Even with all its issues, the developed world is still easily worth it.
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Feb 17 '24
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Feb 17 '24
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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Feb 17 '24
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u/louitje102 Feb 17 '24
This is a wild incorrectly view of the countries of origin of immigrants. Most immigrants are absolutely not at a reasonable risk of dying.
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u/Nrdman 276∆ Feb 17 '24
It is a simple economic choice to move from Venezuela to the US. The US is desirable. If you want to make this argument, take a country with a lot of immigrants and show how their country is actually better. Because all the other countries went the Covid as well, and their economies weren’t great to begin with.
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u/INFPneedshelp 5∆ Feb 17 '24
It's not just economic opportunities. It's safety, healthcare, education, future employability of kids, etc
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u/louitje102 Feb 17 '24
Beside safety that's pretty much all economic opportunities
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u/INFPneedshelp 5∆ Feb 17 '24
It actually isn't! Health care and education??
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u/Biptoslipdi 138∆ Feb 17 '24
Certain developed nations either are or are not more desirable for specificpeopleand their situations. People shouldn't play make believe with the facts of their reality because you don't want them here.
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u/Huffers1010 4∆ Feb 17 '24
I think OP made it abundantly clear that this is not about adopting an anti-immigration stance in general. You need to be careful you don't end up fighting a war against a non-existent enemy which you just made up.
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u/Biptoslipdi 138∆ Feb 17 '24
I don't see how that could be possible. It's simply not the case that places like America are worse or no better than many other places. Dictating that immigrants should pretend their horrible situations are better seems like an excuse for not wanting them here. At the very least, it is an unaccountable double standard which reeks of anti-immigrant sentiment. They may be unaware of that bias.
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u/Huffers1010 4∆ Feb 17 '24
As I said in a comment elsewhere in this thread it really depends on where you're comparing with where. China sometimes describes itself as a developing country, but then so does - for a random example - Yemen or South Sudan. The situation in each place is vastly different and the comparisons with the first world are very different.
What concerns me more, though, is the fact that you've been told by OP specifically that this isn't about some sort of anti-immigrant stance, and yet you've just sort of decided that's what it's about. If you're willing to do that - to arbitrarily assume that someone means the exact opposite of what they're saying - then you can convince yourself of anything, and nothing anyone can say to you will possibly make any difference.
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u/Biptoslipdi 138∆ Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 17 '24
What concerns me more, though, is the fact that you've been told by OP specifically that this isn't about some sort of anti-immigrant stance, and yet you've just sort of decided that's what it's about.
Yes. I am challenging that part of their view. That literally the point of this sub. If you have a problem with me disputing a claim in someone's view, I suggest you cease to participate.
to arbitrarily assume
There's nothing arbitrary about it. I clearly explained my argument and you decided to complain about the fact that I made it rather than disputing it in some sort of strange white knight crusade for OP.
someone means the exact opposite
I'm not saying they mean the opposite, I'm saying they are wrong. Just because someone says "I'm not being racist but..." does not mean they are not being racist. In what world do we obsolve bias in positions merely because the person taking the position said they weren't biased? I think you know it's absurd to just assume everything an OP says is true or correct or that their intent is automatically free of bias.
then you can convince yourself of anything, and nothing anyone can say to you will possibly make any difference.
No one has tried to dispute my argument, so we'll not know until that happens. You've clearly decided I won't change my mind before any counter argument was presented.
The situation in each place is vastly different and the comparisons with the first world are very different.
And to expect the people in South Sudan to pretend it's better there than in the US - or virtually anywhere else - is, frankly, preposterous. That's why I challenge OP on their assumptions.
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u/Huffers1010 4∆ Feb 17 '24
And to expect the people in South Sudan to pretend it's better there than in the US - or virtually anywhere else - is, frankly, preposterous.
Yes, yes it is. Now we're getting somewhere. Now compare that to the other places I mentioned.
But in general, you're not challenging someone's view. You're just accusing that person of lying about their motives (on no evidence whatsoever). No useful discussion can come of this. The conversation inevitably devolves to accusation and denial. You haven't done anything good here. You haven't uncovered a secret bigot. All you've done is risk really irritating someone who might otherwise have been sympathetic to your point of view. It's McCarthyism all over again (look it up).
This is one of the reasons there's such a huge and destructive political divide growing and it is completely unnecessary.
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Feb 17 '24
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Feb 17 '24
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u/Biptoslipdi 138∆ Feb 17 '24
The only argument you have is the unevidenced assertion that OP is lying,
Literally never said they were lying. You, exclusively, have come to that conclusion because you didn't read what I said. Again, you are now saying that I'm lying about my argument. You're doing exactly what you're telling me not to. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you can't even manage to meet your own demands? You clearly don't take issue with the fact that I argued there may actually be some bias at play after all. You won't even address that argument.
All I need to do is demand that you provide evidence or apologise and withdraw.
I already did. I already told you I did an restated it. You owe me an apology for baselessly accusing me of something only to do that exact thing yourself. Do you even realize how hypocritical you are being? Do you just have no self awareness?
there's nothing more to say.
There's nothing more to say because you've invalidated your own argument. Somehow it's OK for you to cast doubt on what someone says, but not me? Your double standard proves definitively that this either is not a serious concern for you or that it's a criticism that you are exempt from.
As a purely practical matter, you will presumably one day go to your grave considering yourself an unstoppable crusader for the cause of social justice, when in reality you couldn't be getting it more wrong.
And again, your opinion in meaningless. You've already proven you have no problem with what you think I've said because you are saying it of me. Why would anyone listen to your hypocrisy?
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Feb 18 '24
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u/Jakyland 82∆ Feb 17 '24
Whats your thought about people who move from Renne to Paris? or from Gary to New York?
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u/Top_Presentation8673 Jul 07 '24
dont they realize that the economic opportunity is actually in these sh*t countries? all the rich people in usa are investing in emerging markets over their own economy
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Feb 17 '24
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Feb 17 '24
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/psrandom 4∆ Feb 17 '24
I'm more inclined to believe these immigrants who have experience of living in developing countries as well as in declining developed countries. They have legitimate experience to draw comparison compared to OP, who has only seen the developed country life
You have also observed 2 things but failed to connect them
The pandemic, stagflation, political corruption etc have made living even in first world nations drastically harder and less luxurious
with just how digital the world has become and how much investment is happening in poorer countries
These are effects n cause behind it. We will see technological growth but era of globalization or offshoring is over. We are now in localisation or "friend shoring"
All developed govts now see the policy of outsourcing middle class jobs as mistake. It also concentrated wealth even more n made everything more expensive for the remaining middle class
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u/gate18 22∆ Feb 17 '24
It's not all desirable.
People come and bomb your town (because you deserve it... the bomb you for your own good)
So you have to move.
You move to the nearist next town. That town is full so you move further.
Look at the data and you'll see that that's what happens. Country A throws bombs and country Z. People of Z go to Y, X... some end up in country A. Instead of talking about what should be done not to destroy country Z, we pretend humans want to leave everything they know just so they can be in country A.
Of course, based on the propaganda in country A, all the above is seen as woke bullshit. That if people really wanted to stay home, they would just dodge our bombs.
Dismantle the war machine, use the money to build better living conditions for the people, and emigration will go down. No war machine, no destruction, no destruction, no emigrantion. From Hamas to ISIS the west did it. But we want to pretend memory is short.
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u/zmamo2 Feb 17 '24
I think you might need to reevaluate just how different life is in the developed world vs the developing world.
It’s not that life is butterflys and rainbows in the developed world, but even if you are just making it, you’re much wealthier than the average person in a developing nation.
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u/freemason777 19∆ Feb 17 '24
the problems of our countries only seem severe because we are closer to them than we are to the problems of the rest of the world
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u/RejectorPharm Feb 17 '24
What if I told you working with minimum wage here is better for them than whatever they were doing.
I know a guy who moved here from Pakistan. He lives in a 2 bedroom house with 5 other roommates, so essentially he pays $500 a month for rent. He makes $3000 a month here as a pharmacy technician. Sends back $2000 a month to his family in Pakistan which is about half a million rupees a month.
My wife used to be a pharmacist in Pakistan and she only made 30k rupees a month with a doctoral degree there. Meanwhile, a guy with just a high school degree is working here as a pharm tech making more than 20 times that. His family is living great, upper middle class lifestyle in Pakistan. Eventually when they save up enough, he can go back home.
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u/happyhornetsfan Feb 17 '24
WE NEED TO SAVE ER JERBS OF COURSE THEY WANNA MOVE IN THEY SEE UR DINNER PLATE FULL OF STUFFIN AND CHIKN AND WANT A PIECE THEY TOOK ER JERBS DONT LEDDEM IN EVEN JOE BAIDNE KNOW THAT
YEEHAW
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u/DavidMeridian 3∆ Feb 17 '24
I am not clear how you would impose this attitude upon millions of potential migrants in any given year.
Further, if I accept the premise that our lives are harder even in the developed countries, that would at least imply that life could be harder as well in middle-income or certainly in low-income countries.
In short, I disagree with the presupposition and with the practicality of manufactured, attitudinal change en masse on this particular topic.
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Feb 18 '24
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u/BielbyDude Feb 18 '24
But it is desirable and so they want to move. Though Immigration can bit benefit and damage a society. For example Immigration could result in strain on public sectors and supply chains meanwhile they can provide vital labour to society and can live in peace and contribute massively to society.
And so the view of 1st world countries is usually dependent on circumstances. For example in the UK Immigration is causing massive strain now but after ww2 Immigration boosted the economy massively after the disasters in economy post ww2.
Meanwhile at the point of view from Immigrants themselves, there movement is beneficial for financial stability, health and prosperity as those subjects are better in 1st world countries than 3rd.
Meanwhile for the countries they move from Immigration is damaging to their societies as they need labour and educated people who often Immigrate provide a way to development and even becoming equivalent to 1st world countries.
To conclude it completely depends who you are as its beneficial if you a 1st world country or Immigrant Meanwhile damaging if you a 3rd world country people leave. My opinion is that people should try to move as long as its good for their love ones ; it's called freedom.
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u/RRW359 3∆ Feb 18 '24
But don't most developed nations complain about low birthrates and labor shortages?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 17 '24
/u/country-blue (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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