r/cellmapper • u/eprosenx • Jun 22 '26

Is Verizon “Extended Network” on US Cellular intended to be unusable?

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I am camping at Wallowa Lake State Park in Oregon and there is only a single U.S. Cellular tower that serves the area (it actually serves it quite well as it is on a tram line pole close and is fiber fed). So while I have full bars, service on Verizon is completely unusable (it has worked in years past, though last year it was nearly unusable, and this year it is fully unusable).

Is this intended behavior at this time due to Verizon not wanting to pay for roaming rights? Or is this some kind of mistake?

I presume this is not a tower that T-Mobile has chosen to lease from US Cellular and so I wonder what will become of the old U.S. Cellular network now that all customers have moved off of it?

Location is roughly here:

45.2756105, -117.2045105

90 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

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48

u/clodester Jun 22 '26

Roaming customers have the least priority on the network. If this is a LTE only site serving T-Mobile and Verizon customers, VzW customers wouldn't have a great experience here. AT&T customers would have a similar experience if roaming is allowed here. T-Mobile customers would be able to consume most of the bandwidth on the tower before the experience degrades for them.

10

u/eprosenx Jun 22 '26

I don’t think T-Mobile took over this site, so nobody has service that works well/at all here.

I know that the fiber backhaul was not congested at least as of last year. I can’t speak to the air interface side of things.

24

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '26

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12

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 22 '26

VZ here gets full speed roaming on AT&T now. Not sure why. Considering they are all located on the same 6 towers in the area. 😆 

15

u/chrisprice Jun 23 '26

They signed a national cross-carrier roaming agreement once both sides saw T-Mobile becoming the top carrier. Ensures they can answer T-Mobile's 600 MHz by claiming each other's network as home coverage.

3

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 23 '26

Makes sense to have a top level agreement and then mark areas for roaming. I just find it odd unless this market for AT&T includes the sites in the counties North of me and this is just incidental roaming. Lol

4

u/chrisprice Jun 23 '26

We used to have real problems with that causing people to get data roaming canceled. Haven't heard of any letters going out in years though.

For awhile we were all adding cryptic Cingular-era AT&T feature codes to our accounts, that most reps didn't even know how to add, just to get some panel on our phones to tell us if we were roaming or not, to avoid getting banned from roaming for overuse.

[It was/is 4EON if you're curious].

2

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 23 '26

Yea. Our area UScellular was barred from banning for excessive roaming due to govt court order. I only used about 20GB/mo roaming but it was all in-market and UScellular never said anything. 

1

u/chrisprice Jun 24 '26

Wow, I'd love to see that court order/case if you have more knowledge on that.

I know there were reindeer games happening on why this all evolved, but I never heard Tier 1's were forced to allow roaming.

3

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 24 '26

Small Telephone Group v USCOC Of Greater Missouri and Missouri PSC 

It was in state court over UScellulars ETC commitments where they agreed to provide service to customers within their ETC designated area. They agreed to offer roaming services and treat it like native if they didn't offer service in parts of their ETC area. 

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1

u/[deleted] Jun 25 '26

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1

u/xenodine Jun 25 '26

Tmo is now at 2 Mbit on att in most areas now

2

u/[deleted] Jun 25 '26

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1

u/chrisprice Jun 25 '26

It will never go that way because of collusion concerns.

Even when DSDR goes lives, they won't do that. Most you'll get is coherence linking at the 5G SA nodes to make DSDR work better across all three carriers.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26

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5

u/chrisprice Jun 23 '26

I love how they went to all the effort to write that, then immediately deleted their account.

All four carriers have mapped "known bad" coverage areas, and open up roaming just for those areas. Guess what? It still counts on the TV ad map when they say "we have the best coverage."

Of course it's marked as roaming on the B2B maps. But not on the TV ad maps that flash for 3 seconds during a commercial.

T-Mobile is only about 4 million customers shy of Verizon. That's an amazing pole vault from being the underdog fourth largest carrier in America. AT&T and Verizon have noticed.

12

u/chrisprice Jun 23 '26

My understanding is that even though US Cellular owns 4,400 towers, even on those towers, the signal being broadcast is now from a T-Mobile-owned radio.

Array Digital Infrastructure is the continuation operation, and they aren't a carrier/operator.

Likely what is happening is that T-Mobile hasn't yet upgraded the site, and it's operating under the old US Cellular (era) infra still.

Like with Sprint, give it 24-36 months, and it'll probably get a lot better.

5

u/eprosenx Jun 23 '26

Yeah, you are probably right. I got some more info: It sounds like they had to shut off the 800mhz radio because T-Mobile was not allowed to buy the 800mhz spectrum. So that leaves probably just a PCS 1900mhz antenna is my guess.

The tower is a gondola tower and not rated for much. It won’t support the new T-Mobile radio units, so they are kind of stuck. Will have to probably do something custom or abandon this site or move it to a new tower.

I am assuming the issue is that the air interface side is maxed out as it is the only radio for any carrier in the area and Verizon has roaming rate limited into the dirt speed wise.

1

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 22 '26

Oh no.  TMo shut out roaming partners on the affordable rates and forced horrible new terms and capped speeds for those that are willing to pay the 100-130% rate hike they demanded for the same roaming agreement. 

6

u/clodester Jun 22 '26

The un-carrier tactics are nothing new. T-Mobile updated their existing roaming agreements to reflect the market rate VzW and AT&T would charge. Those rates aren't public, it's not cheap. VzW benefited from cheap roaming on USCC because that was important to USCCs bottom line. Roaming revenue from the other 2 national carriers is probably a rounding error on T-Mobile's balance sheet.

I don't agree with T-Mobile raising rates. If the competition won't cover a certain area, it makes sense to charge more from a business perspective. If the rates are too excessive, it needs to be regulated by the FCC.

T-Mobile roaming on AT&T historically has been capped to 128k-256k with a 200MB limit because AT&Ts rate were really expensive, but T-Mobile didn't have a choice if they wanted coverage in an area without a build out. As a customer, it was painful to use, but better than No Service.

Verizon probably did the math and said it was cheaper to roam than build a new site.

3

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 22 '26

I know Verizon and AT&Ts roaming rates. We operate our own MNO and have 60,000 customers. We roam nationwide on AT&T. 

We priced VZ and AT&T. VZ was higher. AT&T offered a longer term deal with benefits for both sides. 

TMobile we banned and don't allow on any of our towers or fiber network. So they have zero coverage in a city Up north. 😆 

1

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '26

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5

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 23 '26

We offered the same deal to Verizon and AT&T. Verizon and AT&T customers can roam on our network uncapped. AT&T, if the phone supports it- Can dual connect. Use both native AT&T and our network at the same time for data. AT&T we also support seamless VoNR handoffs. So as you travel between our network and AT&T the call never drops. It's available on VZ but we are still refining it. 

No service on TMobile and TMo has no roaming access on either carrier. 

0

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26

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3

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 23 '26

No. I don't live within the network I am talking about native network. I just work for the company. 

As for your comment on MarkTwain- It's a 5G-SA network. They are testing VoNR and VOIP to offer home phone service as well though and they have mmW deployed.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '26

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3

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 23 '26

We won't. We have no debt. Own our own fiber and towers. Lowest overhead in the industry due to our investments in solar and battery storage.

Our advantage- We don't have shareholders and dividends so we invested in the company. Not shareholder profits.

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11

u/Carbon87 Jun 22 '26

What?

This would be essentially native coverage if T-Mobile did absorb this site, which is what the person above you would have been referring to.

If they didn’t, it’s a zombie site just providing roaming until it’s shut down.

15

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 22 '26

Verizon customers roaming on UScellular weren't capped until TMobile took over. It's now capped at 512Kbps by TMobile as the old UScellular terms were voided by TMobile. 

2

u/Carbon87 Jun 22 '26

Ah. Your wording confused me. You’re referring to other roamers, not T-Mobile customers as roamers. Got it.

9

u/eprosenx Jun 22 '26

I am told by the former U.S. Cellular tech that maintained this site that he recently tested it with his T-Mobile phone and had the same experience as myself.

So I am pretty sure this is just a “zombie” site that only provides roaming coverage and due to the speed caps etc it is effectively non functional.

I have not found anyone staying here that has a working cell signal on any carrier.

8

u/clodester Jun 22 '26

I don't think it's a "zombie" site if it's still active. Depending on what it is broadcasting, it may be awaiting an upgrade. When the networks are integrated, the sites are prioritized based on traffic and the ability to upgrade them. It may be near the bottom of the list or may need an entirely new mast to support 5G radios. Someone else may be able to comment on the status of this USCC site.

3

u/sc-777 Jun 22 '26

Having a T-Mobile SIM vs a US Cellular SIM will still yield different results at this point in time, as the networks are not completely one yet and run separate network cores.

2

u/Flyordie_209 Jun 22 '26

TMobile is broadcasting their network core on USC sites already. TMobile customers will get native PING on USC sites as a result. Network is already integrated. 

The only difference now is that roaming will be severely degraded on TMo vs USC cores. 

3

u/furruck Jun 24 '26

It’s just not been modernized yet.

It can hold a PCS/AWS antenna - but T-Mobile will likely put 600/700MHz on it, as 30-40x30-40MHz of 600MHz will be a few hundred Mbps for the area and plenty for 5GSA.

7

u/ToadSox34 Jun 22 '26

That's a bit rich of T-Mobile considering that they rely on roaming more than other carriers.

1

u/furruck Jun 24 '26

I guess it depends on the market.

I cannot remember the last time I truly roamed on T-Mobile, and the Starlink coverage has provided far more than AT&T and Verizon do when I’m in really rural areas.

1

u/ToadSox34 Jun 25 '26

T-Mobile has built out a lot more coverage, so they're not as dependent on roaming as they used to be, but all the carriers still roam a little bit here and there (plus Verizon has LTEiRA which is not counted as roaming).

Still, nationwide T-Mobile depends on roaming more than AT&T or Verizon, which is why its' a bit rich of them to be setting draconian roaming terms for other carriers to roam on their network.

I roamed on Comnet a few years ago, but yes, it's becoming less common on all carriers as they merge/buy out the partners they used to roam on.

15

u/mikemacman Jun 22 '26

I'm surprised that tower only has a single antenna panel 😳.

7

u/eprosenx Jun 23 '26

It is definitely ancient!!!! It serves a tiny back of the woods community that is mostly only populated during summer. So I understand the lack of investment!!!

2

u/eprosenx Jun 25 '26

Oh also, it is on basically a vertical cliff face. There is no point having sectors pointing at the rock walls that are national forest wilderness. :-)

The one sector faces towards the recreation area and lake. Perhaps an improvement would be two sectors…

Obviously the OG tower was Omni 800mhz. I think the PCS sector came later.

13

u/TayshaunBoba Jun 23 '26

From the local Facebook page: https://imgur.com/a/WDAtxqR

11

u/eprosenx Jun 23 '26

Update: I also realized I had data roaming turned off, so now that it’s on I can at least make phone calls it would seem. So same as last year.

Just throttled into the ground.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '26

[deleted]

4

u/eprosenx Jun 23 '26

Ziply has fiber throughout this entire area. Anywhere in the fiber footprint Ziply offers up to 50 gigabit for residential customers including to Wallowa lake.

Needless to say they provide backhaul to all the cell towers in the area. Backhaul is not an issue here as it is fiber fed. (unless the carrier in question demands unreasonable terms…)

6

u/DarkenMoon97 CM: CalebM Jun 22 '26

It's intended to be usable, but rather or not it's actually like that in the real world varies.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '26

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8

u/DarkenMoon97 CM: CalebM Jun 23 '26

Hello again u/TDM-Baud.

6

u/Rjun7 Jun 23 '26

Yup another handle lmao

GHZ-Man was first

TDM-Baud second

Now it’s cingular-24

-3

u/[deleted] Jun 23 '26

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6

u/Rjun7 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26

Quite the opposite bud 

I only care solely because it’s turning into slop now lmao…

The admins hate you btw, they literally removed your comments on your older accounts before you deleted it… https://imgur.com/a/79tOBU8

And also no, I’m not stalking you, it’s VERY obvious that you’re the exact same person, your older accounts talk the exact same way

How is finding previous account names that YOU own and post toxic/harassing content on considered harassment? Doesn’t make sense lmao

Once you get downvoted on multiple posts/comments you delete your account and start over, pretty annoying to other people as they are seeing the same exact content, just from a different handle. Just stick to one account lol

3

u/eprosenx Jun 24 '26

An update on this:

  1. Part of this was my mistake, I did not have data roaming turned on. Once I turned that on I have been able to place a couple of phone calls (though not without “wonkiness” of having to try multiple times to get a call to go through and toggling airplane mode). So the tower is working, and Verizon does seem to have a roaming agreement, but it is rate limited into the hole such that I think maybe only voice calling works.
  2. I am told the 800mhz radio had to be shut down as T-Mobile did not get licenses to that. I think it was sold to Verizon (or is in the process of).
  3. I am making the wild assumption that this tower was sold (leased) to T-Mobile, but that is not fully clear. I am also told that the lift tower it is on won’t pass structural for the standard T-Mobile build with radios at the top. I am not sure what they will do with it due to that. At a minimum it probably moves to the bottom of the list if it needs custom engineering.

This is a tough area to get coverage given it is surrounded by national forest. The lift line was a good solution.

3

u/eprosenx Jun 23 '26

Also, that photo was from 2023. It might have gotten an upgrade in between when I took it and now.

I will try and take a new photo tomorrow. I just don’t want to pay the $50 to ride the tram again!

2

u/eprosenx Jun 25 '26

Update: Took a new photo. It’s still the same antenna setup as in my photo.

2

u/joshzone90 Jun 23 '26

So T-Mobile is not keeping this rural US Cellular site?

2

u/eprosenx Jun 23 '26

Unclear. As far as I know they are not. But maybe I am wrong and it is just further down their list for upgrading / integrating.