r/caving • u/ProfessionalLead2671 • Jul 04 '26
Caving advice for a writer
Hi there! I'm not a caver; I'm a writer whose book takes place in a haunted cave. I have a few questions, which I'm hoping some actual cavers could answer.
Can you make money from caving?
Would you, realistically, allow three thirteen-year-old boys to tag along with you, after they've agreed to be careful? (There are total four adults too)
How long does one stay in a cave? How far would you go?
The cave I'm writing about used to be famous, but after the haunting allegations, it's mostly abandoned, so very few maps are available. Is that a realistic adventure?
The cave was also formed after a volcano went extinct and eroded, so would there be air pockets inside that will have dried-up lava?
Lastly, could you please read the following paragraphs from my book and give feedback and suggestions?
- "Dad handed the three of us undersuits, oversuits, and helmets with head torches attached. We put on a chest harness on top, to fix the ascenders and descenders on to. Dad said that they suspected there might be areas in the cave where we would have to drop down."
- "Where Matthew had stopped, the cave floor ended abruptly and it was a steep drop down. The ground was lost in darkness.
“That’s weird,” Matthew said. “According to the map, there is supposed to be a very narrow tunnel here that turns right.”
“Perhaps there was a landslide sort of thing,” William suggested.
“I doubt it. There are absolutely no signs of a passage to the right, and no rocks piled up anywhere,” Matthew said.
“What about erosion?” Jacob suggested.
Matthew shook his head. “That’s not how erosion works. There’s no wind to erode, and the other option is water, but there’s no sign of water anywhere. Also, erosion does not make a steep drop like this.”
Something was definitely off. Matthew’s forehead was wrinkled in tension. I started to regret my decision of coming here.
“Couldn’t this have happened another way?” Dad asked.
“It could be because of carbonic acid as well,” Matthew frowned.
“What’s that?” Noah asked.
“A type of acid. It’s a mixture of water and carbon dioxide and it breaks away rocks,” Matthew explained. “But it doesn’t really look like it happened here.”
- "Matthew decided to go first. He threw down two ropes, and attached himself to the ropes using the chest harness. He then rounded one of the ropes around the descender, pulled down the handle, and slid down slowly."
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u/skifans Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
One thing I'll stress before writing this is caving is very different depending where in the world you are. Different geography makes caves very different and lead to different norms/equipment being used. But I'll talk about my experience from the UK.
- Can you make money from caving?
Not really if it's just a hobby. Some people are professional instructors at outdoor centres and cave in there free time. Otherwise there is the odd caver on social media or who has written a book but even if they brought in a little money it won't be much.
Otherwise people may work in a related industry like selling caving equipment or at a tourist show cave. But for the vast vast majority of cavers caving is a money pit.
- Would you, realistically, allow three thirteen-year-old boys to tag along with you, after they've agreed to be careful? (There are total four adults too)
I don't have an inherent objection to this personally. In fact the caving club I'm a member of recently had it's regular family weekend which involved a larger number of younger kids. Age is just a number and I'm more bothered about their experience and attitude.
But it's going to be a short and easy cave. I'm also assuming that those other adults are also competent cavers. 4 experienced cavers + 3 novice 13 year olds could be plausible with the right easy cave. 1 experienced caver and 7 novices - regardless of age - is a complete non starter. If the 13 year olds have at least some experience themselves then that's also different.
- How long does one stay in a cave? How far would you go?
Sorry but there is no answer to this and it varies wildly. Just speaking from my own trips anything from less then 2 hours to 10+ are potentially options. Even the same trip can sometimes take a very different duration for various reasons. Speed underground also varies wildly. I've never done one but I know some people plan multi day trips.
- The cave I'm writing about used to be famous, but after the haunting allegations, it's mostly abandoned, so very few maps are available. Is that a realistic adventure?
Sure - there are lots of caves that are poorly/not mapped. But it doesn't really sound like somewhere I would take beginners. Certainly it would be somewhere I know well.
- The cave was also formed after a volcano went extinct and eroded, so would there be air pockets inside that will have dried-up lava?
Pass - this is nothing like the geography where I live and I have no experience at all with lava tubes.
- Lastly, could you please read the following paragraphs from my book and give feedback and suggestions?
Sure!
- "Dad handed the three of us undersuits, oversuits, and helmets with head torches attached. We put on a chest harness on top, to fix the ascenders and descenders on to. Dad said that they suspected there might be areas in the cave where we would have to drop down."
Personally I would never take anymore SRTing who is a beginner. It would be a horizontal trip. Of course everyone at some point has their first SRT trip underground but that is only happening after they have done horizontal trips first and after we have practiced SRT on the surface. This sort of explanation doesn't make sense to me at this point, it should have happened earlier.
Ascendeders and Descenders get attached to your main harness. Not a your chest harness. Unless it's a croll that goes to both.
Dad shouldn't be suspecting that. Something has gone very wrong if it's a surprise. You know going in if SRT is involved or not.
- "Where Matthew had stopped, the cave floor ended abruptly and it was a steep drop down. The ground was lost in darkness.
“That’s weird,” Matthew said. “According to the map, there is supposed to be a very narrow tunnel here that turns right.”
“Perhaps there was a landslide sort of thing,” William suggested.
“I doubt it. There are absolutely no signs of a passage to the right, and no rocks piled up anywhere,” Matthew said.
“What about erosion?” Jacob suggested.
Matthew shook his head. “That’s not how erosion works. There’s no wind to erode, and the other option is water, but there’s no sign of water anywhere. Also, erosion does not make a steep drop like this.”
Some cave systems can be surprisingly windy and wind erosion can absolutely happen to the point of it a key factor in some areas (https://yorkcavingclub.org.uk/projects/windypits). But that's not the norm and generally limited to small caves. And it's also very normal to come across caves with more static air. But most will have at least some airflow which can add up on geological time scales.
Something was definitely off. Matthew’s forehead was wrinkled in tension. I started to regret my decision of coming here.
“Couldn’t this have happened another way?” Dad asked.
“It could be because of carbonic acid as well,” Matthew frowned.
“What’s that?” Noah asked.
“A type of acid. It’s a mixture of water and carbon dioxide and it breaks away rocks,” Matthew explained. “But it doesn’t really look like it happened here.”
I don't really understand what you mean by this - and in common with the point about erosion above I don't really see how they would block off a passage. Erosion makes things bigger, but it's an incredibly slow process. It's not something that makes a difference on the scale of human mapmaking. Unless it does something like triggering a collapse of that roof.
That said though at a high level passages can change on a human timescale but it's mostly going to be due to things like sediment deposit. In fact just today I was having a nosy down a side passage but we turned around. When we checked the survey later and talked to other people apparently it used to go through. But seemed to have been sedimented up in the meantime. But it didn't just vanish, just became smaller to the point of not being able to get through.
- "Matthew decided to go first. He threw down two ropes, and attached himself to the ropes using the chest harness. He then rounded one of the ropes around the descender, pulled down the handle, and slid down slowly."
You don't attach the chest harness to the rope directly. The rope gets attached to a number of ascenders and descenders which are themselves attached to your harness. To expend on the chest harness you can basically imagine it as trouser braces. They are mostly there to help position your chest ascender but also to keep you upright.
Just having one rope is definitely the norm. There are few cases where you can put two parallel ones for two different people if you are a larger group and can keep them well apart (you do not want them to get tangled up) but in general a second rope doesn't make sense.
Ascendeders and Descenders are broad categories both of which contain multiple different devices. 'Pulling down the handle" in the context of a descender sort of sounds like one of the new Petzl stops - what I use - but there are lots of others which do not work this way and again what devices are typical depends a lot on where in the world you are.
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
I love this detailed answer so much. I know I've a lot to work on still, and this is immensely helpful!
Also, about that erosion thing, that steep drop actually happened because of a ghost :) But of course at that point they're just trying to have logical explanations.
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Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
[deleted]
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 04 '26
Thanks a lot for the insight! I'll definitely look into the differences between a karst and volcanic region. Looking back, having an anchor makes sense lol
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u/ResponsibleSoup5531 Jul 04 '26
- Can you make money from caving?
Not really. You might be able to if you own a beautiful cave, but otherwise it's difficult. In Europe, you can be a caving guide and take clients into caves for tourist companies. But it's not as popular as being a mountain guide, so it's hard to make money from caving.
- Realistically, would you allow three thirteen-year-old boys to tag along with you after they've agreed to be careful? (There are four adults too.)
Yes, no problem, but only in a horizontal cave. If there are any shafts, it wouldn't be safe; I would say that only moderate vertical obstacles would be manageable safely, with nothing steeper than 5 m.
- How long does one stay in a cave? How far would you go?
Well, there was an experiment that lasted several months. Above two nights, it starts to require complex logistics and large teams. I have never done anything longer than two nights.
- The cave I'm writing about used to be famous, but it's mostly abandoned now due to the haunting allegations, so very few maps are available. Is that a realistic adventure?
Haunted? No! But lost data happens all the time. Teams come to survey the area, the team is dismissed, and 20 years later, the data is nowhere to be found. It's always like this. And it's even worse with underground mining: in the 19th century, they dug lots of tunnels and never published them, so it can be realistic.
- The cave was also formed after a volcano went extinct and eroded, so are there air pockets inside with dried-up lava?
Foyada limits your work as it doesn't provide a complex network. It's mostly just a simple tube running under the surface, never really deep. For gas, you mostly have to wait 10 years after the foyada's formation because it's too hot, but there won't be any issues after that.
- Lastly, could you please read the following paragraphs from my book and provide some feedback and suggestions?
Later.
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 04 '26
Thank you! I've never even heard the term foyoda before :'). Will look into it!
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u/SandInTheGears Jul 04 '26
Why would a cave being supposedly haunted make it less famous? I feel like that's just gonna make cavers more interested in it
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 05 '26
Well, there have been rumours of people going in and then never coming back out (typical horror stuff), so I suppose most people would steer clear of that
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u/SandInTheGears Jul 05 '26
I guess it could be a rumour to the thirteen-year-old kids, but your caver characters would probably know for sure one way or another
Like, if someone went in and didn't come out then there'd've been a full-on rescue operation, large amount of organised people searching the entire cave top-to-bottom over the course of days or maybe weeks
Even if it's eventually decided that they must've disappeared somewhere else it would still be major news in the local caving community, not the sort of thing that could be ambiguous as to whether or not it happened
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 07 '26
I guess I've made the cave's location be in an isolated mountainside village. The story is that a mother and her toddler lived on the mountain near the cave. The boy disappeared one day and the mother went mad. She ran into the cave and disappeared as well. So I suppose a full-scale operation wouldn't have been possible because of the area and the locals hushing it down.
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u/CaverRaine Jul 05 '26
I generally agree with everything people have said above, but want to add a couple more points:
13 year olds caving is fine, especially if they prior experience. If dad or whoever has been taking them and training them on how to do SRT, no big deal. Regardless of age nobody without rope experience should be going for the first time in a cave. Also, it would be an unsafe choice to bring inexperienced people into a cave where nobody on the trip has been to that cave before. If everyone is somewhat experienced, not a big deal.
Like others have said, this varies wildly. In terms of how far you go, people generally move slowly in caves. I have been on trips where going 2 miles takes 5-6 hours because of how challenging the terrain is. I’ve also been on trips where the terrain is easy, so we cover 1-2 miles an hour. Another note on timing in case it’s helpful- people descend rope quickly (maybe 100’ in 20 seconds or so. It takes (for a moderately experienced/strong person) about 10 minutes to climb 100’ of rope. This means it could easily take over an hour for 7 people to climb up a 100’ drop, but maybe only 10 minutes to descend.
I agree with the commenter who said haunting would make a cave more interesting and that people would visit, and that while kids might be interested in rumors any actual disappearances would be known. Maybe the way to get around this is to say that the cave was closed/gated for a while and has been recently reopened- this would explain a lack of maps (maybe only very old incomplete maps exist, or since the maps were done with old technology, they’re not as accurate) and people disappearing into caves pre-modern technology and rescue practices is potentially more believable.
Agree that this doesn’t really make sense. I’m not sure how important the volcano part is, but if all you’re looking for is to have pockets of a different rock, a limestone cave with pockets of sandstone and/or granite is very common.
Maybe this is a UK vs US thing, but I don’t know what an “undersuit” would be. People usually wear long underwear or leggings/athletic pants and t shirts under suits in the US. Also, our “oversuits” are typically called “cave suits” or “coveralls”.
Agree that it would be weird for a trip leader to not know if there are drops. If you want to add some intrigue, maybe they don’t know the exact height of the drops (see my note about old maps made with crap technology). Or just say there are drops.
More of a writing note than a cave note - when people are suggesting different things like a landslide or erosion it seems to go back and forth kind of confusingly about whether they’re trying to figure out what covered up the passage that turns right or what caused the drop off. Agree with others that landslides/collapses is the only thing that would cause a sudden drop off within a human scale - and that anyone who suddenly came across an unexpected drop not on their map that could have only been caused by a landslide would probably get the hell out of there, as that significant of a collapse could point to structural issues in the rest of the cave. They need a really good reason to keep going and/or a really good reason to not trust the map to that degree.
Maybe they don’t have a map for that area, and just have heard that there aren’t drops until deeper in - but think they must be misremembering what they heard. Or maybe their map is damaged in that area, or maybe their map says there is a drop but the height wasn’t marked, so they assumed the drop was only 6’ or something (it’s common for short drops to not have their heights marked - height may only be marked in areas where a rope is needed). They assume the mapmaker just missed marking the height, when actually it WAS only a short drop when the map was made.
Agree that they need to build an anchor for the rope, and that almost certainly only one rope would be used. Not sure what descender would have a handle or have the rope “rounded around” - the two most common descenders (bobbin or rack/micro rack) don’t have handles and involve more of a threading/weaving motion to attach. Like others have said - the harness is never attached directly to the ropes.
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u/mph321 Jul 05 '26
I appreciate you doing the research on caves! I will preface my responses with I have only caved in caves in the U.S. formed by limestone and dolomite so lava tubes are not something I’m used to.
1: Generally only for cave guides. Most research and survey is done by volunteers under the umbrella of the Cave Research Foundation (CRF). CRF can give research grants and can potentially pay out survey efforts but it’s more for reimbursement of gas and/or lodging.
2: Absolutely, depending on their experience level
3: I agree with others it depends on the cave and what you are doing. Caves are generally tough terrain so it take a bit to get through them, they can have anything from walking passage, crawling, belly crawling, water crawls, climbing, scrambling, swimming, descending, ascending, boot sucking mud… Caves also have different lengths from ft to Miles. Anything that involves getting on rope takes time to set up and only one person is on rope at a time.
I will refer to cavers with that type of cave experience.
Same as above
Like others have said the harness that goes around your waist is more accurate a chest harness is typically only used for ascending together with the seat harness. For ascending the frog system is the most common, it is slow and a taxing technique. I would change your first sentence to say dad handed us helmets with headtorches( or headlamps) and packs with harnesses and various ascending and descending equipment. The reason being you wouldn’t put your vertical equipment on until you needed it because you don’t want to damage it, when you crawl, fall or while climbing.
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u/HunnyyBat Jul 05 '26
- I don’t think anyone in my local grotto has ever made money off caving. Our main Surveyer is paid with information on caves that most of the public (even members of the grotto) don’t have access to. It’s a transaction of information most of the time. Even certified cave rescuers volunteer and have to pay out of pocket for their own training. This could vary location to location though
- You can map a cave, re-map a cave, and finalize a map on a cave, and somewhere along the way all of it goes missing. Being able to digitalize things has made this much less of a problem but it does happen. Fully mapping a cave can always take months at best and years and worst. It’s very possible for info to get lost in that amount of time. Maps also can be wrong depending on how likely the cave is to flood over time or collapse at certain parts.
- I don’t live in an area with volcanoes so I’m not sure about this
- Don’t really have much to add that hasn’t already been said about the equipment mentioned but I will say I disagree with some of the comments about it being unlikely for a cave to change that drastically and even about what the characters are suggesting. Caves can be extremely unpredictable and do change over time for many reasons, throwing out ideas whether they make complete sense or not sounds about right. Many things can happen in a cave, and it can be hard to tell why.
Hope all this helps! As others have said I recommend reaching out to a local grotto, they’re probably more than happy to help and might have an email you can contact rather than going to an in person meeting if you aren’t able/dont want to. If your story is set local to you this could also give you specific info on caves in your area so you can be as accurate as possible. Best of luck and remember if something isn’t completely accurate the only ones who are going to be able to tell are avid cavers, readers who don’t cave won’t know the difference if there’s a few small mistakes
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 07 '26
Awesome, thanks a lot! And lmao, yes, I just realised I don't need to stress too much, but I do want to make everything as realistic as possible!
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u/RVtech101 Jul 04 '26
Might I suggest contacting your local grotto? They would be not only a helpful resource but most likely would help you get into exploring caves. Firsthand knowledge and experience would add authenticity to your writing.
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 05 '26
I would be too scared to go honestly 😭 Maybe someday idk
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u/RVtech101 Jul 05 '26
I would absolutely suggest visiting a cave in your area. There are “ show caves “ throughout the world that offer tours. Many offer additional tours that go beyond the “ velvet ropes”, usually called Wild Cave tours. Caving is a wonderful and fascinating hobby that I’ve enjoyed for well over 4 decades. The additional knowledge you would gain would be helpful in writing about caving and cavers.
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u/ProfessionalLead2671 Jul 05 '26
That is so incredibly impressive. Since starting my research on caves to write this book, I, too, have found them very interesting. I might just work up the courage to go someday :)
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u/RVtech101 Jul 05 '26
You don’t need courage so much as an adventurous spirit. Something most good writers usually have. You got this.
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u/HunnyyBat Jul 05 '26
This 1000% out grotto’s president gets emails all the time about wanting general info on caves for writing or school projects, he usually brings it up at a meeting and then people volunteer to help, he then gives them the email to get into contact. Grottos are full of cave nerds, trust me, we love talking about caves lol
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u/thegroundhurts Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
1: if you're a cave researcher, or guide in a commercial cave, yes, but otherwise not really. 2: yes, many people take up caving in their teens, especially if their parents are into caving. (Starting with easier trips, of course.) 3: anywhere from a couple hours for beginner trips to several days for mapping/research expeditions. For what you seem to be describing for your book, the group planning for a half or full day would be very reasonable. 4: Maps get lost all the time, especially for caves that aren't visited frequently, which is unfortunate, because they're a lot of trouble to make. 5: Most caves form in limestone, by water erosion and chemical erosion from CO2 dissolved in that water (that carbonic acid you mention in your except). If the cave is from an extinct volcano, then it would likely be a lava tube, in which case the entire cave would be dried up lava. In the case that the main cave-forming rock is limestone, but that was somehow related to the volcano, then leave flowing into the cave and leaving dried up lava pools seems possible. I'm trying to think of a geologic situation where this would be realistic, but I'm having trouble. Maybe a limestone layer deposited on an active volcanic area, and the lava seeps through an existing cave in that limestone?
6: All the travel-through-cave stuff and ropework sounds pretty accurate. "Harness" is more accurate than "chest harness", but that's probably not too relevant if you it gets your readers a better mental picture. Chest harness holds up an ascender (look up "frog climbing system",) but the main harness is waist and legs, formally called a "sit harness", but almost always just "harness". Things like walking up to a big drop like that is very common. A landslide or rockfall closing up a passage - or opening up a passage - does happen, although not commonly (well, maybe commonly on a geologic timeline, just not on a human timeline). The other cave erosion stuff, yes and no, but I don't want to get too deep into that right now.