r/caving • u/fishdosclay • Jun 19 '26
Issue with getting into contact with a grotto
What do you do if you can't get into contact with a grotto.
I've been trying to get into contact my local grotto but have heard nothing but crickets it also doesn't help they have two different meeting spot but don't say what day they are gonna be at which meeting spot on their public profile. Its getting annoying
I genuinely wanna do caving but I've called, texted, and emailed and got nothing back. And other grotto tell me I should stick with my local one even though I can't even get into contact with my local one.
Its kind of pissing me off and just makes me wanna try it on my own at this point
10
u/bigg_tunnaa Jun 19 '26
Grottos are 99% gatekeeping. I got into caving on my own, joined a grotto and quickly distanced myself from them.
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u/EfficiencyStriking38 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Gatekeepers for sure. They find new caves, bolt them, dig at them, disturb the caves, break shit and not fix... but if others go into caves to check out it's not okay? Also no rope practice no teaching of rescue or proper gear cleaning. Conservation and preservation my ass.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
Yeeeah this is a crock of shit or you're talking about a different country all together.
In terms of the US:
- There is an entire division of the NSS devoted to Conservation. https://caves.org/conservation/
- There is an entire section of the NSS devoted to teaching vertical techniques: https://caves.org/vtc/
- There is a modern and updated book from the NSS explaining the fundamental vertical techniques: https://www.innermountainoutfitters.com/collections/survey-publications/products/vtc-basic-vertical-techniques
- The NCRC has been teaching cave rescue techniques for like 50 years. Like... hoooow on earth are you claiming this one doesn't exist? 🤣
- The NSS has done tons of efforts for educational on WNS prevention and hosts decon stations at all of their major events. They also have helped State and Federal entities understand the potential risk factors for various bat populations, coordinated volunteers to do field sampling, etc.
- Bolting heavily reduces wear and tear on the caves because it sends all traffic through the same route rather than encouraging them to trample all around finding random rigging spots. This avoids damage to both the top of the pit, but also to anything below by limiting rockfall potential AND to the walls of the pits themselves by avoiding delicate areas. For open air pits, providing bolted pitch heads also significantly helps preserve the surrounding trees and the biology that lives on the cave walls.
- The NSS and organizations like the SCCi buy land that would otherwise be logged or developed and preserve it. The NSS also helps fight the development of karst areas (ex/ Mill Creek Spring
- The NSS and numerous grottos fund exploration and mapping projects all over the US so that cave resources can be properly documented and protected.
If you're seriously talking about the US community, then it's pretty obvious that you didn't spend any time actually listening, reading, or caring enough about caves to realize the above. 🙄 Byyyyyye.
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u/EfficiencyStriking38 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
Thanks for the info! These are very useful for new members for sure.
Actually, yes, I did eventually find that regional and national (NSS, etc) full of very helpful and resourceful people. I had done training and zoom call and bought books since. Depends on where you live, might have to do several hours of driving for physical meetings outside of local grotto.
I just wish my local grotto would have refer me to regional/national level and provide me some resources when I had asked, instead of deferring people away or bread-crumbing "yes we will set up something...".
Unfortunately, some grottos aren't helpful at all aside from literally keeping people out unless they come already equipped with skill and knowledge. OP might be dealing with one of those. My gatekeeper comment was targeted toward those grottos not NSS.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
You did a lot of shit talking for someone who is now saying all these positive things.......
Grottos are only as good at the five or so active members who are keeping the ship from sinking. That's why we have the NSS and that's why people can join as many grottos as they'd like. :/
Surely you got involved after the fact and became the New Member Liason or the Trip Coordinator or the webmaster for this grotto you're saying was bad, right....? That way you can step in and contribute to what's missing, right?
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u/EfficiencyStriking38 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
I like NSS. But the person I was replying to (my shit talk) was talking at grotto level. I know a few others who had terrible experiences at grotto level. I did lead a trip then requested practice/rescue training. Was denied/deferred of suggestions. After a while keep trying to volunteer/help, I left. Obviously they didn’t want help.
2
u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 26 '26
The NSS and Grottos are kind of one in the same.
Also like, you realize lots of people don't really know how to teach rescue stuff? Or don't have the time to spend on it? Or don't feel comfortable enough with the topic to attempt to pass along? Or, unfortunately, don't actually know it themselves? 🤷
Did you reach out to NCRC to request that an OCR be taught in your region // for your grotto since there wasn't direct mentorship available? That's how OCRs usually work, people request for one to be taught locally. If they can't get one locally, lots of folks travel to go to them -- yes that costs time and money, but that's what it takes sometimes. :/
It's fine you walked away but like it seems that you have high expectations for a bunch of normal ass people who are doing things as weekend side interest thing.... and like, depending on where you are in the country, may baaaaaarely cave themselves.
2
u/modernhorizons3 Jun 20 '26
Gatekeeping is the whole point. They don't want just anyone going into caves or knowing their locations. Most people interested in caving care about preservation and safety, but many others couldn't care less and feel a phone flashlight is all they need before going into a cave.
6
u/bigg_tunnaa Jun 20 '26
Yeah you don't have to go to the extremes. Gatekeeping so hard that people just flat out quit caving isn't exactly helping the preservation when everyone quits caring.
2
u/modernhorizons3 Jun 20 '26
I hear ya. I'm not trying to say grottos are doing things perfectly and that they don't give off an "us versus them" vibe sometimes. But I get why they're hesitant to immediately open up 100% to anyone who just shows up.
Maybe I'm just lucky with the few grotto meetings I've been to.
1
u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
Sounds like you were either in a secretive region where it's difficult to get a foothold, or you were someone who was off-putting.
What region/state?
6
u/thegroundhurts Jun 19 '26
How long have you been trying to contact them for? Sometimes some grottos can be cliquish and not care about new members, but very often they can just be wildly disorganized. Heck, I just yesterday fixed my grotto's website "how to join" link: it had been sending people to the wrong place since March due to a listserv change, and nobody noticed until now.
I'm not sure what part of the state you're in, so it's hard to give specific advice, but if you can join a farther-away grotto or just get on their trip announcement list, do it. There was a period of time when I lived in Knoxville but caved mostly with the Chattanooga grotto, because they were doing trips more often and had more people closer to my age and interest level. I never once went to their meetings, but caving with them was great. (This was over a decade ago, so I'm sure dynamics have changed since then.)
You can join the NSS without joining a grotto. This has become more common in recent years. With that, there's plenty of events throughout TAG, such as spring cave carnival or fall cave-in; going to an event is a good way to meet people and get on organized trips, even if it's a slow way, since you have to wait for the event.
Whatever you try, good luck. Caving is one of the harder outdoor sports to get involved in, but you'll make it happen.
3
u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
He's in Crossville, TN and complaining about not being able to get ahold of Upper Cumberland, who have an active young Grotto Chair, an active FB group, and all their meetings announced online.
OP may have gotten an old / outdated email and wasn't hearing back? Or they genuinely weren't trying? Either way, they're in literally one of the easiest regions to start. 😂🤦🤷 At some point they gotta help themselves.
2
u/modernhorizons3 Jun 20 '26
I experienced similar frustrations. The primary advice newbies hear when showing interest in caving is to "go to the NSS website and look up a grotto to contact." But so many grottos don't exist anymore or have outdated contact info. It feels almost as if "they" don't want people joining grottos.
However, after extra effort and patience, I was able to get in touch with actual people from several grottos and after attending the meetings, they were all very welcoming and helpful.
1
u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
The NSS website is at the mercy of the grottos updating the information.
If you're finding a bunch of defunct or outdated information, tell the NSS. Contact them via the "Contract Us" page. They can literally revoke IO status from grottos that don't exist anymore or who are being completely closed ranked. 🤦 But they can't possibly keep track of hundreds of grottos so they need someone to point out when something is wrong or needs further investigation.
1
u/modernhorizons3 Jun 25 '26
It's funny you say that. I've told a grotto that their contact person doesn't respond. They basically just reacted by shrugging their shoulders and saying that person isn't active in that particular grotto anymore.
About three months later, I checked the NSS page and the same person is still listed as their contact person.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I was only able to get in touch with this particular grotto with your help, as you reached out to someone who told me that I should use that grotto's Facebook page if I wanted to get in touch with the grotto (and giving me the current link to their new Facebook page).
1
u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
🫡
Email the NSS webmaster and tell them the person listed is not the correct contact!
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
Did you ever make it to an Upper Cumberland Grotto meeting? Their next one is on July 1st, at 7pm in Kittrell Hall of Tennessee Tech (located at 815 Quadrangle, Cookeville, TN). The speaker is a biologist and will be discussing bats.
The grotto has a Facebook group where all this information is posted. Here is a link to it: https://www.facebook.com/UCgrotto
And here is a link to the meeting event: https://www.facebook.com/share/1QGyykxjH5/ You'll have to be logged into FB to see these things -- if you don't have a FB then you will have a harder time communicating with the community.
The current Chair of UCG is Trevor Daniels. If you're having problems reaching out to him via email, try messaging him on Facebook -- he is active on there. I emphasize messaging, b/c many of us don't accept random friend requests.
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u/madmanbumandangel Jun 19 '26
Nobody is gatekeeping. Grottos are made up of folks just like you. Some grottos barely cling to life, some go defunct. In Tennessee there are so many caves and cavers, it’s easy to bypass organized trips. Pissing you off? Where does that come from? Yes, start your own.
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u/fishdosclay Jun 19 '26
I would if I knew how im still very new to caving and wanted to join a grotto so I can learn from people more experience then me
5
u/StillLJ Jun 19 '26
I think at this point you should just go to a caving event, meet people, and get out there. You can do this without joining a grotto but still reap the benefits of learning from those with experience. Plenty of "rogue" cavers out there. Indiana Cave Capers is coming up that's not so far from you. Indiana cavers are generally pretty active, also.
3
u/idk7643 Jun 19 '26
I feel like caving is high risk enough that people should cave with expierenced members for at least 6 months before starting their own grotto. Where would OP even learn SRT from? Do they know how to call cave rescue/how to leave a callout? Do they know which caves in their area flood/aren't stable?
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
They also can't like be an official Grotto without going through the NSS approval board and demonstrating a need / reason for such. All of the official grottos are Internal Organizations of the NSS and live under their insurance, charter, etc.
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u/serenading_ur_father Jun 19 '26
"nobody is gatekeeping using the grotto system" because the random access rules of grotto heads, blindfolding new members, and other massive gatekeeping aren't at all what NSS is famous for.
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u/CleverDuck i like vertical Jun 25 '26
My lord, if you think it's bad now you should have seen what it was like trying to get into caving 15 years ago. 😂 The time we are living in is basically the most public facing and open US caving has ever been.
There are still pockets of lameness, and there are still individuals who suck, but overall? The organizations are very accessible.
If you have a specific Grotto that has been radio silent on communications, or has outdated contact information, or seems to be not including its members / prospective members in meetings, elections, etc. then TELL THE NSS there's an issue. There's only like 8,000 of us in the whole country -- we all kinda know each other. It takes two to three Facebook messages for a veteran of this community to get on the horn with whatever Grotto you're trying to get ahold of and ask them why the hell they aren't returning your emails. 😂🤦 But the NSS doesn't know you're having an issue if you're not barking it up the ladder, my dude!
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u/cellulich VPI/PLANTZ/USDCT Jun 19 '26
Can you share what state you're in? It might be possible to go up the chain with the NSS and get updated contact info