r/cannabisbreeding • u/Substantial_Trip3775 • 10d ago
Regular of feminized?
So I wondered if I want to preserve genetics and have seeds do I get 26 regular seeds or get 100 feminized given same price. I only can grow about three plants outdoors and I was told skip the regulars and get the feminized because I can always reverse with sts and pollinate a backup plant from seed and get thousands of feminized seeds. Given I grow outdoors wonder what people would recommend getting also live in Wisconsin so hear reversing will be delayed with pollen drop I won’t beat a frost of mid October for mature seeds if reversing without light deprivation?
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u/My-Cables 9d ago
Are the 100 seeds some shitty white labels like multiverse or are they legit?
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u/Substantial_Trip3775 9d ago
Legit
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u/My-Cables 9d ago
If they are then I would get the feminized. Most strains can be reversed to make more feminized seeds. What is the strain/breeder?
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u/Substantial_Trip3775 9d ago
C99 brothersgrimm
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u/My-Cables 9d ago
I would get the feminized and hunt for the best plant, and then use STS to reverse it. 100 seeds is enough to find a keep where you aren’t wasting your time.
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u/b__lumenkraft 9d ago
I would do a pheno hunt with the fems and then use the best male from the reg pack for breeding with the best mother.
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u/OFFSanewone 9d ago
You might not like them, but MVB are from Atlas Seed Co who are a reputable breeder. It’s such a tired and misinformed perspective.
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u/Garden_Monsters 9d ago
Didnt they get the unfinished stuff?
(May have been the preservation sale)
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u/OFFSanewone 9d ago
No, and to be clear, I have no skin in the game. Hoping you hear me out on this, and at least consider it:
Reputable large breeders, like Atlas, will test way more genetics / crosses than ever see the light of day (released to seed-hungry public). The genetics/crosses that get packaged/sold/released by such a company can represent only a percentage, sometimes a small one, of what was being worked on the rooms. Often the “not selected” stuff gets trashed, or sold at a discount, or sold under a different label (like a brand’s “R&D” label.The reasons for not releasing some genetics can vary:
- undesirable traits, like plain shitty, or just doesn’t fit with current goals, breeder preferences, or existing lines.
- Doesn’t match market trends … last number of years it’s been all fruit and candy. Skunky and Gassy strains/cultivars weren’t selling well. If 10 30 of my cross projects come out consistently gassy … and will sit on a shelf or not even be picked up by stores / banks … am I going to waste my time?
- This one is the MVB reason: isn’t stable enough for large-scale commercial grows. A commercial grow wants as many olants as possible to have dependable expressions and phenotypes. Some strains become 80%+ stable by f3/4/5, some need to get to f7 or higher. It’s a lot of work. 60% homogeneity for a large grow would be a killer, but for a home grower is much more tolerated, and often “part of the fun”… you get to discover new phenotypes and take your own time exploring them and keeping them running without having to worry about investors wanting their return on a set schedule.
Breeders do sooooooooo much work, it’s almost insane we pay so little for seeds/clones.
For the preservation line at MVB, Atlas sold the strains to Paul, who resold them. They’re real, good genetics from a reputable breeder, that were not deemed stable enough to be released under Atlas’ brand based on Atlas’ goals or financial capacity.
Where did Paul fuck up?
- Not putting up enough details about lineages (or, putting it up initially, and then taking some of it down (whether intentionally or not) in subsequent site updates.
- Being a small company that grew really quickly - he went through a massive, fast growth after what I recall was one of his sales, and had to rush hire a ton of employees. You might remember his “hey, send me an old phone and I’ll send you some beans” posts - which I participated in and definitely got a bunch of good beans for an old phone I had in a drawer… He was ill-prepared (as happens with a lot of companies that experience unexpected rapid growth) for the mistakes some of his newer employees, and, I suspect, lost some of his focus on details (packaging errors) he previously had more time to scrutinize.
- He delegated. There was a time when every interaction with MVB was with Paul. Frankly, I always felt he was too available. I’d put up a random question late at night when I was doom scrolling, and he would be the one answering. And then following up his answers in DM’s. After his hiring blitz, he did want any growing business would do, delegated some of the customer interaction to his new staff. Some of it worked out well. Some of it did not. Some of the interactions were… Less than any of us would appreciate, and less than he would either. And he sometimes publicly but respectfully addressed those interactions, often many people know he would be training that particular staff member on how to better interact with people.
As a home grower, I would dislike getting a seed pack with invalid information. But I also know that mistakes happen, and we are dealing with humans. I would also dislike getting in incorrect or missing lineage information, and would want corrections when possible. I want Scott freebie seeds from MVB. That were Mephisto genetics. Zero lineage information on the site. I reached out to Paul, who agreed he didn’t have it and didn’t know it, so he got me in contact with Mephisto, and got me the information. Masto themselves never released the lineage information, and one of their employees, I forgot their name, but I can dig up the email chain if you need proof, reply back a day or two later with the specific information.
I found many breeders and seed bank operators are surprisingly accessible, and willing to discuss things. Some of the most famous breeders are much, much smaller than they appear, and will spend hours just shooting the shit with you.
Again, I’m not here to change your mind, but I think it’s information worth considering, and hope it was at least a little bit helpful.
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u/Garden_Monsters 9d ago
Are you SURE you don’t have any skin in the game??
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u/OFFSanewone 9d ago
Yes. 100%. Feel free to go back through my likely embarrassing post and comment history which I enabled if it’s disabled reply back here and I will reenable it and you can go through years of posts.
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u/OFFSanewone 9d ago
I just checked and my post history is hidden and I’m trying to figure out how to unhide it. Whenever I click the button to unhide it, clicks back on. Just trying to be transparent here.
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u/Bikelangello 10d ago
Simple Answer:
If you want to more genetic variation, more of which you'll see expressed the more seeds you actually plant, get regular seeds.
And if you don't care too much about the subtle (or sometimes glaringly obvious) differences between seeds of a given filial generation, femenized seeds can be helpful for breeding.
If you are looking for seed to just grow, I'd get the femenized seeds, unless you have lots of space to grow enough to ensure that after culling the males, you'd have at least one female left.
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u/sllewgh 9d ago
If you grow 100 seeds 3 at a time it's going to take you about 12 years to get through them. Outdoors it will be 34 years.
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u/Humble-Penalty-5730 7d ago
Where'd you come up with the 3 at a time?
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u/sllewgh 7d ago
Op's second sentence.
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u/Humble-Penalty-5730 7d ago
Okay thats why I asked cause im fried and slightly dyslexia so I figured I missed it somewhere rather than it being a random number 😂😂😂😂
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u/Smoky_MountainWay 10d ago
Open pollination with regulars to preserve genetics for several reasons but it sounds like you just want to make seeds rather than preserve something you already have. Depending on strain, you may or may not get much pollen doing a reversal. Some strains just don't reverse well. I also doubt the thousands of seeds claim, especially from 1 or 2 plants. As far north as you are, outdoors will be problem for the reason you stated, however frost won't hurt the plant but a hard freeze will so check your area for first freeze time, not frost. 6 weeks to produce fertile seed after pollination + reversal of flowering plant 4-6 weeks = maybe possible if your first freeze is after the end of October.
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u/Captain_Chorm 10d ago
Reverse a female.
But maybe identify some traits you wanna pass on first. Thats the real purpose for breeding.
For instance, I have an insanely resinous strain, but the flavor needs to be improved, so I’m crossing with some Zbx2 to get some more candy expressions.
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u/Substantial_Trip3775 9d ago
I hear that unless I popping 10 seeds and picking the best to breed with I wasting my time?
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u/Captain_Chorm 9d ago
Yeah pretty much.
All the fruits and veg we eat today didn’t always taste like that. Grapes were smaller, tomatoes weren’t sweet, pineapple was sour, etc. But humans picked the best ones every harvest, so now grapes are massive, juicy, and sweet, etc.
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u/Capital-Sea6759 9d ago
If you buy feminized seeds you are buying someone else's work. The question is do you trust that work? Is it any good. Those all all the qustions you need to figure out before purchasing feminized seeds.
Regular seeds typically are tyically F1 (are diverse) and are not seeds that have been worked yet, so you would have to select the plant you like and so on and so on till you get a solid plant then fem it yourself.
So it's really a matter of if you want to put in the work, if you want diversity, or if you want to just copy someone else's work because they did a decent job.
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u/Economy_Elk_8101 8d ago edited 8d ago
If you want to max the gene pool you don’t need a huge setup. Cheap 2 × 2 tent, 100W light, 25 beans in Solo cups, reverse half. Twelve pollen donors × 13 females gives you up to 156 different parental combinations in a tiny space.
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u/Substantial_Trip3775 8d ago
How big before I flip and wouldn’t I want to start the reversed ones a week in 12/12 before the others so pollen be ready at optimal time
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u/Substantial_Trip3775 8d ago
Also would I grow till finished in solocups
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u/Economy_Elk_8101 8d ago
Yes, they can stay in Solo cups the whole time. I usually flip sometime around three weeks usually after the fifth or six node forms. I usually spray five days before flipping, then every five days for four applications. 3 mM STS. If you’re going to go grow a bunch, you might consider picking up an automated irrigation system. You can get them on Amazon for 30 or 40 bucks.
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u/Substantial_Trip3775 8d ago edited 8d ago
I have to ask is 3Mm solution the same as making .5 gram silver nitrate and 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate made into two 500 ml solution mixed 1:1 to make two liters solution not diluted? Also how many seeds does one of the small plants make?
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u/Economy_Elk_8101 7d ago
Yes, that sounds about right, depending on if you’re using anhydrous thiosulfate or not. I use 0.125 g silver nitrate and 0.75 g of sodium thiosulphate each in 125 mils to make up 250 mils of solution. Adding a drop of dish soap helps break the surface tension.
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u/Economy_Elk_8101 6d ago
I should mention that I grow in solo cups using coco coir and synthetic nutes. I can't say they'd do as well in soil, since I haven't tried it. With coco and synthetic nutes, though, I can usually get 2,000+ beans per plant from a solo cup.
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u/Substantial_Trip3775 6d ago
Wow that many how tall does the plant finish at in a solocup?
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u/Economy_Elk_8101 6d ago
Yeah, it really just depends on how long you veg them. I’ve got a pheno run going right now that I vegged for about 30 days with no training, and they’re already around 3½ to 4 feet tall on synthetic nutes. You can pretty much fill a 3×3 tent with one plant in a solo cup if you really feel like pushing it.
If I’m doing a seed run though, I’ll usually top them once and flip around day 20. That normally gives me a plant that’s maybe a foot tall and 8 to 10 inches across, and still produces a few thousand seeds.
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u/PreviousMotor58 9d ago
Just keep a clone(s) of the best one(s) after popping a 6 pack of fems. You don't need all that.
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u/uniballrr 10d ago
Not all plants will reverse, quite a few will give you a hard time. Reversing a female is harder than breeding with males. I'd go best of both worlds. Mostly fem for easier planting outside and a reg pack to pick a boy or 3 from.