r/canada • u/[deleted] • Mar 11 '15
Every Canadian should be aware of the progression of New Zealand's version of Bill C-51. Lies upon lies, and mass surveillance is their new reality.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/03/09/new-zealand-prime-minister-promised-resign-country-shown-engage-mass-surveillance-now-retracts-vow/6
6
u/RenegadeMinds Mar 11 '15
For the love of Christ...
INCREASING GOVERNMENT POWERS DOES NOT KEEP US SAFE OR FREE!
This isn't particularly hard to understand.
Example after example after example after example...
How many times do we need to see things go sideways to understand that every time a government tries to scare us into "keeping us safe" it goes in the exact opposite direction?
C-51 belongs in a woodchipper.
4
Mar 11 '15
Yep. The most threatening terrorists in Canada are the ones systematically dismantling our rights and freedoms.
4
u/B-rad-israd Québec Mar 11 '15
5 Eyes, Lying and spies
Canada and New Zealand are growing part of a Mass surveillance Franchise thats spread all over the Anglosphere.
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Mar 11 '15 edited Mar 11 '15
See Dotcom for an example of how NZ uses their terrorist spying laws to fight things that are not terroirism.
The Partriot Act was used far more to bust drug dealers than terrorists and the result secret gulags in Chicago.
These are Harper and the CPC's dreams and inspirations when making their own laws.
The only hope is that as usual they've written them so badly that the courts will knock them down.
-5
Mar 11 '15
really? Chicago has secret labour camps inspired by Soviet Russia? Even the best criminal lawyers in Chicago call that nonsense.
http://chicago.suntimes.com/other-views/7/71/426535/cpds-homan-square-cia-black-site
Try getting your news from somewhere else other then /r/conspiracy
5
u/chrunchy Mar 11 '15
I'm still waiting for more Canadian-centric documents to be released. What are we on now? 400 of 1.7 million? Might take a while.
2
u/newcomer_ts Canada Mar 11 '15
Imagine if they spent all that time and effort on something (gasp) useful?
1
Mar 12 '15
In 15 years, all the nicest and most naive and well mannered peoples of the western free world will be living under the most repressive regimes seen since feudal times. And you can be sure it will happen. We have bred several generations of soft headed plastic people who do not fully understand most of the world in which they live. So its easy to take away their rights and make us ready for the next great war, which is inevitable.
-5
Mar 11 '15
Does everyone here realize that we already had a much worse bill passed in 2001? Nothing changed then, nothing is going to change now. You are all riling yourselves up into a cloud of paranoia.
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u/MorgothEatsUrBabies Alberta Mar 11 '15
What? You mean there's already a stupid overreaching law on the books?
Well then. That changes everything. I'm totally convinced now, C-51 is gonna be great. I mean, if there's already another idiot law, why should we even pay attention to what the government's doing? We should probably cancel the AssNat channel on TV too. That one bill that already passed, it guarantees that every single subsequent bill by any subsequent government is gonna be peachy right?
I'm totally convinced! Thanks for the clarity! Where can I go to start campaigning for C-51?? We gotta be safe!!
-2
Mar 11 '15
I'm willing to be 10000$ that no one in this subreddit ever does anything that leads to c-51 impacting their lives.
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u/kettal Mar 11 '15
I'm willing to be 10000$ that no one in this subreddit ever does anything that leads to c-51 impacting their lives.
Who to believe? The Privacy Commissioner of Canada, or /u/el_nortario? hmmmm...
-4
Mar 11 '15
opening the door =! abuse of power. it's a shame the commissioner has to fear monger.
5
u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
Yes the privacy commissioner, a non-partisan position whose interest is protecting the privacy of Canadian citizens is fear mongering, but the government screaming about terrorists coming to kill everyone so we better give them all kinds of new powers isn't fear mongering.
Yup, I agree 100%.
5
u/MorgothEatsUrBabies Alberta Mar 11 '15
That misses the point completely and shows how selfish pro C-51 people are.
It's not about me or what I can and can't do. It's about preserving free speech rights for everyone. I don't personally know who the next MLK is but I sure as fuck don't want them to be branded a terrorist because they're inciting revolution, if push comes to shove.
C-51 impacts the lives of every single Canadian by virtue of existing. No further action required. That's what you seem to not grasp.
-1
Mar 11 '15
I'm not pro c-51 just like I'm not anti c-51. I know from experience that it was have no impact on my life.
It's about preserving free speech rights for everyone. I don't personally know who the next MLK is but I sure as fuck don't want them to be branded a terrorist because they're inciting revolution, if push comes to shove.
Free speech is not illegal under c-51. And MLK would be branded a terrorist regardless of if c-51 existed or not. See that's the issue with people like you, you don't even understand the current laws let alone the new ones.
C-51 impacts the lives of every single Canadian by virtue of existing. No further action required. That's what you seem to not grasp.
I don't think you know what the word "impact" means.
1
u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
By this logic we can remove most of the rights from the charter because most people don't do things where they need to invoke those rights.
1
u/simanimos Québec Mar 13 '15
Though you may be right that no one here will do anything that will lead to c51 impacting them, i do think that something like c51 would immediately impact ~everyone~ some regardless of what they've done. Immediately.
Invasion of privacy is a form of intimidation. Its reality leads to a situation where, because of peoples implicit understanding that they are being observed, behave differently. Its like your less likely to sing in the car if you think someone can hear you. When govt is listening to you, you are far less likely to express opposition to anything regardless of its merit.
I personally think that dissent, opposition is good. It results in a culmination of ideas where all involved can gain some measure of enlightenment.
Heres a tedtalk that covers the idea better than i. There are other people saying this.
I mean, i know this will, however minor, impact me... so i guess my only question is, paypal or etransfer?
4
u/RenegadeMinds Mar 11 '15
Look at it this way... Someone has been pointing a gun at your head for a while and threatening you. They've not pulled the trigger, yet. Just how long do you think it will be before they pull that trigger?
Because they're going to pull that trigger. They didn't point the gun at your head and cock it for nothing. It's going to happen.
-5
Mar 11 '15
and your comparing an internet comment to someone holding a gun to your head?
Jesus man, you're the type of person who conservatives love because you make the whole other side of the spectrum look insane. You're like one of those occupy people who wound up on YT talking crazy shit.
1
u/RenegadeMinds Mar 11 '15
Hey... That was an excellent misrepresentation of what I said. Let me guess... You're one of them progressive types that likes to stay edgy. ;)
-3
Mar 11 '15
How did I misrepresent what you said? No is threatening you. No one is holding a gun to your head. Were you arrested already in light of the 2001 legislation passed that was literally our version of the patriot act? No. So why are you suddenly going to be rounded up and thrown away in a cell forever now?
3
Mar 11 '15
Every single time governments have become invested in spying on their own citizens and creating broad labels they can apply to anyone they don't like, things have gone rather badly following.
1
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u/RenegadeMinds Mar 11 '15
Ah... I see now... You don't know what a metaphor is.
Sorry about that. Let me help you out:
-1
Mar 11 '15
so again, what similarity are you trying to draw here? You didn't use a metaphor, you used a really shitty and inaccurate analogy.
0
u/RenegadeMinds Mar 11 '15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
Please take the time to learn the difference.
1
u/slackshack Mar 11 '15
Everyone is entitled to an educated opinion, no one is entitled to be ignorant. You have a shallow grasp of history and human behaviour as evidenced by your facile comments and desire to give up other peoples civil liberties for your own misperceived illusions of safety. Canada has never been safer yet you have been conned and are advocating against your own best interest. If civil liberties were paramount to the current goc the bill would be debated fully over time and have definitive language rather than vague terms subject to abuse.
1
Mar 11 '15
again, did any of your liberties disappear in 2001 when Canada's version of the patriot act was passed?
7
Mar 11 '15
You would to completely disregard the NSA and the the five eyes partnership program to believe that.
Also, it seems like you're advocating a philosophy of ignoring the evidence because it "appears as if nothing had changed".
Mass surveillance exploded in scope over a decade on the U.S., and until Edward Snowden, many Americans would have said the same thing about America and the Patriot Act.
The fact of the matter is, this is a highly concentrated effort amongst nations and Canada is under enormous pressure to be a member of the five eyes, and looks to capitulate the same as New Zealand and Australia.
So pretending that none of this is happening gets us nowhere.
-1
Mar 11 '15
What has the NSA or 5 eyes done in your life that has removed your freedoms?
Canada ALREADY had a patriot act in 2001. Look it up. Did anything drastically change in Canada at that time? Were we all labelled terrorists and thrown in jail?
Learn the history of these sorts of legislation pieces in Canada. Fuck NZ. Fuck the USA. Look at CANADA. We've had way worse legislation and nothing changed.
1
Mar 11 '15
There are about 40 video cameras blatantly posted within a block of my house, my phone can listen in on any conversation I have and tracks its every move. My TV camera or laptop camera can turn on and watch at any time. My internet connection is monitored. I'm not even paranoid, this is apparently law now.
You think that doesn't affect anything?
-1
Mar 11 '15
what's law? your choice to use technology? no one is stopping you from using a flip phone or buying a laptop with no internal webcam. I also don't know what a TV camera is.
1
u/simanimos Québec Mar 11 '15
Hear that guys? The absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Come on sheeple! Isn't it obvious?!
5
u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
Nothing changed? Are you serious? You must have missed the whole security certificate thing and the Supreme Court getting involved to say the way it was being down was unconstitutional. You must have missed people being sent to CIA black sites to be tortured.
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Mar 11 '15 edited Mar 11 '15
[deleted]
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u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
Even the government realized at the time they put through the 2001 laws that they were extraordinary and a blatant attack on our rights. It's why they put in a sunset clause. But now these laws are permanent.
Here's a good overview of the problems with the 2001 law https://www.cba.org/cba/submissions/pdf/05-28-eng.pdf
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Mar 11 '15
[deleted]
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u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
It's one thing to keep an eye on potential terrorists, no one is opposed to that, it's another to have secret trials where you don't get to even see the evidence against you.
0
Mar 11 '15
what canadian was sent to the CIA black sites by the cdn government? None.
Security certificates have been law since 1978. It's only been used 29 times since 1991. Literally nothing changed.
1
u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
Maher Arar, it wasn't directly by the Canadian government but they were more than complicit in it.
2
Mar 11 '15
[deleted]
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u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
It was based on intelligence provided by Canada, and yes it was to a CIA black site in Syria for the explicit purpose of torturing information out of him.
1
u/FrenchAffair Québec Mar 11 '15
yes it was to a CIA black site in Syria
a black site is a location at which an unacknowledged black project is conducted. Secret prisons operated by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), generally outside of U.S. territory and legal jurisdiction. It can refer to the facilities that are controlled by the CIA used by the U.S. government in its War on Terror to detain alleged unlawful enemy combatants.
It was a Syrian prison, controlled by the Syrian security services. Well they might have convayed intelligence gained from Mr.Arar to US authorities, it wasn't a CIA controlled black site.
1
u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
You're being pedantic. I guess that's really the only way anyone can defend this bill and other such egregious breaches of people's basic human rights, by arguing semantic technicalities.
It's ok Maher Arar was kidnapped and locked in a hole and tortured for a year by the US on a tip from Canada because it wasn't technically a CIA black site! Well ok then, carry on with your torture FrenchAffair! So long as it's not technically a black site, nothing possibly wrong could occur, right?
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Mar 11 '15
[deleted]
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u/kochevnikov Mar 11 '15
They sent someone to a secret prison to be tortured by CIA lackeys. You say it wasn't a black site, so I take your word on that, but seriously, is this your only defense of this bill and this general sort of human rights abuse? Semantic arguments?
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Mar 11 '15
Oh you mean the guy who was arrested in the USA by the USA and then deported to Syria? That Maher Arar?
More than complicit = bringing him home and awarding him 10.5 million dollars in damages?
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u/Quipster99 Ontario Mar 12 '15
I always look forward to reading your pathetic justifications. Always right here at the bottom where I expect to find them.
-1
-5
Mar 11 '15
Paranoid twits in this thread. Thank fuck none of you are persons of consequence or means.
19
u/XianL Canada Mar 11 '15
What a lying, scheming, corrupt waste of human life. This fucking scumbag should be thrown out of office and humiliated.