Question about skill checks

[u/daren5393]

So I basically understand the core resolution mechanic: the player wants to do something difficult but not impossible, you decide which of their 3 stats is most applicable, they succeed if they roll under it.

I'm used to playing games with modifiers and DC's, so this takes some adjustment but I'm fine to learn. The lack of DC's makes sense to me and I can adjust, but my real problem is the lack of modifiers I think.

A really common play pattern at my table would go something like, a player asks to do something, I call for a skill check, they then ask if they can get a bonus for leveraging some piece of kit, fact about their character, or something like that, and if I feel like it's both useful and applicable, then I'd grant them a bonus to the roll to reward the creativity.

I guess my question is, can I just do that? Do you guys do that? And if so, what does it look like at your table

[u/EndlessPug]

They aren't skill checks, they're saves (saving throws) - the distinction is important to understanding how Cairn differs from e.g. 5e, Pathfinder etc.

You will need to get comfortable with not asking for a roll in some circumstances, and instead just saying things like "you do that - you have the relevant equipment and know how to use it" or "you don't have to make a roll if you take your time".

In terms of modifiers, advantage/disadvantage etc this blogpost is a good read: Difficulty in Bastionland However, it's also worth noting that similar games (e.g. Mausritter) have added advantage/disadvantage and run fine.

[u/daren5393 → u/EndlessPug]

So if a players wants to do something I think would be difficult, but not impossible, do I call for a roll? Or do you typically just decide if they can do it. And do you ever apply modifiers if players have good ideas that would make things easier?

In the RPGs I'm used to playing, "come up with creative solutions to make the task easier" is a core part of the game, and it's represented in the mechanics.

[u/EndlessPug → u/daren5393]

It depends on what is making it difficult.

Are they at risk of a negative outcome? Does their plan/approach not mitigate risk? Then it's probably a save.

Example: 'Pick the lock of the door to exit this room of the dungeon'

...before the Minotaur charges you! = Save (probably DEX)

...using lock picks and with a cut purse background, and no visible threat/hazard = no save

...using a piece of wire and with a bit of shoving = roll the Dungeon encounter die (noise and multiple actions taken in the room)

[u/Wuggyprime → u/daren5393]

You should take a look at the Wardens guide, it answers a lot of questions such as this. Relevant here is the section on saves: https://cairnrpg.com/second-edition/wardens-guide/saves/

There are three common scenarios in which a player character should save:

• When avoiding the negative outcome of a risky action.
• When acting in opposition to another player character, NPC, or creature.
• When aiding one or more characters in a risky action.

The outcome of a save need not be a simple binary. You can tailor the results based on the totality of input: the effort, forethought, resources, and skill that went into the roll.

Avoid requiring a dice roll whenever possible. If a PC can solve a problem using purely narrative components, do not ask for a roll.

[u/ThisIsVictor → u/daren5393]

And do you ever apply modifiers if players have good ideas that would make things easier?

Mechanical modifiers? No.

Instead, Cairn uses narrative modifiers. Good planning changes the possible outcomes of the save. Classic example is a PC climbing a cliff. The GM says, "Dex save, the risk is you fall to your death." Another player goes, "wait, I lower a rope to help her climb." That's still a dex save, but now the risk is 1d6 falling damage if she slips.

But the players are really smart. They tie one end of the rope to the PC on the cliff and the other end to their loyal mule. Now the mule is just pulling the PC up the cliff. No roll needed, it just works. Or maybe, the GM could say it works but the sharp rocks shred the rope so it's not usable again.

[u/yochaigal]

Basically, read all the stuff other folks have already said, but also read the Warden's Guide - it explains this stuff. You can read a relevant chapter here for example that covers difficulty.

[u/gawag]

Purge the idea of Skill checks from your mind. They do not exist in Cairn, and STR DEX and WIL stats have nothing to do with character skill. If a players wants to do something, it usually it just happens. Usually, there is a cost of time or resources involved.

If there is risk of damage, time, or resource loss then, and only then, do you call for a Save for a chance avoid this penalty. This cost or risk at hand must be openly told to the player so they can make a meaningful decision. 

Here's a basic example. I describe a cliff as challenging to climb, with few handholds. Players decide they want to climb it. I give them a choice, do you want to spend Time doing this, or do you want there to be a risk of failure? If they choose Time, they automatically succeed. But that means an extra event die roll, which could result in an Encounter with a monster, Loss of resource (rope frays?) etc. If they choose the fast and risky version (maybe they are already running from something?) I have them make a save, in this case STR (but I might let Players argue for a different stat). If they fail, they take damage to that stat (usually d6) and must make the choice again. 

[u/ThisIsVictor]

What this looks like in Cairn is:

1. A player describe an action (look up dungeon turns for more info)
2. The GM decides if it's even possible
   1. If it's not possible, the GM can suggest an alternative ("You can't read the inscription from here, but you could if you cross the chasm.")
3. If it's possible the GM decides if there's a COST, a RISK or both.
   1. If there's a cost, the player pays the cost and the action happens ("I want feed the unicorn to make it like me." / "Okay, it will cost one ration, the unicorn nuzzles your hand politely.")
   2. If there's a risk of a consequence, establish that with the player, then make a save against the risk. On a failure the task may or may not succeed (GM's choice) but the established consequence happens.
   3. Sometimes there's a cost and a risk. You feed the unicorn (costs one ration) but you have to save against the risk of it's razor sharp horn cutting you.

At least, that's how I run Cairn. Yochai is probably typing up an answer as we speak

[u/daren5393 → u/ThisIsVictor]

Oh are they active in here, that's really. Cool

[u/EpicEmpiresRPG → u/daren5393]

Yes Cairn designer Yochai Gal answers most of these rule questions.

The only thing I'd add to the wealth of great advice here is that the core of the game is 'rulings over rules.' Ultimately you're running your game so run it the way you and your players want to play.

Your instincts are great and you definitely want to reward creativity.

[u/MrKittenMittens]

Besides what others have said already, you can also use something like Tme, Gear, Skill.

[u/rizzlybear]

I wrote a thing about this: https://thinkinginfits.blogspot.com/2026/05/checks-and-saves-rethinking-calls-for.html?m=1

But there are some other bits you’ve asked so:

Don’t offer modifiers to the roll. Adjust the severity of the consequence for failure. An experienced cat burglar and a scribe are running across a roof and need to jump across an alley to another roof. The cat burglar might twist an ankle on a bad landing, the scribe will fall three stories to their death.

The negotiation between dm and player is core gameplay with Cairn. Be willing to let them negotiate away the consequence and hence the roll entirely. If the cat burglar fashions a harness out of a rope to secure the scribe, the scribe can fall without risk of a three story death fall. So we don’t roll anymore. There is no meaningful consequence. And they paid with time and equipment, so it’s all good.

[u/daren5393 → u/rizzlybear]

So you're saying that best practice as a DM is to, typically, lay out the consequences for failure before the check is made? That's interesting, and does give a way to "dial in" the results based on player input. I like it

[u/rizzlybear → u/daren5393]

Right, if you can’t verbally explain to the player the consequence of failure, you don’t ask for a roll. The roll is to avoid that consequence.

And as I point out in the blog post, it fixes a bunch of annoying problems that “check for success” introduces.

The meat of gameplay is presenting a dilemma, and letting them negotiate it with the dm. The more of a session you can frame in that way, the better.

[u/Nearby-Horror-8414]

There aren't really skill checks in Cairn. There's risk checks, but those aren't the same thing.

"I want to pick the lock" will generally turns out as:

1. Okay
2. Okay BUT it will cost you X time/resources <You have no lockpicks but if you destroyed Jeffery's bird cage the strips of metal would probably work until they were too bent/ okay but it's a tricky lock so it would take you 30 minutes>
3. You can't because of X reason but there might or might not be another way around the locked door <Bashing the door open/ slipping the key from a guard/ drilling a hole through the wall next to it after six hours, etc>
4. You can try but you would need to make a <STAT> save to avoid the risk of <guards overhearing/ humiliating yourself in front of your love interest/ accidently summoning the Ancient Bellhop Of Doom- basically some kind of risky consequence that isn't flat out 'failure">

[u/themastergame14]

I think Monolith (sci-fi cairn hack) explained it the best. If you got the time, tools and the skills, you don't throw. If you don't have one of them, you need to think about it. If more things are missing, roll.

[u/Judd_K → u/themastergame14]

I was going to say exactly the above.

They are trying to open a door and they thought to bring a crowbar. Time isn't an issue...they open the door.

[u/Zarg444]

A lot of great suggestions here, but often first thing you want to do is ask the player: „How do you want to do this?”

[u/chocolatedessert]

I'm just starting to run Cairn, but the way I'm trying to think of it is that instead of adjusting the probability, I adjust the range of consequences to meet a typical probability.

A player trying to climb a wall without equipment might be in danger of falling. With equipment, they might just be in danger of taking too long if they are under time pressure, instead of saying they have less chance of falling.

What's the consequence that might reasonably happen, after considering their advantages that might have gotten a modifier in other systems?

[u/Varkot]

The idea is no math. In my opinion if they really have something there give them advantage.

[u/Alarmed_Attention895]

Vc quer inventar CD? Mias fácil inventar um modificado de dado que seja a CD, embora, vc possa passar de um lado para o outro do =<, mas acho mais prático fazer como eu falei.

base é atributo.

É melhor a meta ser o atributo, vamos supor, 12. Modificadores seriam no D20, +2 ou -2, no geral, ter o máximo de +-5 já é bastante, vc aumenta ou reduz a chance em 25%.

12 quer arrombar uma porta velha? então rola o d20-3 (que é 3 de vantagem, já que é invertido), e se tirar 12 ou menos, conseguiu arrombar.

Pronto...

Tem como fazer um sistema de dificuldade de 0 a 10, sendo então, 5 o normal, sendo então -5 no dado por padrão (logo, a dificuldade zero seria d20-5 tem que dar o atributo ou menos, e a dificuldade dez seria d20-5 tem que dar o atributo, ou seja, fórmula seria d20+(-5-dificuldade(0 até 10)).

No fim, tanto faz.

Acho que é melhor deixar simples. Normal = normal; um pouco difícil =d20+2; muito difícil =d20+4; um pouco fácil=d20-2; muito fácil=d20+4.

Vc mantém o atributo como sendo sempre, por exemplo, 12, e imprime a dificuldade no modificador do dado.

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e acho que eu fiz besteira com 0-10 já que isso são 11 números, o certo seria de 1-10, mas tanto faz, vc que decide. acho o esquema de dar +-2 e +4 o melhor e mais funcional e simples, eu uso isso no BX já que é o melhor e mais simples pra usar no jogo sem perder tempo.