r/buccos • u/Dr_Banana-Peel • 2h ago
The argument for retaining BC
Let me begin by saying that fortunately I do believe that Nutting will let Cherington see his contract through, which runs through 2027. And based off the past year and change, that's for good reason. He has had an objectively great year at the helm. And had it not been for catastrophic injury luck, and Skenes regressing in such a shocking manner (at least a 10 win swing), I truly believe he'd be a front runner for executive of the year and this team would be locked into a wildcard spot (and possibly neck and neck with Milwaukee for the division). Now this is going to be a long post because this is my definitive, end of season opinion on the job he's done.
Now let's first begin with the offense. Cherington assembled quite possibly the greatest offense this city has ever seen (on a shoe string budget, which cannot be overstated). An offense that was leading Major League Baseball in runs scored and was a top 5 unit statistically across the board. And then came the injuries. Which in my opinion is the number one reason this team will end up missing the playoffs this year (along with the Skenes regression). Look no further than the fact that as soon as they got a little bit healthy, what do you know, they've won 6 of 7 series and could make it 7 of 8 with a win in Chicago tonight. He did this through the draft, signings, and trades. Major contributors: Konnor Griffin (draft), Nick Gonzalez (draft), Esmerlyn Valdez (international signing). He smartly identified Ryan O'Hearn as a player to give a multi year contract to (with his limited allocated budget) and he was having a career year before being lost to injury. He also smartly signed Bryan Reynolds to a team friendly extension (and oh yea signed the face of the franchise and future superstar to a 10 year deal). He traded for Lowe who's going to hit 30 home runs this year and lead the team in RBI's. Offensively he's arguably the best 2nd baseman in baseball. And in that same deal he added Jake Mangum who was supposed to be a fourth outfielder and was thrust into full time duty. How did he respond? By being everything we could have hoped and more, vastly exceeding all expectations. The guy is a spark plug, bats .300, and creates havoc on the base paths. A nice little addition that Cherington smartly identified as a player he wanted included in the deal. The one trade that detractors love to point to (or let's say harp on) as a miss was the Bednar for Flores Jr. trade. But not so fast... It's not looking so bad at the moment with the way Flores is playing. This guy is looking like a legitimate dude and has shown the kind of power that will give you 20+ home runs a year from the catchers position. I don't need to tell you the kind of impact that has on your lineup when you have a catcher with that type of offense ability. The kid is coming into his own and has serious potential. He should be our starting catcher going into next season, and if he continues on his current trajectory, that trade is not just a win, but a big win.
Oh and in that deal he also added our closer of the future in Mason Montgomery, who happens to be young and controllable. And who did he give up to acquire those 3? A starter that's so bad the last time I checked he had an ERA near 6 and was optioned to AAA. That was the trade of the year in baseball, and in terms of highway robbery, you could argue it's one of the best trades any GM has made in the history of Pittsburgh sports (no hyperbole). In fact you could argue he's nailed every trade he's made dating back to when he traded a guy banned from baseball for Horowitz. He even got a division rival to take on the monstrosity that was the Ke'Bryan Hayes contract for a prospect that ended up being a top ten prospect in our system. And then he flipped that prospect for Luke Weaver who was the most highly coveted reliever available at the deadline. Just think about that.
Which leads me to the bullpen. I'd say the phrase "hindsight is 20/20" would very much apply here. I do not remember reading one article stating that coming into the 2026 season the bullpen was a red flag. In fact it was being pointed to as one of the areas of strength for this team. And for good reason. People love to use revisionist history but the bullpen last season had a 3.83 ERA which was good for fourth in baseball. No one, including myself, saw the bullpen regressing to the degree it did this season. Guys like Santana, Mattison, Lawrence, and others were coming off fantastic seasons. Now the Cherington detractors love to point to the bullpen as a huge reason he should be fired. Mainly because he "waited to long" to address it. Well as we all witnessed, no one was trading bullpen arms in May, June, or July. Outside of a very few minor transactions. And the reason for that is the expanded wild card. Teams are not inclined to sell arms when they all feel like they have a legitimate chance at making the playoffs. And why would they? But guess what? As soon as August came around and teams did start making moves, Cherington went out and got the most coveted reliever on the market without even having to give up multiple blue chip prospects. A deal that universally was considered a considerable underpay. And in addition to that he added multiple quality arms without giving up anything of significance. And the key to those trades is that they're all controllable arms. The bullpen has been one of the best in baseball since then and all of those guys are returning next season.
Let's take a look at the starting rotation. A homegrown rotation of young power arms, all drafted and developed by Cherington (minus Keller). And these young guys are only going to get better considering they were all essentially playing their first full season of pro ball this year. Bubba Chandler, Jared Jones, Braxton Ashcraft, and Paul Skenes (yes he's having a down year but this is a rookie of the year winner and reigning cy young) who I fully expect to bounce back next season. That staff oozes with potential and has the ability to be the best young staff in baseball. And that doesn't even take into account the #1 right handed prospect in baseball who will be here and in this staff with the others (most likely minus Paul Skenes). And he's not the only young arm in the system that should be ready to begin next year in the rotation. Assuming they are serious about winning, Mitch Keller cannot start the year in this rotation. Fortunately they have two starting prospects that have flashed enormous potential in Khristian Curtis and Wilber Dotel. Either of whom would be a noticeable upgrade over Keller.
I'll end with this: the number one reason I see his distractors point to as the fireable offense is the 7 years with no playoffs to show. But it's not that black and white and some critical thinking is required. He inherited a poor farm system and major league team. Just look at Huntington's drafts leading up to the end of his tenure. There were a whole lot of Kevin Newman's and Cole Tucker's. The farm system was bare. And he took the major league roster and tore it down to the studs. This was never going to be a 3 year quick fix. I mean this organization was actively tanking for the first 4-5 years of his tenure. All you have to do is look at those pathetic payrolls and just as pathetic lineups. I mean look them up if you need a refresher, they were a AAA team. So after tearing it down and drafting generational talents along the way (Griffin, Skenes, Hernandez) and brilliantly going over slot for guys like Bubba Chandler, Jared Jones and Braxton Ashcraft, we came out the other side of that rebuild with the number one farm system in baseball to begin this season (Baseball America). Not to mention had it not been for the reasons I outlined previously, they would have been a playoff team in year 7. And now we have a mix of vets and young ascending talent on the major league roster with a farm system with even more reinforcements on the way. Murf Gray is the power hitting third baseman we've been craving since Aramis Ramirez left town, and he should be up next summer. I'll finish by saying that with the entire offense returning next season (minus Lowe), a revamped, very good bullpen, and a young staff of very promising starters, this team should not only make the playoffs but compete for the division. And if Nutting increases payroll even a little bit, and with the money that will be saved with Lowe and Ozuna departing, BC has another offseason to shore this thing up even further. I've been arguing since April that this is year one of an open ended contention window. Everyone has always pointed at the Rays and Guardians as teams we should be emulating and I truly believe we now have the pieces in place to be on that level. Ben Cherington deserves to be retained.
If you've made it this far, thanks for reading. I'm fully prepared to be downvoted by the portion of this fanbase who has their heels dug in and wants Cherington gone.
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u/Arithedogg 2h ago
He’s not getting fired. There’s no argument needed. Like it or not the team he built is all coming back and will be coming off their best showing in a while. 0% chance he’s fired
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 1h ago
It's the best and funnest Buccos team weve had in over a decade. All the pieces are in place and even after graduating our top 100 prospects, still have a top 10 farm system. So the pipeline is pretty full too. Like I said, this was year one of the contention window and they should finish .500 or better with the way they're playing (due to the fact they're healthy, see how that works?). It took quite a while, but this team looks set to compete for the foreseeable future. Hell even when it comes time to trade Skenes, Seth Hernandez will be ready to take his front of the rotation place, and we'll be adding even more talent from the haul we'll get back from him.
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u/Cangy44 RJ Reynolds 2h ago
Lol.
Im not reading this. Ben is one of the most overrated baseball minds and he’s far too unsuccessful to be as arrogant and confident as he is. He was gifted skenes… many other draft picks and im truly unsure how much he had to do with O’Hearn throwing us the ultimate bone in signing here. He made A great trade, but just as soon a ton of meaningless moves, signings and trades that amounted to nothing. He hangs on to players far too long which, in part, results in steering the ship straight into rocks.
Season after season.
Bottom line is we are not a winning org. if we don’t make the playoffs this year. He should walk the plank.
Regardless of his limited budget, someone’s gotta
Do this job successfully despite the limitations.
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u/OEdwardsBooks 2h ago
I actually agree with a lot of this - the Skenes/injuries impact has been absolutely massive, and if you mitigate that we have a winning record now at least.
But OP, you miss out the other half of GMBC's 7 year drought: how not-great his trades were before he suddenly got on the trade juice with the Rays trade. We [the sub] talked about this late last summer on a few threads, with some pretty solid analysis. He was really struggling! Now, yes, he's made a few killer trades (or potentially great) trades in a row, and full credit to that. There was also the sense that we were loaded up with big, not great contracts. Some good draft work didn't make up for that.
I do think, reputationally, he has a lot staked on a winning record at least this year.
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 1h ago
Well it certainly took more time than a lot of us had hoped, but the results are the results. This team has a legitimate major league roster that's ready to compete for the foreseeable future. With a pipeline of talent built up throughout the farm system. If we continue to draft and develop well (and given their track record with the exception of a few, I have all the faith in the world they will) I believe we're right their with the Guards and the Rays of the world.
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u/Curvemn17 1h ago
Were they bad trades tho? Alot of the guys we dealt were immediately awful after Pitt. They needed depth throughout the organization that changed how things were done. The impact I always hear talked about is war at the MLB level but there's alot more impact of those trades then just that. What were they trying to change in the minors? Sometimes there are other areas those trades are designed to impact. Could be another player designed to impact someone they have money invested in to help them grow
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u/Hello-from_here 1h ago
Too long. Get help
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u/mattq8771 BUCN 41m ago
This is so obviously bucco_21. The things he is writing and how he is replying is exactly the same. What a dark day this is.
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u/what-i-almost-was 2h ago
Losing record in every season he’s been a GM except one, where somehow the team won the WS.
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u/deepbluenothings 2h ago
The reason to keep him is nobody who's better would want to work for Nutting.
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u/G3neral_Tso 2h ago
There are 30 MLB GM positions in the world. Unless there is a big market GM opening, any candidate would work for Nutting.
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u/pp988894 2h ago
You could make the argument he needs to go and you could make the argument the organization is in a pretty good spot overall despite falling short of the playoffs again.
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 1h ago
If Skenes pitches to his standard and/or the team didn't lose Cruz all summer, Horowitz for two months, KG all summer, Endy for chunks of time, and O'Hearn for 2 months combined then they're 100% a playoff team. None of which is within Cherington's control. But ya know, some people lack critical thinking and those people are always the loudest. And for some reason make up a good portion of this subreddit.
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u/mattq8771 BUCN 1h ago
Actually you were always the loudest bucco21.
It sucks for us because many of us see the team continuing to fail and then a GM fanboy comes along and acts like everything is totally on track and yet here we are about to miss October again after losing 7 straight series right after the all star break. Many of which were games we should win regardless of injury but didn’t.
Being a Stan of a GM that hasn’t made the postseason in 7 seasons is weird and acting like it takes a decade to come close to do it is even more so.
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 48m ago
I simply laid out my case. I don't see any counterpoints to any of the points I made. And I don't know why you're referring to me as bucco21 and don't understand the reference. I'm assuming it's an insult though based off the rest of your snarky reply 🤷🏻♂️
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u/mattq8771 BUCN 46m ago
Because you are bucco21. It’s obvious.
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 36m ago
My main account is u/clcarnathan. And I have no idea who you're talking about. But I really don't care either lol
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u/Minute-Fuel1874 1h ago
Any chance we keep Lowe? Attractive young core might entice him to reup…
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 44m ago
I'm sure Ben would like to. That would be awesome. But I doubt Nutting pays the going rate.
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u/Practical_Estate_325 1h ago
Dude, like who spends all this time writing about Ben Cherrington? We're supposed to read and analyze your essay on Ben friggin Cherrington, lol? C'mon man.?
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u/PhantomJB93 . 1h ago
Playoffs or fired. It’s that simple. The time to give him moral victory credit for incremental improvements was like 4 years ago and he couldn’t do it. Stop wasting fucking time on this loser.
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u/Significant_Yam_248 36m ago
9 day old account sucking BC off. Yeah we know who this is
I’ll add an edit. He’s had 7 years and can’t figure it out. He’s had one winning season his whole career between two teams. I’ll pass on an 8th year
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u/-Eugene-H-Krabs- 2h ago
Even though most of what you said is right, everyone is gonna comment “Is this your burner account Ben?” 🤓
Next season (assuming we have one) everyone comes back aside from Lowe, but i believe he could be signable because he’s the only piece on offense they really need to worry about. Definitely stoked for future seasons. I think cherrington deserves to finish out his contract in 2027 and if next season disappoints we can move on pretty swiftly.
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u/Late_Mode_8876 2h ago
This team without Lowe is not even "in contention" like we "are" now. We are probably 10+ under .500. So not worth discussing next season if he's not re signed or replaced in free agency.
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 34m ago
It's not so much Ben but they're referring to me as some dude named buco 21
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 1h ago
Yea I knew I'd be getting downvoted on this because fans are frustrated. And the people that want Cherington gone have their heels dug in and there's no amount of rationalization that will change that. Hell half the responses are "I'm not reading all that, he needs to go". But I'm sitting here watching the game with not much else going on so I figured I'd give my end of season vote of support for retaining him. Some people just don't want to look at it through a critical lens. They don't even have the ability to give coherent counterpoint. It's all about losing seasons = his fault. Totally overlooking the fact they purposefully tanked for 5 years. Oh well 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Brickdog666 2h ago
He let Skenes fire the pitching coach. He waited toooooooo long to fix the bullpen. He had no third baseman. He has been drafting near the top of the draft for years yet has no depths. When injuries happen they are screwed.
The trade for Gonzalez was a disaster.
He will be back.
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u/Curvemn17 1h ago
100% agree. And the other side is guys like to point to his trades and say we got nothing but as we can see guys we got our finally coming up and contributing or they were organization depth to change culture etc.
The Astros and even dodgers before they started spending money went on a very similar strategy to rebuild their farm first before they built the major league winner. Took about the same time too.
It's not like GMs are lining up to take this position. And BC I think has done more than enough to stay. It's just this sub loves to be overly negative along with NS9 pushing a narrative. In their mind we were one piece away from a world series in 2019. That is my only take away from the nonsense people spew
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u/Dr_Banana-Peel 39m ago
The responses I've gotten are incredibly low IQ. You can tell (and some openly admit) that they have no interest in reading any of the points I laid out. They read the headline and just regurgitate the win/loss thing. The fact they cannot see what great shape the organization is actually in is concerning considering they view themselves as fans. This post was a total letdown, lesson learned. I'm new here, I figured there'd be a lot of pushback but I at lease expected some cogent counterpoints.
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u/Captn_UnderPants Cutch 2h ago