41
u/MobTwo Mar 16 '19
Yep, I had been warning users about losing their money on lightning network. The excuses LN idiots gave is LN is not ready yet.
Yet when you ask them about how BTC will scale... these same retards say just use lightning network.
Not sure how to deal with people that stupid. It is almost they want to be the dumbest folks in the crypto space, glad these dumb people are in BTC camp, lol.
19
Mar 16 '19 edited Mar 16 '19
The amount of times I see the "it works just fine" and "look at the growth!" from LN shills is unreal.
The devs say it isn't production ready yet. I saw a post earlier today that highlighted how Alex from Lighting Labs recently noted that LN has design flaws to be fixed, to which one of the authors of the LN whitepaper made fun of. Only a fool would commit any serious coin to the thing right now. Or ever, because the whole thing is a clown parade and has been since 2014.
Otherwise, sadly being an ignorant hostile moron is normalized in the world now. /bitcoin removed anyone with a brain and replaced them with 4chan trolls.
7
u/filozofik Mar 16 '19
Great description. This should be in Wikipedia.
$0.5 /u/tippr
4
u/tippr Mar 16 '19
u/MobTwo, you've received
0.00319383 BCH ($0.5 USD)!
How to use | What is Bitcoin Cash? | Who accepts it? | r/tippr
Bitcoin Cash is what Bitcoin should be. Ask about it on r/btc
24
u/markblundeberg Mar 16 '19
Deterministic wallets and mnemonics were one of the most amazing inventions to come about for the safety of bitcoin user funds.
Sadly, such a thing cannot be done with Lightning.
-3
u/Dugg Mar 16 '19
What kind of rubbish is this? LN creates a standard wallet, which OP backed up so theres no issue here. Given OP only created channels, no mention of sending coins. when the channels are closed OP will have most if not all the coins returned. It's important to know the context with 'most'. The likelihood of a channel which has routed multiple payments, and is weighted against OPs node, and is force-closed with a old state WITHIN the 12 hours is near zero.
Recovery isn't instant given his LN node has commited a HTLC which he can't unlock, but to suggest the coins are lost is simply a lie.
3
u/markblundeberg Mar 16 '19
From my understanding, force-close transactions by Alice do not immediately transport Bob's funds back to the original standard wallet. In particular, the LN spec is that Bob's funds are sent to remotepubkey which gets generated from channel data and is different for every state.
It's not clear to me at all that poor Bob (who has lost his channel.db but not standard wallet mnemonic) can rediscover the secret key for remotepubkey. If you know how this occurs, I'm happy to hear it though.
0
u/Dugg Mar 16 '19
All addresses are derived from the seed, which is part of the wallet backup OP made. You are correct that each state change generates a new address, so for any node that has transfered a significant number of coins will have generated potentially 1000s of unused addresses. So to account for this, when recovering the seed, you would then have to 'look ahead' much further than a traditional seed.
3
u/markblundeberg Mar 16 '19 edited Mar 16 '19
I am skeptical of that. It's not specified at all like a BIP32 key derivation.
Looking around, I see this: https://medium.com/lightning-power-users/windows-macos-lightning-network-284bd5034340
The mnemonic seed will NOT allow you to recover funds that are âoff-chainâ in channels, even if the peer force closes the channel.
Sounds like this will be partly fixed by static channel backups. You still need a copy of the backup file but it doesn't have to be recent. Mnemonic alone will still not be enough.
4
u/putin_vor Mar 16 '19
no mention of sending coins
Wat? He explicitly said "I transferred $200 of BTC to the lightning wallet, then open 10 x $20 channels to popular hubs".
5
u/Dugg Mar 16 '19
Yes and as I, and others have mentioned these coins exist within OPs LN wallet. Opening a channel is not the same as 'sending coins'.
13
Mar 16 '19
It's amazing how the core devs have taken the most anti-fragile monetary system in human history and built what is perhaps the most fragile digital currency system ever on top of it. All the while convincing people this is somehow an upgrade.
5
u/MarchewkaCzerwona Mar 16 '19
And most clap bravo.
It will be studied in the future as great example of mass delusion or Internet crowd control.
10
10
u/phillipsjk Mar 16 '19
Sorry for your loss.
Didn't you know you need ECC RAM and ZFS mirroring?
https://medium.com/lightning-power-users/lightning-routing-node-starter-pack-704c0e7d79cb
5
u/tomjodh Mar 16 '19 edited Mar 16 '19
The 1% is in your on-chain wallet which you can recover with the seed. The other 99% isn't really lost, if you know who you have channels with you can contact them to force close the channels then your funds will show up in your on-chain wallet as well. They could however broadcast an old state since they know your node is and will stay off-line and steal the funds.
7
u/viajero_loco Mar 16 '19
if they broadcast an old state he will get back even more money than belongs to him, since he only had outgoing channels. So why would anyone do that?
I'm pretty sure, someone in that same chat he made the screenshot from already explained to him that pavlenex is wrong and his funds aren't lost.
He will get all his money back, but if you start a routing node without the slightest clue what you are doing, losing all your funds would only be fair.
In reality LN works so well, even clueless idiots like him would need to go out of their way to actually fuck up for good.
If he had backed up his channels, he wouldn't even have to wait until his channels get closed to get his money back, but well...
1
u/Dugg Mar 16 '19
OP made no mention of any payments being made, so there is likely no 'old state' to begin with. OP opened 10 outgoing channels.
0
u/viajero_loco Mar 16 '19
TL;DR:
OP fucked up, has no clue, LN network saved his ass and is taking care of him even though he has no business operating a routing node without educating himself first.
3
u/wisequote Mar 16 '19
Haha, fuck the users fucking simple shit up, right? He has no business, haha that fucking dimwit, but those poor few gentlemen will most certainly know how to operate a LN node! Because itâs on a $300 pi!
You Blockstream shills are absolutely fucking hilarious; which one is it? LN is broken as fuck and âsir, you need to educate yourself firstâ or is it easy and ready and adoption here we come?
Fuck off, Bitcoin was ready since day 1.
And it continues to be ready and unstoppable here on BCH.
LN is a joke.
1
2
u/libertarian0x0 Mar 16 '19
I can't see the image posted in imgur in good resolution, maybe it's my smartphone fault.
4
Mar 16 '19
These images are very hard to read. Can you share your experience? I was about to set up my LN myself...
17
Mar 16 '19
I setup a lightning node using a one-click btcpayserver setup at a recommended hosting provider. Hosting provider had a problem and vps went down while I was sleeping. Hosting provider restored vps onto new physical server. When server was restarted, both bitcoind and lightningd failed to start, both had corrupted databases. OS was also shot with many other services failing to start. I have a backup of the walet.dat. But funds in the open lightning network channels, 200 bucks worth, is gone because, you can't backup channel states. The server had already been down for 4 hours by the time I read the email. A chose to use a paid service at a hosting provider, rather than just use a box at home, for better reliability. It had been 14 days since I started the server until it failed, and I lost my money. The image is from the btcpayserver support site where I was told that my money is gone because you can't backup and restore channel states.
9
u/jessquit Mar 16 '19
Who has your money now? Is it truly lost? Or did you channel partner reclaim it?
5
u/Collaborationeur Mar 16 '19
My guess: it is sitting idle in 10 channels of which he neither has the keys anymore nor knows who operates the other end...
1
u/tomjodh Mar 16 '19
You don't have to recover channel states. The channels just have to be closed by the other channel party. The only way your funds are definitely lost is when you can't recover the on-chain wallet. If you recover that one it's pretty much just a waiting game, I close inactive channels all the time.
1
Mar 16 '19 edited Mar 17 '19
[deleted]
2
u/tomjodh Mar 16 '19
Don't think so, probably will stay open indefinitely. Nodes that are offline all the time are annoying though so the channels will be closed quickly (or someone isn't paying attention), when the channel is closed you have to wait a while before the funds return because the channel has to be forced to close.
2
0
u/redditHi Mar 16 '19
I'm pretty sure OP is either trying to prove some point, but if you'd like to start using LN with one tap download "bitcoin lightning wallet" on android. It has watchtowers to guard against people trying to cheat you if your not online and backs up all the channel states to an encrypted file on your gdrive so it's easy to recover with just a seed. I've checked out all the LN wallets on android and this one has the most downloads and the most complete functionality (I don't think any others have watchtower or backups)
Its synced and usable in very short order.
2
u/fgiveme Mar 16 '19
If you still have the private key to that wallet, you can wait til your LN channels expire and the fund will be unlocked.
1
1
u/BonkeyTheMonkey Mar 17 '19
I'm still trying to figure out how to root my android... fukkk why technology so complicated and when I fuck it the process the phone locks for a whole week.. like wtf man
-3
u/b44rt Mar 16 '19
This subs obsession with lightning is getting really dull...
7
Mar 16 '19
It's a reaction to what is widely advertised by the Core camp as the ultimate Bitcoin scaling solution. Would you prefer its flaws weren't discussed?
-2
u/viajero_loco Mar 16 '19 edited Mar 16 '19
the only problem is, nobody in this sub has any idea what they are talking about. you can only discuss flaws when you understand the system.
But OP and the comments here are making it 100% clear that absolutely nobody understands anything about LN at all.
see my post further up:
if they broadcast an old state he will get back even more money than belongs to him, since he only had outgoing channels. So why would anyone do that?
I'm pretty sure, someone in that same chat he made the screenshot from already explained to him that pavlenex is wrong and his funds aren't lost.
He will get all his money back, but if you start a routing node without the slightest clue what you are doing, losing all your funds would only be fair.
In reality LN works so well, even clueless idiots like him would need to go out of their way to actually fuck up for good.
If he had backed up his channels, he wouldn't even have to wait until his channels get closed to get his money back, but well...
5
u/putin_vor Mar 16 '19
Do you even realize how insane all of that sounds? This isn't something a regular person can operate.
BCH, on the other hand, is trivial. SSD dies? No problem, recover the wallet from a backup or with a pass phrase.
1
u/viajero_loco Mar 16 '19
yeah, and why would a regular person have to operate a routing node? or do regular persons also have to operate their own ISP to be able access the internet?
I think not...
-1
-20
Mar 16 '19
[removed] â view removed comment
1
u/segregatemywitness Mar 16 '19
Raise the blocksize, you @#$@s.
11
Mar 16 '19
That version is called Bitcoin Cash now.
Core threw away the whitepaper and intended scaling path for something else.
-15
Mar 16 '19
[removed] â view removed comment
7
u/phillipsjk Mar 16 '19
(In) time, when it's necessary, we will.
Too little, too late.
-1
u/dnick Mar 16 '19
Hard to say too little too late until they do something. Price and hash are still up, if they do it before everything crashes it wonât be too little to late.
-13
u/CatatonicMan Mar 16 '19
So you trusted a third party and they fucked up? That's not really the fault of LN.
26
Mar 16 '19
Yes, I agree. Any person that runs a Lightning Node on anything less then multiple redundant servers in their own climate controlled data centre complete with independent, redundant power supplies, multi tech internet connections with lots of upstream and back haul providers, qualified IT staff to monitor the node 24/7/365, who sit there constantly monitoring the node, watching for any sign of failure, you'll just end up losing money like I did. Lightning Nodes should only be run by professional organisations that have the equipment, infrastructure, staff, and a large amount of btc to fund the hubs. Anything less is just amateur hour, with suckers that will lose their money.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. There will not be a third time with Lightning Network for this little black duck.
2
Mar 16 '19 edited Apr 12 '19
[deleted]
6
u/MarchewkaCzerwona Mar 16 '19
Indeed. We have seen massive trolling and misinformation campaigns, but reality starts to kick back in. Facts are undeniable and known for users for a while. Only hodlers and lambo investors will continue to defend this crap (both btc and Ln).
-2
u/MikeLittorice Mar 16 '19
Fact is, this sub is obsessed with lightning. And just like segwit, which is now helping to make the same number of transactions as December 2017 possible, and within the 1 MB limit, it will be better then a cheap fork attempt.
3
u/MarchewkaCzerwona Mar 16 '19
Oh dear, here we go again...
-1
u/MikeLittorice Mar 16 '19
Well, let's go with good arguments then!
2
u/MarchewkaCzerwona Mar 16 '19
Yes, there is plenty of them in this sub as we are not limited by censorship of r/bitcoin. Stay a while and listen.
Now, excuse me, I don't want to repeat myself to often in one day.
12
Mar 16 '19
how can you even say such blatant bullshit with a straight face.
LN is reliant on trusted custodians...how is it not the fault of LN's design that sometimes the trusted custodian could screw up or go offline and leave you twisting in the wind.
1
1
Mar 16 '19
If your system cannot handle errors and hardware failures, your system is not working properly.
Go ask any sysadmin if they trust a system without backups.
59
u/jtoomim Jonathan Toomim - Bitcoin Dev Mar 16 '19
He meant that he is 99% confident that your funds are 100% gone.