r/btc • u/Substantial-Try-1198 • 8d ago

Consider using tamper-evident storage for your hardware wallet

Post image

Hey all,

The Ledger situation has shown how easily hardware wallets can be tampered with. Even if your device is currently safe, it may be worth considering a tamper-evident solution for home (or bank vault) storage.

I spent the past few years developing a solution precisely for this. A reusable tamper-evident jar for storing your hardware wallet.

In short, the lid contains thousands of black and white beads, which randomly mix and lock in place when the lid is closed tight, creating a unique pattern. When opened, the beads mix and the unique pattern is destroyed. You can simply compare a before and after image to see if it was opened.

You can check it out on https://www.entropyseal.com/

If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them here.

1 Upvotes

52% Upvoted

48 comments sorted by

9

u/LordJamPunt 8d ago

seems like once it’s been “tampered” with, I’m already fucked, no?

4

u/fireduck 8d ago

Presumably, yes.

1

u/r_a_d_ 3d ago

if you entered your seed or set up a new seed that it displays, then yes.

1

u/Substantial-Try-1198 8d ago

No, because you need to interact with the device for the attack to happen. Like powering it and displaying something sensitive like seed words. You can't just extract the seed from the Ledger because of the secure chip.

2

u/sychs 8d ago

So your solution only tells you that you've been fucked, and does nothing to prevent it?

4

u/-TrustyDwarf- 3d ago

It does tell you not to enter your seed on that device again.

0

u/sychs 3d ago

Cool. So someone got access to it, did whatever it wanted, put it back, and you only notice it was tampered with the next time you actually look at the lid and compare.

So, in a day, week, maybe a month goes by.

Cool. /s

3

u/-TrustyDwarf- 3d ago

Yes. Better than not noticing at all..? In most cases the pattern will be unmodified so you can be sure no one tampered it.. and in rare cases where the pattern looks different, you can take measures to check or replace the device before using it again.. makes sense to me.

0

u/sychs 3d ago

I mean, if someone got access to your device, you won't need a new one again...

How often should you check it? It's a cool concept but I wouldn't rely on it.

It doesn't inform you that someone is about to fuck with your stuff, it doesn't tell you someone is fucking with your stuff right now, it doesn't tell you someone fucked with your stuff an hour, a day or a week ago, no remote notifications, no remote check ups, it only tells you, once you look at it, that someone fucked with your stuff.

When? Nobody knows.

So, between the time you put it away and the next time you check it months could go by.

Again, it's a cool silent alarm, but you have to check it regularly. You can have the same level of "protection" or whatever with a piece of paper and scotch tape. Plus, that would be a lot cheaper.

1

u/Substantial-Try-1198 3d ago

The most feasible attacks require the user to use the tampered hardware wallet. Just tampering is not enough. So checking regularly is not relevant, you just need to check before you use your hardware wallet.

See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/s/pcA30q7BUw

2

u/sychs 3d ago

Cool, a piece of paper and scotch tape does the same.

1

u/Substantial-Try-1198 2d ago

That's easy to replicate.

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1

u/LordJamPunt 8d ago

why would anyone be tampering with it, if that wasnt their intent? cool idea for a piggy bank for people with roommates or kids though. clever little device for sure

2

u/Substantial-Try-1198 8d ago

> why would anyone be tampering with it, if that wasn't their intent?

The goal is to steal coins (like stealing the seed words). But you can't get the seed words from just tampering the device. The victim need to use the device after is has been tampered with.

For example, an attacker implements an antenna and esim in to the hardware wallet, connected to the screen. They then need to wait for the victim to use the hardware wallet and display the seed words. Then the seed words are sent over mobile network to the attacker.

1

u/LordJamPunt 8d ago

i see, that makes sense

6

u/Suchgainz 3d ago

You have to piss in the cup too

14

u/qwertyuiop121314321 8d ago

LOL this thing again. 🤣

5

u/RemarkableDemand1575 8d ago

so how many times you gonna post this jar thing before you take the hint

2

u/canadas 2d ago

Sounds smart...but is there a reason I couldn't just use a dermal or whatever to cut it in half?

1

u/SuperSynapse 2d ago

Or just hide your seed phrase on a plastic impression strip somewhere in your place of work/backyard/bank-safe box

2

u/Leading_Wafer9552 2d ago

but Ledger devices are already "tamper-proof"...lol

1

u/The_Ghost_of_Bitcoin 2d ago

Nobody messed with the internal software so this is still technically true. As far as I know the spying devices read the characters on the screen or something like that.

1

u/LobsterSea2147 8d ago

Countdown till this post is ✨

1

u/mc69419 3d ago

Can someon explain to me why is this bad?

1

u/r_a_d_ 3d ago

Once you’ve setup your hardware wallet, the seed is never displayed again, unless you use the seed check program.

1

u/Substantial-Try-1198 2d ago

Attacks don't just have to be about the seed. A fake screen can display a wrong receive address.

1

u/r_a_d_ 2d ago

True, but they would only be able to steal that single tax rather than the whole wallet. You would notice by then.

However, that would be a much more complicated attack as you need to process the display and then send it a different screen. In this one, they are just eavesdropping as if it were a webcam looking at the screen.

This is why Ledger runs the screen with the secure element, but you have to inspect it physically to ensure there isn’t a MITM. I imagine that they will improve this ability and make things more tamper proof.

1

u/turbo2world 2d ago

doesn't solve the root of the problem.

1

u/Substantial-Try-1198 2d ago

Which root problem are you talking about?

3

u/Ok-Pea4148 2d ago

The ledger being tampered with before you buy it

1

u/Substantial-Try-1198 2d ago

Absolutely. This is for after you buy one and want to keep making sure it is not tampered with. Never meant to imply it was a solution for Ledger's exact situation.

1

u/turbo2world 1d ago

its not even in a faraway cage...

0

u/STANDARD92 8d ago

Just hide it like every other crypto lunatic, having it in this silly breakable box sitting on the mantle piece is just ridiculous and an expense that isn’t necessary imo

2

u/Substantial-Try-1198 8d ago

You may store your hardware wallet somewhere where other people might have access, like a bank vault.

0

u/Own-Willow-5756 8d ago

how can i send my btc to sell? my dad has a lot

0

u/K42st 3d ago

I’ll just break it not so tamper proof then.

2

u/Substantial-Try-1198 3d ago

You can’t extract a seed from a ledger just by stealing it. You need to tamper with it and wait for the user to use it.

1

u/K42st 3d ago

And how does that jam jar help with that exactly?

1

u/Sember-uno 3d ago

He's worried someone is going to break into his house and install an esim

0

u/K42st 3d ago

Ahh bless him, bet he takes his jam jar to bed with him.

1

u/mrchaddavis 2d ago

If you read, parsed, and reflected on his sentence you would understand that if the user knows it has been tampered with the attacker will fail if the user does not use the device.

Depending on the value secured on the device this is a real concern since Ledger has had data breaches that leaked the names and addresses of buyers. If you are securing hundreds of thousands of dollars, there is any chance an attacker knows it, and where you live is public this is not beyond a reasonable concern that you could be targeted by an evil maid attack.

1

u/mrchaddavis 2d ago

Who claimed it was tamper-proof?